Opal Discussion and Observations

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion
Aurora
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Aurora »

I’ve been patiently waiting for this too.

Apparently, a message is supposed to pop up on the reader within its last 30 days, but I have not seen it online.
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boronia
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

How many people take notice of messages on the reader?

The information on TfNSW is a bit vague:
Opal balance expiry

The value on your Opal card is valid for up to 9 years.

Any remote top ups such as online, over the phone or through the Opal Travel App must be collected within 60 days, by tapping on at an Opal reader. If you don't tap on at an Opal reader after 60 days, the pending amount will then be credited back to your nominated payment card.
I take this to relate to a card not being used for nine years. The value expires but not the physical card? Every time you top up, the clock resets? Does the chip have a defined life span?

In Melbourne a couple of years ago I had an "expired" Myki card. I couldn't use it or top it up, but I got a new card and got credit for the old balance.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by TheOpalUser »

Linto63 wrote: Sat Jan 02, 2021 6:16 pm IIRC Opal cards expire after 9 years. With the first trial commencing in December 2012, this will begin to take effect later this year. Hope there is a plan to communicate this.
https://transportnsw.info/document/2114 ... of-use.pdf
You will know when an Opal Card is about to expire as a card expiration message will appear on the reader display when you tap on an Opal Card Reader during the 30 day period prior to Planned Expiry
&
Forfeiture of Opal Card Balance: If you have a registered, reloadable Opal Card, you can apply for a transfer or refund of your Opal Card Balance in accordance with clause 75 for a period of up to 90 days after the date of cancellation or expiration of the Opal Card. If you do not do so, or you are not entitled to a refund in accordance with the Opal Refund and Balance Transfer Policy, you will forfeit the Opal Card Balance of that cancelled or expired Opal Card to us.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

boronia wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 7:25 am Does the chip have a defined life span?
The memory can "wear out" after sufficient write cycles. Also any card older than whatever limit is defined for a card can be removed off lists kept on a reader, though I don't know the maximum time they keep cards on a list to detect an issue at tap on; consider a card that had its balance transferred to another without being tapped at a reader again. I've also been told there is something you might call "silicone rot" - silicon chips can fail over time.

I've heard about some systems tailoring card expiry based on usage. Cards more frequently used would need to be replaced earlier.

Hopefully, they will inform registered card holders by email or SMS rather than leaving them to rely on reader messages. If they want to be really nice they would mail out replacement cards before the old cards expire in the same manner as payment card providers and perform an automatic balance transfer on first use.
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swtt
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by swtt »

School Opal cards are apparently being replaced (old cards replaced with new cards) this year from some of the comms that went out.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by mattyc »

Linto63 wrote:IIRC Opal cards expire after 9 years. With the first trial commencing in December 2012, this will begin to take effect later this year. Hope there is a plan to communicate this.
I’d be surprised if any of those cards are still around. I had one of the first batch for the initial city circle trial and that card lasted all of 18 months before it had to be replaced. My second and third cards lasted no more than 24 months with 20+ uses a week.


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TheOpalUser
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by TheOpalUser »

swtt wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 9:16 pm School Opal cards are apparently being replaced (old cards replaced with new cards) this year from some of the comms that went out.
"Free" cards have an expiry of 5 years, reloadable cards are 9 years
mattyc wrote: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:12 pm
Linto63 wrote:IIRC Opal cards expire after 9 years. With the first trial commencing in December 2012, this will begin to take effect later this year. Hope there is a plan to communicate this.
I’d be surprised if any of those cards are still around. I had one of the first batch for the initial city circle trial and that card lasted all of 18 months before it had to be replaced. My second and third cards lasted no more than 24 months with 20+ uses a week.


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Mine still works! Card #273.

Albeit I can count the number of times I've used it on one hand for the last year.
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moa999
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by moa999 »


BeauGiles wrote: Mine still works! Card #273.
Same here for #344x
From the desktop site it's done 9450 transactions (each tap is a transaction)

Which seems to average at about 11 trips a week over the period. (/2/8.2/52)
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

In today’s daily COVID update the Transport For NSW boss has told people with unregistered opal cards to register them for contract tracing
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

With replacement cards, it's possible to do what Singapore did - and if the cards are not showing signs of failure, extend their validity when they are used.

