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NSW Railway Observations 2020

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby Transtopic » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:07 pm

ed24 wrote:Some of the orange station signage is fading quite badly already - I wonder how long it was expected to last
The problem with the white on orange signage is that there isn't enough contrast and it can be difficult to read, especially at night. God only knows where they dragged their graphic design advice from.

I always preferred the previous white on dark blue signage, including the platform indicators.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby Aurora » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:31 pm

boronia wrote:
Aurora wrote:They are changed locally at Central to indicate to passengers that a service is still provided all the way, just a matter of changing mid way for a bus. One of the few locations that have the ability to do so.

How many people would actually notice that extra line inserted in the display? It is hardly noticeable even if you are deliberately looking for it. Most would simply be checking that their destination station is showing.

These days the line has a grey background and the text is slightly smaller. Originally, the colour and text was exactly the same.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby ed24 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:54 pm

It seems a little pointless having Opal gates (as opposed to readers) at the Metro stations when, due to there being no staff, they need to leave one gate permanently open just in case there is a special event with integrated ticketing or another access requirement.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby swtt » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:06 pm

ed24 wrote:It seems a little pointless having Opal gates (as opposed to readers) at the Metro stations when, due to there being no staff, they need to leave one gate permanently open just in case there is a special event with integrated ticketing or another access requirement.
Whilst they've left one gate open, most passengers will still travel to another station on the rail network that is gated.



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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby boronia » Sun Feb 16, 2020 7:53 am

ed24 wrote:It seems a little pointless having Opal gates (as opposed to readers) at the Metro stations when, due to there being no staff, they need to leave one gate permanently open just in case there is a special event with integrated ticketing or another access requirement.

This happens at a lot of ST stations where there are staff.

If it was only for integrated ticketing, it could be done only on days when this is valid.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby BroadGauge » Sun Feb 16, 2020 9:10 am

boronia wrote:This happens at a lot of ST stations where there are staff.

At some stations, the staff are commonly on duty next to the barriers whilst keeping the gates wide open anyway!
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby BroadGauge » Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:27 pm

Due to apparent rollingstock shortages, there have been Tangaras and 4-car K sets replacing some of the usual Millenniums on the T5 Cumberland line this weekend.

There was also a K set running on the Western line yesterday morning on North Sydney to Riverstone services.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby swtt » Sun Feb 16, 2020 6:48 pm

Some B sets have also been running T1/T9 services.

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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby Transtopic » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:22 pm

BroadGauge wrote:
boronia wrote:This happens at a lot of ST stations where there are staff.

At some stations, the staff are commonly on duty next to the barriers whilst keeping the gates wide open anyway!
Many ST stations, even busy ones, have no barriers at all, so why bother with them? If they don't tap on when boarding, then I expect that they would be denied exit at the busier CBD stations with barriers, or have I got that wrong?
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby matthewg » Mon Feb 17, 2020 6:49 am

Transtopic wrote: If they don't tap on when boarding, then I expect that they would be denied exit at the busier CBD stations with barriers, or have I got that wrong?


The system will NEVER trap you in a station. You can always 'tap off' and open the barrier. This is part of the reasom card balances can go negative - the system will always let you out (except the Airport stations with their premium fare, I think they have been changed after the provision of top-up machines INSIDE the gateline.)

But if you haven't tapped on, exiting will cause a 'default fare' (maximum Sydney Trains fare) to be charged to the card.

Major destination stations are all gated, so the thinking is, habitual no tappers will mostly get slapped with default fares when they exit at their destination and that 'pricing signal' will ensure complance.
Of course some one actually intending to fare evade will just jump the barrier or try to slip-stream a valid tapper through the gate, so the default fare trap just catches the absent minded.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby neilrex » Tue Feb 18, 2020 7:08 pm

matthewg wrote:
Transtopic wrote: If they don't tap on when boarding, then I expect that they would be denied exit at the busier CBD stations with barriers, or have I got that wrong?


The system will NEVER trap you in a station. .


The Melbourne system will quite happily trap you in a station, even if you have done nothing "wrong".

A trip from Broadmeadows to Frankston takes anywhere from 100 to 140 minutes, depending on how long you wait for the first train and the vagaries of transferimg in their stupid Loop.

When you try to exit at Frankston station at the gates, if it has taken longer than 120, it says your card is invalid, says to call them on some 1300 number displayed for 0.7 seconds, and won't open ! You have to look for someone to let you out. Goodness knows what fare the system charges you.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby Frodo » Tue Feb 18, 2020 11:50 pm

Storms causing havoc on the system once again tonight

On the T1, trains stuck northbound at Gordon for over an hour due to fallen tree at Pymble. On the T9, a train is stuck between Thornleigh and Normanhurst for over 2 hours due to a fallen tree.
Not sure what's happened to the late night CCN services as they can't get through northbound on either line and there's damage between Cowan and Gosford also.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby BanksfielderIdiot823 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 1:09 am

neilrex wrote:
matthewg wrote:The system will NEVER trap you in a station. .


