Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

General Transport Discussion not specific to one state
BAMBAM
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by BAMBAM »

https://www.custombus.com.au/element/cu ... lable-now/

Custom Denning Element available now!

26 May 2021 Posted at 22:11h by admin

Custom Denning are taking orders now for the new fully Australian built Element (BEV) Electric Bus.

TfNSW procurement panel #3 approved and available for delivery from Q3, 2021, full production models are currently online at the St Marys manufacturing plant, and thus far the data collected from the Element prototypes through trials with several operators is revealing some astonishing figures, with operator efficiencies ranging from 0.6 kW per Km, through to 0.8 kW per Km, depending on operating conditions, and indicating world leading electric bus performance.

Driver and operator feedback from trials has been extremely positive, with one bus operator placing immediate orders after having compared the Element to other electric buses.

To further strengthen their commitment to supply a complete solution , Custom Denning have partnered with Siemens to become a certified Siemens agent, enabling the company to offer bus operators a holistic end to end offering with a range of charger options, further complimented with training packages for drivers and technicians.

To learn more about Australia’s electric bus Element, please contact a member of our team.

Wonder who could that Bus Operator would be, Only known companies trialing the Element is State Transit, Busways and Premier Illawarra
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Campbelltown busboy
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

BAMBAM wrote: Sun May 30, 2021 6:38 pm https://www.custombus.com.au/element/cu ... lable-now/

Custom Denning Element available now!

26 May 2021 Posted at 22:11h by admin

Custom Denning are taking orders now for the new fully Australian built Element (BEV) Electric Bus.

TfNSW procurement panel #3 approved and available for delivery from Q3, 2021, full production models are currently online at the St Marys manufacturing plant, and thus far the data collected from the Element prototypes through trials with several operators is revealing some astonishing figures, with operator efficiencies ranging from 0.6 kW per Km, through to 0.8 kW per Km, depending on operating conditions, and indicating world leading electric bus performance.

Driver and operator feedback from trials has been extremely positive, with one bus operator placing immediate orders after having compared the Element to other electric buses.

To further strengthen their commitment to supply a complete solution , Custom Denning have partnered with Siemens to become a certified Siemens agent, enabling the company to offer bus operators a holistic end to end offering with a range of charger options, further complimented with training packages for drivers and technicians.

To learn more about Australia’s electric bus Element, please contact a member of our team.

Wonder who could that Bus Operator would be, Only known companies trialing the Element is State Transit, Busways and Premier Illawarra
There are only 2 operators in Sydney that can compare the Element with other electric bus brands. Those 2 operators are Intrrline and Transit Systems
BAMBAM
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by BAMBAM »

How does Interline and Transit Systems Sydney compare to the Element with their own electric bus if they haven’t trialled themselves?

Sure they can ask for data but I’m pretty sure they want to test the buses themselves.

State Transit had the Yutong which also went to Busways to be trialled as well which could be compared to the element with their own data, but Transit Systems and Interline would not have primary results as they haven’t tested themselves and would need State Transit or Busways results unless they trialled themselves.
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Custom Denning's montages of its range.

Image


Custom-Denning-range.jpg
Custom-Denning-range.jpg (149 KiB) Viewed 4692 times
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Centralian
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Centralian »

The Custom Denning website has been updated with information that the Denning Phoenix range and the Low Floors continue to be produced at the Acacia Ridge facility. Image included of an all white Gold Phoenix. Also states that a new line of Denning Phoenix school bus is in the design phase and will be launched in early 2022 (described as a modern and sleek design).
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

The website has been generally changed, with more photos of all models, notably the Element.

Is the Denning low floor actually low floor or low-entry only? There's so much slackness in use of terminology in the industry.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

tonyp wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 12:06 pm The website has been generally changed, with more photos of all models, notably the Element.