The 'replacement' time is largely governed by the manufactures recommendations on card life - the flash memory has limited lifespan.

Also card expiry does give you the opportunity to 'expire out' older now insecure technology. London Oyster didn't have an expire, so TfL still have to support MiFare Classic based Oyster cards which can be cloned these days. Still not cheap to do, but the equipment and software is not that hard to get.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

matthewg wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:48 am With replacement cards, it's possible to do what Singapore did - and if the cards are not showing signs of failure, extend their validity when they are used.

The 'replacement' time is largely governed by the manufactures recommendations on card life - the flash memory has limited lifespan.
SE Queensland does this with their go cards - I know as I had my go card (issued around 2013) extended to 2029/2030 by taking it to a train station for which they duly extended the expiry.

Whether it's wise to extend it out that far is another story, but they allow it.

I've been through 2 Opal cards already (first one was issued as part of the original trial with 5 significant digits at the end), and the worst time for one to stop working is when you have an inspector checking tickets, which is exactly what happened when my first card failed.

Hopefully the Opal digital card (of which I am part of the trial) is easy enough to read from the inspector's device, since it doesn't show trip details in the app until over 2 hours after the trip is completed.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

pgt wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:19 pm and the worst time for one to stop working is when you have an inspector checking tickets, which is exactly what happened when my first card failed.
And how did this get resolved/not resolved?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by TheOpalUser »

pgt wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:19 pm
matthewg wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 7:48 am With replacement cards, it's possible to do what Singapore did - and if the cards are not showing signs of failure, extend their validity when they are used.

The 'replacement' time is largely governed by the manufactures recommendations on card life - the flash memory has limited lifespan.
SE Queensland does this with their go cards - I know as I had my go card (issued around 2013) extended to 2029/2030 by taking it to a train station for which they duly extended the expiry.

Whether it's wise to extend it out that far is another story, but they allow it.

I've been through 2 Opal cards already (first one was issued as part of the original trial with 5 significant digits at the end), and the worst time for one to stop working is when you have an inspector checking tickets, which is exactly what happened when my first card failed.

Hopefully the Opal digital card (of which I am part of the trial) is easy enough to read from the inspector's device, since it doesn't show trip details in the app until over 2 hours after the trip is completed.
Contactless transactions are visible within minutes. I've had my digital Opal scanned twice since the trial started and they could see all trips.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

boxythingy wrote: Fri Jan 22, 2021 1:39 am
pgt wrote: Thu Jan 21, 2021 9:19 pm and the worst time for one to stop working is when you have an inspector checking tickets, which is exactly what happened when my first card failed.
And how did this get resolved/not resolved?
Probably a fortuitous thing that this was when Opal was 8 journeys then free, and the trip before (a bus trip) was a zero charged one.
Inspector could tell that the card wasn't readable, so asked me to login to the Opal account and show the last few trips.
When he saw the last one was a zero charge one and was within the last hour, he said to make sure I call to get a replacement card and just show the card when exiting (I was alighting at Chatswood Station on that trip).

Not sure that's what they'd do now (and Opal digital card nor plastic card doesn't update right away last time I checked), but just counting myself lucky not to get a $200 fine even though I had a valid trip (was able to tap on).
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

I wonder what legal basis can they instruct a passenger to show bank statements or Opal account (separate things to the actual transactional product)

Surely if they want to find out, they can manually input the number into their app to check it out themselves?

Also, does this sound like an Opal Card pop up top up spot job?

https://www.adecco.com.au/call-centre-a ... rs/3167285
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

I'd say it is for people to work in the Transport Info booths at central to CQ. I think they do "sell" Opal cards there.

They are well versed in telling people to "look it up on your phone".
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

I thought those transport booths were defunct?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

You are thinking of the STA Transit Shops. The current booths are operated by TfNSW and cover all transport modes. Think transportnsw.info with live people.