The Melbourne system will quite happily trap you in a station, even if you have done nothing "wrong".

A trip from Broadmeadows to Frankston takes anywhere from 100 to 140 minutes, depending on how long you wait for the first train and the vagaries of transferimg in their stupid Loop.

When you try to exit at Frankston station at the gates, if it has taken longer than 120, it says your card is invalid, says to call them on some 1300 number displayed for 0.7 seconds, and won't open ! You have to look for someone to let you out. Goodness knows what fare the system charges you.


Makes it sound like a much better idea to kill the 4 hours on the 901 from Broady to Frankston.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby neilrex » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:25 am

"Transport for NSW said commuters on the North Shore line should plan their trips, with delays expected on several routes affected by a fallen tree at Pymble."

Another rather bizarre, unhelpful and unfathomable statement from Transport for NSW.

There are not buses. What is "route" supposed to mean ? There are "lines" and "services". Some services use more than one line, and some lines carry more than one service. It's not like a fallen tree blocking the 197 and the 575. Assuming that they are actually refering to trains, there is only one "route" at Pymble.

Or if "several routes" is supposed to mean the T1 Western and T9 Northern line are affected, then perhaps the sentence should not have started with "commuters on the North Shore line". And not all train passengers are "commuters".

"delays" means what ? A bit late and out of timetable order ? Or NO trains until the problem is fixed ? A fallen tree either blocks the line, or it doesn't.

If I was a metro user, how might this affect me ? ( if I was going downtown )

A person seeing this news somewhere and consulting the official system map, would conclude that T1 services are affected and not T9. And they would be 100% wrong in that assessment.

When did this happen ? 11 PM Tuesday ( storm at Pymble ). Early Wednesday ? 10 AM Wednesday ? Makes quite a difference to someone expecting to catch a train from Parramatta to Penrith.

"delays" do not matter to train users nearly as much as train operators. What matters is if the trains are actually running. If I turn up to catch the 10 AM train and it is actually the 930 train running 30 minutes late, I don't care ! As long as I can actually get on it.

There's a big difference between "get to work 30 minutes late", or "forget it, go back to bed". There is also a difference between "get to airport 2 hrs instead of 2.5 hrs before flight" and "call a $200 taxi, NOW".

How useful is "planning your trip" actually going to be, and can you rely on the information anyway? Is it still going to tell me "no trains" an hour after the trains have actually started running again ? ( this actually happened, recently ).

Just to show, it can be done, here's an example of an informative announcement.

"Due to a fallen tree near Pymble earlier this morning, there are currently NO trains operating between Hornsby and Gordon on the North Shore line [in both/one direction]. Trains are running between Gordon, Lindfield and Central, with some delays and reduced services. Customers should expect delays on the T1 North Shore, T1 Western lines and T9 Northern line."

This tells the passenger at Wahroonga - you're screwed. It tells the passenger at Artarmon - business as usual, expect train might be late and a bit more crowded. It tells the metro passenger - you'll still be able to get to the city. It tells the passengers every where - listen to announcements and check platform screens carefully. It also tells passengers in the other direction - you can get at least as far as Gordon.

"planning your trip" is unlikely to help hardly anyone. The only user likely to benefit, is the Turramurra user who will find they can take the 575 to the Pacific Highway opposite Bloomsbury Avenue stop, walk about 700 metres, and then take the 197 two stops to Gordon Station. The Wahroonga user on the other hand has no realistic "trip planning" option.

Useful communication is not rocket surgery.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby neilrex » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:30 am

BanksfielderIdiot823 wrote:
neilrex wrote:
The Melbourne system will quite happily trap you in a station, even if you have done nothing "wrong".

A trip from Broadmeadows to Frankston takes anywhere from 100 to 140 minutes, depending on how long you wait for the first train and the vagaries of transferimg in their stupid Loop.

When you try to exit at Frankston station at the gates, if it has taken longer than 120, it says your card is invalid, says to call them on some 1300 number displayed for 0.7 seconds, and won't open ! You have to look for someone to let you out. Goodness knows what fare the system charges you.


Makes it sound like a much better idea to kill the 4 hours on the 901 from Broady to Frankston.


It objects to that too, but doesn't physically obstruct you from leaving the bus. I think I also got an additional default fare later, as it treated the tap-off from the bus at Frankston as the tap-on for a non-existent journey. It's a significant design flaw in their entire system, it thinks a single trip cannot take more than two hours.

Edit: I don't want using my Opal or Myki cards to exit the back door of any bus, to be construed by the system as a tap-on, EVER ! That's one of the several reasons I don't recommend all door boarding.
Last edited by neilrex on Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby boronia » Wed Feb 19, 2020 11:34 am

The people who make these posts seem to have a folder of template messages they are required to choose from, then cut and paste what they consider is the most suitable. The fact that it might be meaningless, misleading, or even incorrect, is beyond their capabilities.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby neilrex » Wed Feb 19, 2020 12:29 pm

boronia wrote:The people who make these posts seem to have a folder of template messages they are required to choose from, then cut and paste what they consider is the most suitable. The fact that it might be meaningless, misleading, or even incorrect, is beyond their capabilities.


well fair enough. but then, what are the capabilities of the people who allegedly can make the trip planner work usefully during service disruptions ?

