Opal Discussion and Observations

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Swift
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

boronia wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:40 pm There are still a lot of shops that won't use EFT for less than $10, so people are probably conditioned to feel guilty about using it for lesser amounts everywhere.
Small minded shop owners usually!!
That's where New Zealand is ahead of Australia (among many other things!) where eftpos availability is a given e everywhere you go, but here in backwardsville, you still can't be sure you can make purchases everywhere with a card, which is ridiculous. It's probably the bank's fault as well. Charging the percentage they do these days is a sneaky rort. If a royal commission can't fix their behaviour, what can?
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Linto63
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Not so much the percentage but the fixed fee. Some businesses do not generate the turnover to justify. Plus unlike cash, EFT sales can't be hidden from the taxman.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

boronia wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:40 pm There are still a lot of shops that won't use EFT for less than $10,
Or add a surcharge.
It's the smaller businesses that don't have the clout to negotiate a better EFT rate with their banks that are the losers here. The large business and Opal probably pay very low transaction fee rates compared to those small businesses and so can afford to let many small transactions through which would cripple small cash strapped busineses with fees.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

They have to reduce the fees accordingly, but that's on the presumption the banks have a community conscience!
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

matthewg wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:49 pm
boronia wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:40 pm There are still a lot of shops that won't use EFT for less than $10,
Or add a surcharge.
It's the smaller businesses that don't have the clout to negotiate a better EFT rate with their banks that are the losers here. The large business and Opal probably pay very low transaction fee rates compared to those small businesses and so can afford to let many small transactions through which would cripple small cash strapped busineses with fees.
The EFT rate is just one of dozens of overheads that businesses have to factor into their shelf costs. It is not rocket science to work out the cost to the business and add a couple of cents to retail prices. A physical surcharge is just another gouge like the "public holiday surcharge" in restaurants.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

boronia wrote: A physical surcharge is just another gouge like the "public holiday surcharge" in restaurants.
You are aware that restaurants have to pay up to a public holiday loading that can be in excess of 200%?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

And are you aware that the extra pay on a holiday adds only around 0.5% to the annual wages bill.

Sure they have a higher cash flow on these days, often offset by higher turnover anyway. Would you suggest that restaurants have a surcharge on other higher cash flow days, like when the monthly electricity bill has to be paid, or the annual insurance premium is due? Considering that wages make up only part of the meal cost, a 10-15% surcharge to cover a 0.5% wage bump is pure gouging.

Supermarkets have to pay penalty rates on public holidays, but I've never noticed Coles hitting me with a surcharge. If other businesses can amortise this extra cost over a year, why can't restaurants?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Linto63 »

You need to look at what percentage of the costs on the day attributable to labour, not amortise it over a year. Labour will make up a much higher percentage of a restaurant's costs than that of a supermarket. A Coles or Woolworths will also have a much stronger balance sheet that can absorb ebbs and flows in costs.

If the surcharge is the difference between a restaurant turning a profit or racking up a loss for the day, take it away and the proprietor will probably keep the doors shut. Of course if you think it is a rip off, there is a simple answer...don't use the service.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by jpp42 »

The other difference is that supermarkets can reduce their labour somewhat on public holidays by not scheduling any deliveries or stocking/filling - only the basic customer service staff are rostered. Hours are typically shortened as well. Restaurants meanwhile need a nearly full staff as there's not much work that can be done in advance.

I'm not concerned about public holiday surcharges as it's very easy to avoid as a consumer.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Merc1107 »

matthewg wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 4:49 pm
boronia wrote: Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:40 pm There are still a lot of shops that won't use EFT for less than $10,
Or add a surcharge.
It's the smaller businesses that don't have the clout to negotiate a better EFT rate with their banks that are the losers here. The large business and Opal probably pay very low transaction fee rates compared to those small businesses and so can afford to let many small transactions through which would cripple small cash strapped busineses with fees.
Add in bank fees, and now the multi-billion dollar industry that runs the infrastructure for contactless payment. All of us are slugged for this 'convenience' (no, cards just make it easier to spend what isn't there). There are also the environmental externalities of building, running, disposing and replacing all this computer infrastructure. It would be an interesting exercise to study the true costs of cash vs electronic payments.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Passenger 57 »

