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PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Perth / Western Australia Transport Discussion

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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Transperthpaperbus » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:58 am

Pinza wrote:Few interesting buses at the city busports this morning.
1718 on a 362 was probably the most noteworthy.
NHs also out and about include. 1531 on 28, 1532 on 25, 1340 on 950.
1860,1547,1792,1777,1793, 1814 and 1819.

Can someone (briefly) explain to me what is involved to convert a CNG bus to normal bus configuration (if at all possible).
Is it just a conversion or a re-engine or is it possible to replace the CNG tank?
From earlier posts it would seem that transperth will have a heap of CNG buses for sale within the next 10 years and it seems a bit of a waste scrapping just because the CNG tank has expired.


1860 is an OC not a NH
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Pinza » Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:09 pm

So it is and my apologies. Two lists and lack of glasses when writing.
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Bus-1809 » Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:19 pm

May have already been mentioned on the previous page, but just incase... "Sofia" (1649) is back from refurb
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Merc1107 » Thu Jun 28, 2018 1:16 am

Pinza wrote:Can someone (briefly) explain to me what is involved to convert a CNG bus to normal bus configuration (if at all possible).
Is it just a conversion or a re-engine or is it possible to replace the CNG tank?
From earlier posts it would seem that transperth will have a heap of CNG buses for sale within the next 10 years and it seems a bit of a waste scrapping just because the CNG tank has expired.

Probably a topic that deserves its own thread.

CNG tanks can be replaced. Given they store gas at a high pressure (over 200 bars, but this varies depending on where you are in the world), their construction must be able to withstand pressurisation and depressurisation for the expected life of the tank, thus they are quite expensive. Once expired (CNG tanks have an expiry date on them and cannot be used past that date), the replacement cost may not make much sense considering the age of the vehicle.
I presume the tanks in the high-floor CNG buses were replaced at some point (tanks can last up to 15-25yrs or more, depending on their construction and local regulations), particularly given the political climate of the mid-2000s where gas buses were 'in vogue.'

Earlier vehicles such as the CNG-powered O305s and O405s can theoretically be re-powered with LPG given the simplistic fuelling system they utilised as original equipment. The O405s (high floor or naturally-aspirated NH) were converted to run the Westport Single-Point fuel injection later on in life. Converting to LPG would necessitate doing away with this marvellous upgrade.
I've heard two ex. BT Scania L94UBs have been successfully converted to LPG. Other ex. BT Scanias were re-powered with Cummins diesel and on-sold.

There are several issues with installing a diesel engine in a CNG vehicle with life-expired tanks:
- You need to do away with the roof-top CNG pod; on Volgren-bodied buses it tends to accumulate water in the wetter months
- Sourcing and configuring a diesel fuel tank
- Finding an engine that suits the transmission and other driveline components
- You're dealing with a vehicle that is already older; there will be wear and tear in the chassis, bodywork, driveline components and electrical system. If you consider the modern trend in fleet replacement is 16-20yrs, other major components in the bus may already be life-expired.
- If diesel vehicles of the same make and model are available, cost of diesel or LPG conversion of a gas bus might exceed the purchase price.

With an LPG conversion, the issues are largely the same, except:
- LPG could have a negative effect on engine life
- Cost of removing the CNG gear and replacing with appropriate LPG gear

Pinza wrote:... 1814 and 1819.

Ahh lovely, two of my favourites 8)
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby LB608 » Fri Jun 29, 2018 5:11 pm

Merc1107 wrote:
Pinza wrote:Can someone (briefly) explain to me what is involved to convert a CNG bus to normal bus configuration (if at all possible).
Is it just a conversion or a re-engine or is it possible to replace the CNG tank?
From earlier posts it would seem that transperth will have a heap of CNG buses for sale within the next 10 years and it seems a bit of a waste scrapping just because the CNG tank has expired.

Probably a topic that deserves its own thread.

CNG tanks can be replaced. Given they store gas at a high pressure (over 200 bars, but this varies depending on where you are in the world), their construction must be able to withstand pressurisation and depressurisation for the expected life of the tank, thus they are quite expensive. Once expired (CNG tanks have an expiry date on them and cannot be used past that date), the replacement cost may not make much sense considering the age of the vehicle.
I presume the tanks in the high-floor CNG buses were replaced at some point (tanks can last up to 15-25yrs or more, depending on their construction and local regulations), particularly given the political climate of the mid-2000s where gas buses were 'in vogue.'

Earlier vehicles such as the CNG-powered O305s and O405s can theoretically be re-powered with LPG given the simplistic fuelling system they utilised as original equipment. The O405s (high floor or naturally-aspirated NH) were converted to run the Westport Single-Point fuel injection later on in life. Converting to LPG would necessitate doing away with this marvellous upgrade.
I've heard two ex. BT Scania L94UBs have been successfully converted to LPG. Other ex. BT Scanias were re-powered with Cummins diesel and on-sold.