Is the Denning low floor actually low floor or low-entry only? There's so much slackness in use of terminology in the industry.
The everyday able bodied passenger don’t really notice or care how much of the aisle way of the bus they are on is low floor. Drivers prefer the less able people ie the sight impaired to stay as close to the front of bus. This time 30 years ago there would of been groups complaining that people witch severe handicaps couldn’t board buses as buses of the time where built with narrow doorways with steps witch even a bigger person would find it hard to access the bus as the doorway was too narrow for then to fit though and the steps on a lot of older buses back then would of narrow tight and steep as a older bus back in 1991 would of been built as early 1966 or maybe before
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:44 pm The everyday able bodied passenger don’t really notice or care how much of the aisle way of the bus they are on is low floor. Drivers prefer the less able people ie the sight impaired to stay as close to the front of bus. This time 30 years ago there would of been groups complaining that people witch severe handicaps couldn’t board buses as buses of the time where built with narrow doorways with steps witch even a bigger person would find it hard to access the bus as the doorway was too narrow for then to fit though and the steps on a lot of older buses back then would of narrow tight and steep as a older bus back in 1991 would of been built as early 1966 or maybe before
I travelled for many years on those old buses (and similar old trams) and, from direct observation, the less mobile and elderly had a tough time of it, some of them in fact unable to use public transport altogether. That doesn't mean we should still operate by the standards of the past. The general trend in the last 30-40 years is that public transport should be accessible to all and good manufacturers have come to the party and given us vehicle designs that are accessible to all, from end to end. Lazier manufacturers, agencies and operators have chosen to do no more than meet the minimum standards set by legislation.

I'd have to ask anybody with a begrudging attitude whether they've actually been unable to climb stairs for one reason or another and forced to stand in a bus or train because they can't get to the seats that are on a different plane, accessible only by steps in the aisle? When the vehicle is crowded, you'd be surprised how few seats there are on the level. If nobody can understand it now, be assured that karma will catch up in old age! That's only part of the issue though. The other is the efficiency of passenger flows, distribution and, consequently, capacity in the vehicle. Aisle stairs have an effect somewhat like the Berlin Wall, undermining the efficiency and capacity of the vehicle. To Custom Denning's great credit, they've made a bold statement about how a bus should be designed. Now the penny needs to drop with agencies and operators.

Would still like to know whether that "Denning Low Floor" model is actually low floor. I haven't seen inside any examples. It's Denning that designed the low-floor Element, so they certainly know their subject, but most Australian bus body builders are constrained by the chassis that the client gives them, invariably in Australia a low-entry chassis.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Linto63 »

Ah here we are, another opportunity to go over the the low floor vs low entrance debate for the umpteenth time. There is a dedicated thread, suggest that further discussion on the subject be held there rather than getting off-topic here.
tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:44 pm The everyday able bodied passenger don’t really notice or care how much of the aisle way of the bus they are on is low floor. Drivers prefer the less able people ie the sight impaired to stay as close to the front of bus. This time 30 years ago there would of been groups complaining that people witch severe handicaps couldn’t board buses as buses of the time where built with narrow doorways with steps witch even a bigger person would find it hard to access the bus as the doorway was too narrow for then to fit though and the steps on a lot of older buses back then would of narrow tight and steep as a older bus back in 1991 would of been built as early 1966 or maybe before
Linto63 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:16 pm Ah here we are, another opportunity to go over the the low floor vs low entrance debate for the umpteenth time. There is a dedicated thread, suggest that further discussion on the subject be held there rather than getting off-topic here.
Consider yourself told Campbelltown busboy! Don't ask the wrong question on the wrong thread or the forum police will come after you. :wink:

I still have an outstanding question about whether the Denning Low Floor is a low floor or a low entry. Perhaps somebody in Quensland knows?
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Linto63 wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:16 pm Ah here we are, another opportunity to go over the the low floor vs low entrance debate for the umpteenth time. There is a dedicated thread, suggest that further discussion on the subject be held there rather than getting off-topic here.
I thought that admin locked that thread a while ago to stop Tony from going on about how far behind Europe the Australian bus industry was
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Fleet Lists »

