Bus Observations 2023

[Campbelltown busboy]

Loops is what region 15 was made up of mostly loops so the drivers that transferred to Transit Systems from Busabout would know the exact point to change the desto over as quite a few of those ex Busabout region 15 drivers would have been working the area since the Busways days whitch the Busways trainers would actually tell the trainee where exactly on the loop to change the desto to display the to show the bus was on the Campbelltown bound section of the loop

[alleve]

Saw this in the DDA regulations posted above:

"Destination displays which simultaneously show both ends of a route are confusing and should be avoided."

Does this mean that 'loop' routes should have a destination board change midway through the route? In that case, why not go the extra millimetre and turn it into a regular route with two termini?

Transit Systems has both preferences. The 476, for example, includes a desto change at Clareville Ave at Russell Ave (stop 221964). The 479 does the same.

As for why they wouldn't make it a regular route, many loop services are loop services for a reason. Continuing the example of the 476, the balloon loop section acts to pick passengers up in the morning and drop them off in the afternoon. If the route simply terminated at the point of the desto change, morning passengers would be subject to an unnecessary wait on the bus.

Even if we use a loop route that doesn't have a large balloon loop as an example, such as the 358, there is still a reason why it is a loop and not an ordinary bi directional route with termini at either end. There is a lack of space in Randwick for buses to go to terminate, and so in order to avoid congestion the route is a loop to keep buses moving through the area. The 358 is another loop route with a desto change.

Sure, the 303 and 348 are conventional routes that pass through Randwick, but they take up the available space for buses to terminate. There is not another opportunity to have buses terminate where they do. The 375 ends at Randwick but again is a loop route to avoid the bus having to stop for an extended period of time there. Again, it has a desto change.

There are a few loop routes in R9.
The 399 operates from Little Bay to UNSW and changes destos after leaving Kingsford on the inbound. The next bus display at the interchange already shows the next inbound service operating to Little Bay.
The 373 from Coogee to Museum is a loop service. The electronic paper screen at the terminus shows its destination as Coogee.
I’ve noticed a similar outcome for the 120 from Chatswood.
IIRC the 339, 374 and 311 are also loops.

The 311 does not appear to be a loop route based on the maps on TfNSW's website

[pgt]

Is that off the B-line destos?

No - pretty sure it was one of the 27xx Bustech Volvo B7RLE buses on route 144 where I saw it (the "Chatswood" and "Manly" examples were from this).

The B-Line ones, while mixed case, don't have "via" destinations last time I checked - these still had them on the second row (so "Via Military Road" etc).

[Lt. Commander Data]

Saw this in the DDA regulations posted above:

"Destination displays which simultaneously show both ends of a route are confusing and should be avoided."

Does this mean that 'loop' routes should have a destination board change midway through the route? In that case, why not go the extra millimetre and turn it into a regular route with two termini?

I know different operators have different desto preferences for loop routes - Transdev John Holland vehicles seem to favour a desto change (or at least from what I've seen on the 381), while Busways North West and Transit Systems NSW vehicles have a single desto which displays both ends of the route, e.g. last time I saw an 815 displaying "MT PRITCHARD / CABRAMATTA LOOP" before cycling through the waypoints.

I also don't quite understand how showing both ends of a route simultaneously would be confusing - don't destination displays display the final destination and the waypoints anyway? It's not like the destination board changes after the bus passes one of the suburbs mentioned in the display.

I’m not sure that regulation considers loop services - the point would presumably refer to a regular point to point service. If route 1 is Sydney to Melbourne, the destination should say “Sydney” or “Melbourne” (depending on travel direction); not “Sydney to Melbourne”.

Changing a loop service’s sign at a mid point is probably the best way to operate IMO as it keeps the sign relevant.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

I don't see how that would confuse passengers - I've seen buses in Malaysia which display the start and end points of a route and they don't seem too complicated to navigate. With that example it would look like "1 Sydney - Melbourne via Albury".

A minor quibble with those Malaysian buses though - the destination board scrolls such that not only is it difficult to read from a distance, or when the bus is moving at speed, but it only shows one destination at a time, which could be somewhat confusing. The font is also quite difficult to read and squished. But other than that it seems no more complicated than the existing system.

Speaking of which, I remember my first time getting a 415 from Strathfield Station, and accidentally hopping onboard the Campsie service instead of the Chiswick one... it seems a bit ridiculous that the services in both directions depart from the same stand, and it doesn't help that both termini start with the same letter. Perhaps Strathfield should be laid out more like Macquarie Centre, which for the 288, 291 and 292, has inbound services from Stand D and outbound runs at Stand C.

[stajourneyman]

So a visitor to an unfamiliar area arrives at the bus stop waiting for the bus.

If that bus route is a loop service, and shows both destinations, how is the passenger expected to know which way it is going?

Chances are if the passenger is a youth, elderly, or has an intellectual disability, they are going to see their destination on the desto and will probably jump onboard, causing needless inconvenience and confusion.