boxythingy wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:14 pm How does the customer-tax payer benefit from this?
The Minister makes the following claim in the article:
What we are doing is incentivising the interchange so less people drive.
If true that's not entirely unreasonable but the level of rebate can be questioned. We also don't know the commercial arrangements behind this, the private operators involved might well be covering the rebate. As long as this sort of thing doesn't undermine the existing unprofitable feeder services I have no problem with it in principle. Personally, I think that it will encourage use of the private services rather than changing car use and don't understand why the MFF is part of the scheme.
That means not only does TfNSW lose the entire $2.52 revenue, the customer is gifted $0.48 credit and Uber (private enterprise whose goal is not to provide a social benefit) makes a buck because the next bus had just left as the train arrived or isn't timetabled until 30-60min time?
It's possible the rebate will be applied in such a manner as to only discount the first/last PT trip to zero as occurred with rebates under the 50% discount regime.
Isn't this effectively state sanctioned farebox recovery reduction, and outsourcing public transport service operation to private enterprise?
We already outsource public transport operation. In theory. there's nothing wrong with that unless it results in a detriment to some of the stake-holders. In practice, does it it ever not result in a detriment to passengers and workers? I do recall at least one report of a US transit authority partnering with some car share service. That may be well be a superior option to the heavily subsidised on-demand bus services we run here at least where a small vehicle is sufficient for demand.
How will they continue justifying the message "fare evasion means less new services"?
Surely, you don't expect the Government to have a coherent policy.
This is essentially a government subsidy for Uber?
Sure seems that way but the level of subsidy may not be as great as you assume. A sensible agreement between the private and public parties here would recognise that both parties benefit. It seems to me that the private operators get the greater benefit and so should cover most of the costs of the rebate. However, I fear that the Minister's obsession with transport technology may have overridden sensible decision making. Like you, I would prefer that funds be put into improving feeder services for all, rather than the people who can afford expensive transport options or can ride a bike!
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

Are train doors closing 30 or whatever seconds earlier from 3pm for example because that is considered "Peak (fare) hour"?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Aurora »

boxythingy wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:32 pm Are train doors closing 30 or whatever seconds earlier from 3pm for example because that is considered "Peak (fare) hour"?
What?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

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I am glad I am not the only one who does not understand the question.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by pgt »

boxythingy wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 11:32 pm Are train doors closing 30 or whatever seconds earlier from 3pm for example because that is considered "Peak (fare) hour"?
You're probably getting into conspiracy theory territory there, but at the same time I think they actually had a public trial a while ago in the CBD to see if it would improve on-time running during the peak period, not necessarily "from 3pm".

By that token I could also recall people waiting for 08:50am at Hurstville back in the day because that is when the computer used to allow selling off-peak [magstripe] tickets... but there was an express train at 08:51am, with the next one a 6 car train 12 minutes later at 09:03am.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

Train doors close earlier during peak hour right? With the peak widened windows, are all peak hour doors closing throughout the whole peak hour period or just within the actual core peak hour periods i.e. 4 to 6:30pm, not 3pm to 7pm.

In fact, I was on an off peak service where doors closed immediately as soon as all passengers alighted, resulting in just 5-10 seconds dwell time. The train was not late.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

boxythingy wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:44 pm In fact, I was on an off peak service where doors closed immediately as soon as all passengers alighted, resulting in just 5-10 seconds dwell time. The train was not late.
So the doors closed before passengers got on?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by swtt »

boronia wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:42 am
boxythingy wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:44 pm In fact, I was on an off peak service where doors closed immediately as soon as all passengers alighted, resulting in just 5-10 seconds dwell time. The train was not late.
So the doors closed before passengers got on?
Here's the dilemma: if the train is scheduled for departure at 16:18 (published timetable), then it means the train will almost certainly be gone at 16:18:00 if it were running "on time".