The booth at Central is located on the Grand Concourse.
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Hands-free Opal bag tags trialled on public transport

Post by Geo101 »

Reported in The Sunday Telegraph today (paywalled)

Commuters could soon tap on and off public transport without touching anything, according to the state’s transport chiefs.

More than 800 high school students from Magdalene Catholic College in Sydney’s south west are the first kids in the city to trial a new frictionless ticketing system.

Students at the Smeaton Grange campus have been given special Opal tags to put on their school bags.

The technology takes away the need to tap on and off – it’s an automatic process as the scanner picks up the tags – like a e-tag for commuters.

The tag contains a microchip that can be picked up by radio technology from 2m away when kids jump on the buses. Transport Minister Andrew Constance said the new Opal student bag tags eliminate the need to physically tap on and tap off the bus with an Opal card.

“This can lead to improved travel times as students are able to get on and off much more quickly because they don’t need to spend time trying to find their Opal card,” Mr Constance told The Sunday Telegraph.

“We also know that some students frequently forget to tap on and tap off, so this technology will mean more accurate passenger count data which will help us to plan our services in the future.”

Since COVID-19 struck the front Opal readers on buses have been closed to protect drivers.

The Opal Student Bag Tags technology has been trialled with 103 students in regional NSW, however transport chiefs are keen to see whether the system works in Sydney.

The concept is being considered for use on a wider basis for regional communities, according to the Transport for NSW annual report

Transport for NSW ticketing solutions development director Kurt Brissett said this trial is “just the beginning”.
“If the trial goes well we could eventually see it rolled out across the entire Opal network,” Mr Brissett said.

Magdalene Catholic College principal Matthew McMahon said they’re “delighted to be a part of this trial and to work with Transport for NSW”.

“The bag tags will enable students to board and alight the bus quickly and assist Transport in planning services,” he said.

Transport expert Peter Thornton said “hopefully this trial will determine if this technology can work for the rest of us as we move to a more contactless system”.

In September 2019 the entire Opal network became was updated to allow customers to pay with their credit or debit cards or linked devices.

Is there any non-paywalled articles regarding this trial?

EDIT: Page 62 in this annual report https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system ... me%201.PDF

Using technology to make it easy for students and operators

To make it faster and easier for school students to catch their school bus, Transport trialled new ticketing technology in regional NSW. In an Australian public transport first, 103 students used Opal Student Bag Tags in place of Opal cards. Bag tags are attached to the outside of the school bag and an on–board reader located next to the driver automatically detects a radio frequency signal when the student boards and leaves the bus.

The machine then sends the data to Transport for NSW.

The ticketing trial uses a frictionless radio frequency identification technology and
makes it faster and easier for students. It also offers a better way to measure patronage.

The concept is being considered for use on a wider basis for regional communities.
Last edited by Geo101 on Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by stupid_girl »

I don't believe it will work well for commuters with multiple cards.

If the sole purpose is to obtain passenger count, it may work well. If the purpose is to charge fare, it is going to be troublesome.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

It's good for dealing with the widespread problem of schoolkids not bothering to tap on and off in return for their taxpayer funded ride they have zero gratitude for.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

This school kid opal bag tag thing might work then Transport For NSW has to fix the bigger issue of people running their card balance down to $0 before topping up the funds on the card if they can find a way to warn people that they have low balance then that will help cut down on the numbers of people that fare evade due to having insufficient funds on their cards
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Geo101 »

stupid_girl wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:52 pm I don't believe it will work well for commuters with multiple cards.

If the sole purpose is to obtain passenger count, it may work well. If the purpose is to charge fare, it is going to be troublesome.
Would I be right in assuming that this trial requires extra gear such as a RFID scanner? Would it be separate to the existing Opal scanner hardware?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

Frictionless, since when did existing tap on and off required any friction?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 7:14 pm This school kid opal bag tag thing might work then Transport For NSW has to fix the bigger issue of people running their card balance down to $0 before topping up the funds on the card if they can find a way to warn people that they have low balance then that will help cut down on the numbers of people that fare evade due to having insufficient funds on their cards
The screen indicates when a low balance is reached, and I think there is a distinctive tone.

But I doubt many people bother to look at the screen. So often I see people repeatedly trying to tap when the screen says CLOSED
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