No That thread is still open even though the last post seems to have been off topic.
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tonyp
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:57 pm I thought that admin locked that thread a while ago to stop Tony from going on about how far behind Europe the Australian bus industry was
Since then, Custom Denning has brought that situation to an end. We can fairly say that we've caught up to Europe in design for functionality (fit for purpose). All that remains is for other manufacturers to catch up and agencies and operators to raise their minimum standards to the Element benchmark.

Delving into the CD website, it does look like their Low Floor chassis is low-entry but as, I think, Australia's only bus chassis designer and builder, they're quite capable of designing anything they want, as evidenced by the Element.

Image

Image

It seems to me, from general appearance, that the Custom Adventurer coach/school bus

Image

and Denning Phoenix coach/school bus

Image

are basically the same vehicle(?).
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Off The Rails »

tonyp wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:27 pm Custom Denning's montages of its range.

Image
Would appear that no one has clocked onto the fact the Endeavour in this pic is a midi...

Also, in other news, Custom has a midi Endeavour. 10.2m long with a Cummins engine and Allison gearbox.

Cheers! :wink:
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Off The Rails wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 9:27 pm
Would appear that no one has clocked onto the fact the Endeavour in this pic is a midi...

Also, in other news, Custom has a midi Endeavour. 10.2m long with a Cummins engine and Allison gearbox.

Cheers! :wink:
It does say in the specs on the website that it's available also at 11.8, 12.5, 14.5 and 18 (artic) metres. The Adventurer is available at 11.5 and 12.5 metres.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

tonyp wrote: Wed Aug 04, 2021 6:27 pm Would still like to know whether that "Denning Low Floor" model is actually low floor. I haven't seen inside any examples. It's Denning that designed the low-floor Element, so they certainly know their subject, but most Australian bus body builders are constrained by the chassis that the client gives them, invariably in Australia a low-entry chassis.
Just to clear things up!

If your talking about this bus they manufacture. (Denning Phoenix LF)
Image

Then I can confirm it is low-entry & not low floor. I have been on Rover Coaches sole example numerous times and as you head to the rear of the bus, there is steps in the gangway. Do remember their example is a 2012 model way before Denning possibly ever considered tinkering with the idea of a fully low floor bus but I really doubt at this stage their Phoenix LF or their MIDI Endeavour will see a full low floor chassis fitted onto it.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 9:00 am Then I can confirm it is low-entry & not low floor. I have been on Rover Coaches sole example numerous times and as you head to the rear of the bus, there is steps in the gangway. Do remember their example is a 2012 model way before Denning possibly ever considered tinkering with the idea of a fully low floor bus but I really doubt at this stage their Phoenix LF or their MIDI Endeavour will see a full low floor chassis fitted onto it.
Thanks for confirming that. I guessed it from the position of the seats in the photo. Our local slackness in terminology almost invites creating one of those joke alternative dictionaries for the Australian bus industry:

Ultra Low Floor = mostly high floor (a la Bustech)
Low Floor = low entry
Flat Floor = low floor
High Floor = high floor (bingo!)

Similar contortions occur in tram discussions. The industry itself is pretty focussed. Low floor means just that, otherwise it's "part low-floor", or 50%, 70% etc low floor. A spin-off among enthusiasts is the distinction between the tram being completely stepless (all seats mounted on the floor) or having some seats on plinths. However, the definitions of floor heights relate to the gangway only, not the spaces occupied by seats.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

A modern proper low floor citybus interior in an Element. Images courtesy Custom Denning.