The guard is permitted to start closing doors at 16:17:40, 20 seconds prior to scheduled departure. That's also the time that the "1 min" countdown timer disappears from the SPIs on the platform.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boxythingy »

boronia wrote: Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:42 am
boxythingy wrote: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:44 pm In fact, I was on an off peak service where doors closed immediately as soon as all passengers alighted, resulting in just 5-10 seconds dwell time. The train was not late.
So the doors closed before passengers got on?
Correct
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Stu »

The TfNSW Transport Officers are employed and managed by Sydney Trains. The two former revenue protection units ( STA & CityRail) were dissolved which meant all employees had to reapply for current and newly created positions as the position name had changed from RPO to TO and subsequently the job description had also changed. This occurred in conjunction with the establishment of operating name and entity under TfNSW 'Sydney Trains' 01/07/2013.

Some private bus operators within the bus contract system are contractually required to conduct revenue protection.

TransdevNSW - bus division of Transdev. 2020.
https://www.transdevnsw.com.au/uploads/ ... 0(003).pdf

This document link is from 2012 which was the early establishment of the Police Public Transport Command (PTC) which relates directly to TfNSW reorganisation of revenue protection.
https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/as ... ommand.pdf

TfNSW / Sydney Trains - Transport Officer Information Pack. 20/03/2020.
https://files.jobs.nsw.gov.au/3koq7p
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

How come we hardly see them, you know, protecting revenue?
It's practically a free for all, unless you get a driver with the cajonas to refuse entry to the rats.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Stu »

Here are two media releases from 2015 that provide some information to the number of Transport Officers on the transport network.
Gladys Berejiklian MP.
Minister for Transport.

MEDIA RELEASE
Friday 13 February 2015

CRACKDOWN TO CUT FARE EVASION: NEW BARRIERS AND MORE TRANSPORT OFFICERS.


Minister for Transport Gladys Berejiklian today said new modern barriers at train stations and more Transport Officers to patrol the public transport network are being introduced as part of a crackdown on fare evasion.

These higher barriers have been installed for testing at Olympic Park station, ahead of a roll out at stations across the network.
Ms Berejiklian said the gates would be more reliable and improve security at stations, as well as reducing the number of customers travelling without a ticket and jumping the barrier as they exit the train station.

“Fare evasion costs taxpayers millions of dollars a year. The majority of customers do the right thing, but we are working hard to ensure that everyone using public transport has a valid ticket or Opal card,” Ms Berejiklian said.
“Cracking down on fare evasion means we can provide extra transport services and new infrastructure for customers.”

Ms Berejiklian said the new Opal-only gates are based on a similar style of gate which has been used in London for many years.
“The gates are designed to minimise fare evasion with higher gate paddles prohibiting behaviour such as jumping the gate or gate tailing where two people at a time pass through the gate,” Ms Berejiklian said.

There are now 150 Transport officers on the network working with the Police Transport Command to crack down on fare evasion, with more Transport Officers to start in coming months, she said.

“We will have an extra 65 transport officers patrolling the network in 2015, bringing the total to 215, with 32 of those new officers ready to start by April,” she said.

The extra numbers mean Transport Officers will be targeting more Sydney hot spots and other regional areas such as Wollongong, the Blue Mountains and the Central Coast.

“Transport officers have issued more than 150,000 fines since starting in May 2013 and are now using new technology to do their job more efficiently and crack down on serial offenders,” she said.

“All of these Transport Officers are equipped with new hand held smart phone devices which automatically send infringement notices in the post, meaning less time on administration and more time helping customers and reducing fare evasion.

“Later this month, a new Opal smart phone app will also be rolled out so Transport Officers can ensure customers have tapped on correctly.”
Transport Officers work closely with the Police Transport Command, who have also issued more than 120,000 infringements on the transport network for offences, including fare evasion.


Media: Rhys Haynes 0418 517 823
Andrew Constance.
Minister for Transport and Infrastructure.

MEDIA RELEASE.
Thursday, 11 June 2015.

FARE’S FAIR: 65 NEW TRANSPORT OFFICERS START WORK AS FARE EVASION DROPS.


A crackdown on public transport fare dodgers has seen fare evasion fall across the rail and ferry network, saving taxpayers $24 million last year.