There is a presumbly an IT contractor who puts the regular timetable changes into the system, which are known before they occur and this work can be done during normal business hours.

Many disruptions occur at night or the weekend. We are still told, "use the trip planner, rely on the trip planner, the trip planner knows what is going on". If the trip planner is really so smart, maybe it should be able to create announcements which are credible and actually informative for potential customers.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby Merc1107 » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:54 pm

neilrex wrote:Edit: I don't want using my Opal or Myki cards to exit the back door of any bus, to be construed by the system as a tap-on, EVER ! That's one of the several reasons I don't recommend all door boarding.
That just boils down to crappy backend logic on behalf of the operator that specified the smart-card system, not the fault of all-door boarding.

neilrex wrote: We are still told, "use the trip planner, rely on the trip planner, the trip planner knows what is going on". If the trip planner is really so smart, maybe it should be able to create announcements which are credible and actually informative for potential customers.
Trip planners will never replace local knowledge, unfortunately. There are examples here in W.A. where our 'official' one will suggest changing buses on a specific corridor into the city where one route has less time to get into town - even though you'd never save any time changing services, nor even manage to get that other bus anyway, given the bus you were on was probably 10-15 minutes late already :roll:
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby boronia » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:54 am

Trip planners are only as good as the timetables and other information programmed into them.

Real time apps also rely on the same data. At best they can tell that a service is late or cancelled.

Neither can identify ad-hoc replacement services.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby Engineering » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:01 pm

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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:08 pm

Engineering wrote:XPT just derailed

https://twitter.com/andrew_lund/status/ ... 04256?s=20
They are talking about it on the radio the reports say that this derailment happened some place north of Melbourne
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby pgt » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:19 pm

Campbelltown busboy wrote:They are talking about it on the radio the reports say that this derailment happened some place north of Melbourne
ABC quotes that it was at Wallan.
That line isn't having much luck, what with the freight train derailment further down the line near Wangaratta (the one the Albury to Melbourne VLine train hit a wagon of).
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby J_Busworth » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:33 pm

https://www.smh.com.au/national/victori ... 542vz.html
c97a3179f051349c30c4ec7faa6b6f560d219501.jpeg


Looks like the front Loco has completely derailed and landed on its side and that those carriages will have quite a bit of damage.


A train believed to carrying about 200 passengers, has come off the tracks near the town of Wallan about 45 kilometres north of Melbourne.

The Sydney to Melbourne XPT train derailed about 7.50pm.Photographs show several carriages removed from the tracks, with the front carriage rolled over onto its side.

A passenger on board said about 200 travellers were on the train.
It is unclear how the train derailed.

The train was gaining speed after being stopped due to a signalling issue.

The train was going about three-quarters speed, according to passenger Rob Jennings.

Mr Jennings said passengers were tossed around the carriage during the approximately minute-long period from when the train began to derail to when it came to a halt.

“It just veered off, and all the carriages smashed into one another,” he said.

“People were tossing around … there was some screaming - everyone was just grasping on, some in the brace position, preparing for the possibility of something worse.”

Mr Jennings said he believed one person had been badly injured, but most people had bumps and bruises.

Mr Jennings said one woman had a panic attack following the accident.

One man on scene said train staff and more able-bodied passengers were helping those with minor injuries off the damaged carriages while others ran to try and free the driver.

“The train workers and conductors were pretty frantic trying to get into the locomotive. Everyone was trying to smash the window but it’s designed not to break,” he said.

“The walking wounded have been able to walk up to the BP which is about 200 metres away and they’re being triaged there in the carpark."

“I reckon I saw about 100 people there."

Emergency services are at the scene and air ambulances are heading to the site.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby J_Busworth » Thu Feb 20, 2020 8:35 pm

The Age now reporting two deaths, including the driver and a passenger, multiple serious injuires

https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... zpgWQgQLfY

Two people have died after the Sydney to Melbourne XPT train believed to carrying about 150 passengers came off the tracks near the town of Wallan about 45 kilometres north of Melbourne.

One of the dead is believed to be the driver, another passenger is being flown to Melbourne and Ambulance Victoria said in a statement that a large number of people were being assessed but were not believed to be seriously injured.

The train derailed about 7.50pm on Thursday evening. Photographs show several carriages removed from the tracks, with the front carriage rolled over onto its side.
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Re: NSW Railway Observations 2020

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Thu Feb 20, 2020 9:22 pm

The presenter on 2GB said something about finding reports from V Line that said something about there being track faults in the area where this derailment happened
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