Image


Image
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by ScaniaGrenda »

Looks very nice and I am finding I'm having deja vu vibes from it as if It is something I've definitely seen similar to it before, not keen on the bucket seats but I'd imagine it'll still be an option the particular operator of said bus can choose. Speaking of seating, there is definitely those of us who have been on these (still not myself) but how comfortable is the rear seat? I only ask because I have ridden numerous buses, sat up on the rear seat and it can either be comfortable or uncomfortable, most uncomfortable was a Bustech XDI who only had a slab of moquette fabric and there was no plush in it (best I can describe is it was the equivalent of sitting on a metal bench seat). Hoping CD has done right with the rear seat.

Also I note that in TonyP's photo, there is no stop button towards the back of the bus unless they've gone for a Bustech type of move and mounted them to the paneling but I can't see it?
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

ScaniaGrenda wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:17 pm Looks very nice and I am finding I'm having deja vu vibes from it as if It is something I've definitely seen similar to it before, not keen on the bucket seats but I'd imagine it'll still be an option the particular operator of said bus can choose. Speaking of seating, there is definitely those of us who have been on these (still not myself) but how comfortable is the rear seat? I only ask because I have ridden numerous buses, sat up on the rear seat and it can either be comfortable or uncomfortable, most uncomfortable was a Bustech XDI who only had a slab of moquette fabric and there was no plush in it (best I can describe is it was the equivalent of sitting on a metal bench seat). Hoping CD has done right with the rear seat.

Also I note that in TonyP's photo, there is no stop button towards the back of the bus unless they've gone for a Bustech type of move and mounted them to the paneling but I can't see it?
This is a Queensland specification so I'm not familiar with those details. They're Styleride seats.

The feeling of deja vu would be if you've been to Europe where this basic stepless design is replicated in the scores of thousands across the continent!
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Mr OC Benz »

The interior of this demo looks great. Much prefer those slimline seats to the bench seats, not least that it gives a bit of extra leg room which I felt was lacking a little towards the rear on one of their other demonstrators with the bench seats. Tight leg room is an issue on many buses though and especially more so on some of the other electric bus types that I have experienced so far, so not a huge issue. Overall a pretty good standard set with the Element.

Just with the practicalities of this particular demonstrator, I note not only the lack of stop buttons but also very little in the way of vertical or horizontal handrails beyond the front wheelchair area. It does make the interior look nice and tidy, and not a big issue if only being used as a demonstrator to operators but maybe more noticeable if it were pressed into public service.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Mr OC Benz wrote: Thu Oct 28, 2021 9:47 pm Just with the practicalities of this particular demonstrator, I note not only the lack of stop buttons but also very little in the way of vertical or horizontal handrails beyond the front wheelchair area. It does make the interior look nice and tidy, and not a big issue if only being used as a demonstrator to operators but maybe more noticeable if it were pressed into public service.
I imagine that it hasn't received its final outfit, which may vary depending on who purchases it.

Exterior (Custom Denning images):

Image

Image
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Campbelltown busboy »

Why doesn't Transport For NSW sit all the operators down and say the government has signed a contract with Custom Bus for the Custom Denning Element to be only electric bus for use in NSW so the only things you need to worry about now are bus specs and how many you want
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by tonyp »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:50 am Why doesn't Transport For NSW sit all the operators down and say the government has signed a contract with Custom Bus for the Custom Denning Element to be only electric bus for use in NSW so the only things you need to worry about now are bus specs and how many you want
Because we operate in an environment of mandatory open and competitive tendering. TfNSW could, however, limit the field (or incentivise manufacturers to lift their game) by setting minimum standards for bus design.
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Re: Custom Denning Discussion / Observations

Post by Lt. Commander Data »

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Wed Nov 17, 2021 8:50 am Why doesn't Transport For NSW sit all the operators down and say the government has signed a contract with Custom Bus for the Custom Denning Element to be only electric bus for use in NSW so the only things you need to worry about now are bus specs and how many you want
I’m sure if that happened, TNSW would find themselves taken to court by Volgren, Bustech, etc for acting in an anti-competitive way.
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