The latest survey by the Bureau of Transport Statistics reveals fare evasion across the rail network has fallen by 2.1 percentage points since 2012 and fare evasion on ferries has decreased by 2 percentage points thanks to the NSW Government’s strategy.

The results come as the first of 65 new Transport Officers begin work across the public transport network, checking tickets and helping customers on trains, buses, ferries and light rail.

Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Andrew Constance said the survey, taken in November 2014, showed the improved results saved NSW taxpayers $24 million last year in lost ticket revenue, compared to 2012.

“We aren’t going to cop people trying to get a free ride, when the majority of customers are doing the right thing”, Mr Constance said.

“The more we recoup from the fares, the more services we can provide for everyone.
150 Transport Officers already work across the network with another 65 currently joining the ranks, bringing the total to 215 by the end of October. Since their inception Transport Officers have issued more than 190,000 fines and cautions.

Some results from the 2014 Fare Evasion Survey compared to 2012 show:
 Fare evasion across the whole rail network fell from 8.3 per cent to 6.2 per cent
 10 of the 11 Sydney Train lines saw a decrease in fare evasion
 Fare evasion on ferries fell from 4.9 per cent to 2.9 per cent
 Light rail fare evasion is 6.5 per cent. (Light rail was not surveyed in 2012.)

Buses were not included in the most recent survey as the Opal card rollout was underway during the survey period.

The sale of concession tickets from ticket machines at some stations has been limited, ensuring customers need to show proof of their entitlement. As a result, concession misuse has almost halved on rail, and is down by more than two-thirds on ferries.

While overall results were a strong improvement there are still some areas of concern.

“While fare evasion fell on the Western Line there are still too many customers not doing the right thing. It was also disappointing to see fare evasion increasing across most NSW TrainLink services,” Mr Constance said.

“We’ll be making these priority areas for our Transport Officers to tackle over the coming months to make sure people who travel without a valid ticket are caught.”

The Fare Compliance Survey results are available at www.bts.nsw.gov.au

MEDIA: Josh Murphy 0409 086 207
https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/sites/ ... 202015.pdf
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by matthewg »

Swift wrote: Tue Apr 13, 2021 1:01 pm How come we hardly see them, you know, protecting revenue?
It's practically a free for all, unless you get a driver with the cajonas to refuse entry to the rats.
Any driver who is injured 'protecting revenue by attempting to refuse entry to no payers will not get support from management. It will be the driver's fault for 'escalating' the situation. Same with station barrier staff challenging a barrier hopper.
It's not their job and if they are injured due to attempting 'revenue protection', they will not get support from management.

As for RPOs on buses, someone decided it was too risky to have them walk down the aisle of a moving bus, so when they do 'hit' a bus, the bus is held up while they check everyone on the STATIONARY bus.

Of course, the habitual fare evaders KNOW the drivers/station staff will not challenge them and only have to make a pretence at violence to make even the ones that think they should at least make an effort to 'protect their employer's revenue, back off.

Even RPOs get that treatment, as the habitual evaders know they don't have police powers, so just 'up yours' and keep going when asked to show their opal card for inspection.

Of course, the RPOs don't have any power after all the complaints about 'abuse of power' when they actually had the power to demand ID and hold for arrest. Instead of training their quasi-police force better, the government removed any power they had to enforce fare checks.

We even have people taking the government/Transport to court claiming that refusing to open the doors on a train when stopped due to disruption/breakdown between stations (and removing the passenger-accessible door releases) is 'illegal imprisonment'. So trying to enforce fare compliance with anything other than a light fluffy feather is considered overbearing police state stuff and off to court to claim damages.

Can't win.
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by Swift »

Good to see nothing's changed from middle managers drawing their well deserved salary packages on us.

Accommodating thieves leads to bigger crimes. Plus they make the most unruly passengers.
Don't they remember how New York tackled crime successfully in the 90s?
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Re: Opal Discussion and Observations

Post by boronia »

Even the Transport Command Police, who do have powers, show no interest in fare evaders.

Probably better to forgo the fare/fine because it will be cheaper than repairing the revenge vandalism on their next outing.
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