Where separate destos are in use on a loop service, the logical time to change the desto is at the point where the ‘out’ and ‘in’ trips diverge from each other.

[hugh45]

Buses on route 476 and 477 share the same spot at Rockdale Plaza for buses going in both directions. The buses correctly show their destinations as either Rockdale, Dolls Point or Miranda. The timetable at this stop however does not indicate which buses go to Dolls Point but show all route 476 buses going to Rockdale including the buses going to Dolls Point first.

[Linto63]

The ludicrous situations where out and back routes are treated as a loop service and thus display their outbound destination at inbound stops remains on bus stop destination displays and apps. Examples are at the city bound stop at Neutral Bay Junction where 100 services are shown as going to Taronga Zoo, not the QVB and at Coogee Beach where 373 services are shown as going to Coogee, not Museum. Maybe it was the same dope who decided that Waratah train displays should display Central and not their ultimate destinations.

[boronia]

The apps I use do manage to show the mid-point destination in the stop summary, but the whole loop when the trip is expanded.

[hornetfig]

There are a few loop routes in R9.
The 399 operates from Little Bay to UNSW and changes destos after leaving Kingsford on the inbound. The next bus display at the interchange already shows the next inbound service operating to Little Bay.
The 373 from Coogee to Museum is a loop service. The electronic paper screen at the terminus shows its destination as Coogee.
I’ve noticed a similar outcome for the 120 from Chatswood.
IIRC the 339, 374 and 311 are also loops.

Funny how loop services much everything up.

eg A good chunk of R9 bus stop signs have been replaced by Hop-style in the past year. Those new signs include the major waypoints for routes departing that stop (no route numbers). If there's a loop service that stops there (so, 339 - Clovelly-Clovelly via Central, 373 Coogee-Coogee via Museum), both inbound and outbound stops were manufactured with "City" as a destination.

Whoops. White tape hastily placed over the outbound stops now.

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

I've seen the white tape over some of the 'hop' style signs for the 651 at Castle Hill - was there a time when the 651 wasn't between Rouse Hill and Epping?

Interestingly enough, there are still many signs on the former M92 route which still display M92 instead of 920 or 960 - the plastic signs notifying commuters that the M92 has been split into two new routes aren't present at all stops either.

Earlier this year, I hopped on a 373 from the SCG thinking it still ran to Circular Quay, and took an entire loop before I realised that the route had been changed into a loop service. What really confused me was that the destination board said 'City' but the only part of the City that the bus serviced were two stops at Museum Station.

I think it would help a lot if there was a means of notifying passengers when the vehicle is at the other end of the loop, i.e. for the 373, either a next stop announcement system could be set up (unlikely) or the drivers could be told to yell "This is the City, we will now loop back to Coogee". However, Sydney being Sydney, I don't think either options are going to become a reality. Not everyone owns a mobile phone, and mine happened to be out of data on that day.

[pgt]

I've seen the white tape over some of the 'hop' style signs for the 651 at Castle Hill - was there a time when the 651 wasn't between Rouse Hill and Epping?

Going back to before the North West Metro opened, the 651 (and 621) used to extend through to the City via Macquarie Park, Waterloo Road and Epping Road in off-peak and weekends from memory at least.
That said I think the 651 was a Castle Hill - Cherrybrook - Beecroft [Road] - M2 to Macquarie Park service, then off-peak services continued to the city.

[Glen]

I think the 476 has been a loop since trolleybus days.

[robert]

I think the 476 has been a loop since trolleybus days.

Correct.

[tonyp]

I think the 476 has been a loop since trolleybus days.

476 almost entirely replicates the Kogarah trolleybus line and largely the steam tram line before that. There has been a loop at the southern end since 1887.

Ian MacGowan notes in his history of the Sydney Trolley Buses, when trolleybuses were replaced by diesel buses in 1959:

"The diesels [Worldmasters and Titans] quickly became extremely unpopular for their violent motion, noise, smell, stuffiness and overcrowding ..... Diesels were supposed to be faster but they were not, even when four bells were rung by perplexed conductors to indicate not to pick up any more passengers up due to being packed .... Noise was an incredible factor. When the August Westerlies blew, a diesel bus, ascending Fitzgerald Hill in Rocky Point Road, could be heard from the eastern side of the lake in Scarborough Park. Previously, a trolley bus couldn't be heard from the opposite footpath."

When the transition was in process, a driver recalled that "a diesel bus arrived, accompanied by several DGT officials. [The driver] "was instructed to lay up for a whole trip while the conductor went on the diesel for a trial run out to Dolls Point. Quite a few passengers were on board and only 40% transferred to the diesel, the others chose to wait for the next trolley bus."

"Failure rate in traffic was lower than any other service provided by diesel bus ... They were still a well-liked popular mode of travel. Complaints received by Head Office over a period of a year were less than from any other Depots' services received each week."

It seems to me that 476 should now be operated entirely by electric buses by way of reparation for the profound wrongdoing inflicted on the locals in 1959!

[Kiyrri]

Going back to before the North West Metro opened, the 651 (and 621) used to extend through to the City via Macquarie Park, Waterloo Road and Epping Road in off-peak and weekends from memory at least.
That said I think the 651 was a Castle Hill - Cherrybrook - Beecroft [Road] - M2 to Macquarie Park service, then off-peak services continued to the city.

That's right; during peak the 651 and 621 only went to Macquarie park, off-peak continuing to the city. Following the metro's opening the 621 was axed and 651 shortened.

[Swift]

Taken in Umina yesterday I see Mercedes Benz is displayed on the front of this bus. First time I've noticed a Busways Endeavour with a Mercedes badge of some sort.

IMG_20231212_135412_copy_800x452.jpg (113.97 KiB) Viewed 1446 times

Also noticed an inconsiderate Busways driver parked on a bus stop today making it hard for our bus to pull in. He had to reverse out and the offending bus driver saw fit to park 2m back from the bus stop signpost.

[Stu]

I think the 476 has been a loop since trolleybus days.

During the early 2000’s and late 2007, the route 476 operated as separate inbound and outbound trips, this was during an era that continued to use section points to calculate fares with the AFC machine and the two green ticket readers.

Outbound from Rockdale to Dolls Point.
Section 10 Rockdale Station.
Section 11 Kogarah Station.
Section 12 Rocky Point Rd & Jubilee Ave.
Section 13 Rocky Point Rd before Russell Ave, Sans Souci shops.
End trip on the AFC.
Terminate at Clareville Ave & Russell Ave, Sandringham.

Inbound from Dolls Point to Rockdale.
Start trip on the AFC.
Commence from Clareville Ave & Russell Ave, Sandringham.
Section 14 Russell Ave & Rocky Point Rd, Sans Souci shops.
Section 13 Rocky Point Rd after Russell Ave, Sans Souci shops.
Section 12 Rocky Point Rd & Jubilee Ave.
Section 11 Kogarah Station.
Section 10 Rockdale Station.

If a passenger boarded the bus at section 14, they would be unfairly charged one section for travelling just one bus stop as section 13 was the next bus stop, drivers would normally advance the section point forward to keep customers happy. The solution to this anomaly was to concert the service into a continuous loop and remove section 14 on Russell Ave before Rocky Point Rd.

The new section point structure was:
Section 10 Rockdale Station.
Section 11 Kogarah Station.
Section 12 Rocky Point Rd & Jubilee Ave.
Section 13 Rocky Point Rd before Russell Ave, Sans Souci shops.
Section 14 Rocky Point Rd after Russell Ave, Sans Souci shops.
Section 15 Rocky Point Rd & Jubilee Ave.
Section 16 Kogarah Station.
Section 17 Rockdale Station.


Another route that had a section point removed was route 412. This occurred on 21/3/2010 after a Region 6 network review. The route 412 used to operate via Northcote St, Canterbury Rd, Orissa St & Fletcher St, Campsie (this portion of route was covered by new route 473 and almost did not happen). The service was rerouted to operate directly via Bexley Rd, this removed section point 10 on Canterbury Rd & Scahill St, Campsie. The total amount of section points was reduced from 11 to 10.

[Glen]

Was it not still a loop though, even if the new fare system didn't cope very well?

[Noel]

Title Case is easier to read for the vision impaired - see the UK DDA regs https://www.scribd.com/document/195572 ... 0a%20means

While I am not vision impaired, I dispute this. Challenge anyone to try and read the title case Mobitec destination signs KDNB have against those from Busways and you will clearly see which one is more legible from any distance.

Destination signs only work if they're spaced accordingly and are not cluttered.

The U-Go ones are shocking. The latest update with superflous vias's to the TJHB are also useless and confusing to passengers yet again. (I am looking at 309 which has Depot added to the outbound despite the fact no one cares it goes to Port Botany depot as it services Port Botany as an area. Also the route 4 destination to Olympic Park has been bastardised - if only people look at what they're actually doing.)

[MiCCROwavE_OVEN]

There used to be an issue with CDCNSW Region 4 (previously Hillsbus) Volgren Optimus vehicles where, when displaying the 612X to Castle Hill desto, the 'via' text would be superimposed onto the destination "Castle Hill", making it practically impossible to read. This issue wasn't fixed for three years - until the North West Metro opened and the destination boards were reprogrammed.

[Swift]

Why the refusal to fix desto problems? Probably because the useless pax dumdums never read the signs anyway.

[Stu]

Was it not still a loop though, even if the new fare system didn't cope very well?

There was a scheduled break between the respective trips.

[Glen]

Why the refusal to fix desto problems? Probably because the useless pax dumdums never read the signs anyway.

Seriously?

Try to say something positive.

[Swift]

Why the refusal to fix desto problems? Probably because the useless pax dumdums never read the signs anyway.

Seriously?

Try to say something positive.

Impossible when it comes to bus passengers. I have no remorse in saying that.