There are several issues with installing a diesel engine in a CNG vehicle with life-expired tanks:
- You need to do away with the roof-top CNG pod; on Volgren-bodied buses it tends to accumulate water in the wetter months
- Sourcing and configuring a diesel fuel tank
- Finding an engine that suits the transmission and other driveline components
- You're dealing with a vehicle that is already older; there will be wear and tear in the chassis, bodywork, driveline components and electrical system. If you consider the modern trend in fleet replacement is 16-20yrs, other major components in the bus may already be life-expired.
- If diesel vehicles of the same make and model are available, cost of diesel or LPG conversion of a gas bus might exceed the purchase price.

With an LPG conversion, the issues are largely the same, except:
- LPG could have a negative effect on engine life
- Cost of removing the CNG gear and replacing with appropriate LPG gear

Pinza wrote:... 1814 and 1819.

Ahh lovely, two of my favourites 8)

look at Bus Sales online .com.au they done some ex Brisbane Scania's
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby PoweredByCNG » Sat Jun 30, 2018 12:18 am

LB608 wrote:look at Bus Sales online .com.au they done some ex Brisbane Scania's


Not as easy with Mercedes-Benz buses as they use bespoke engine management systems engineered for CNG only. The Brisbane Scanias use a CNG system that is compatible with off-the-shelf LPG "direct replacement" components from the same OEM.
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Squiddy » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:59 pm

2697, 2698 in service at Joondalup

Also the final three B8 artics 3100-3102 are all delivered and in service with Swan
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby the c man » Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:36 pm

Squiddy wrote:2697, 2698 in service at Joondalup

Also the final three B8 artics 3100-3102 are all delivered and in service with Swan

Shenton park got 3100-3102
Joondalup got 2900
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Squiddy » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:35 am

the c man wrote:
Squiddy wrote:2697, 2698 in service at Joondalup

Also the final three B8 artics 3100-3102 are all delivered and in service with Swan

Shenton park got 3100-3102
Joondalup got 2900


This is true but I don't think 2900 is in service yet =P Probably sitting in the depot til next week I imagine
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby the c man » Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:10 pm

Asets 13/31 took new bset 119 to nowergup depot for final fit out just before 9pm last night
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby sylar » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:31 pm

the c man wrote:Shenton park got 3100-3102
Joondalup got 2900


Good to see Shenton Park finally got some artics, hopefully we'll see them regularly on the 950
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Bus-1809 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:54 pm

I understand that the 3x B8's at Shenton Park are primarily for 950's. This is also why Bayswater have got 3068, 3071 & 3096-3098.
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby ozi_mister_d » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:14 pm

HI All

Managed to spot an unplated 2903 at Truck Centre Welshpool this afternoon (Wed 11 Jul). :D
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby TP1462 » Thu Jul 12, 2018 11:10 pm

1651-52 back from refurb I haven’t seen 1653 yet


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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Pinza » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:52 pm

1800 seen in Adelaide Terrace yesterday. 1153 and 1154 disappeared from the back of Rockingham overnight.
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Off The Rails » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:12 am

So, 3000 decided to roll out of Palmyra Depot again in service, seen on Wednesday at Bull Creek Stn after a 502F.

IMG_4562R.jpg


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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Squiddy » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:07 pm

Pinza wrote:1800 seen in Adelaide Terrace yesterday. 1153 and 1154 disappeared from the back of Rockingham overnight.


They've been coming and going a few times over the last few weeks, but I've been told that 1153 and 1154 went to Manheims yesterday =|
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Bus-1809 » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:28 pm

Following on from Sir. Off the Rails, 3000 made it out, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday AND... Saturday!!! However it had to be changed off today due to a faulty ETIM & was replaced in Service by 0113 (CAT-7).
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Bus Suggestions » Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:41 pm

Is this 3000 at its most active, or have their been other times?
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby the c man » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:23 am

2900 delivered to wangara and in service
2147 is at wangara
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Squiddy » Sun Jul 15, 2018 12:21 pm

Bus Suggestions wrote:Is this 3000 at its most active, or have their been other times?



Five days IN A ROW? (Including Sunday) Gotta be a new record!
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Merc1107 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:20 am

Bus Suggestions wrote:Is this 3000 at its most active, or have their been other times?

It spent a great deal of time 2015/2016 off the road, and been on and off since. A few years ago in its "hey day" I understand it was out and about quite a bit.
It mightn't have the average annual mileage of a new Volvo artic, but then, the usage of the fleet (particularly artics) has changed in more recent times as the proportion of accessible vehicles increased. Nowadays, sending Volvo artics out doesn't mean having to shuffle high floors around in the yard, whereas they might've been buried among a number of Renaults (or even Mercedes, M.A.N. etc) in days gone by.

3000 also went out for some of Sunday AM.
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Bus-1809 » Mon Jul 16, 2018 11:32 am

Can confirm that as of this morning, all 3 Transperth Bus Contractors are now operating on the new Digital Radio Network. This means that the old "Gunzels equipped with radio scanners" can no longer listen to Bus - Base or Bus - Bus radio communications, as some used to do.
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Pinza » Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:52 pm

1808 still at Mandurah but lots of bits disappearing so it’s usefulness as a ‘Xmas tree’ May now be limited - which may explain why 1743 and 1744 have arrived, these are parked up still plated so unsure if for service or parts. Will see if they appear in service next week as the schools are back.
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Re: PTA / Transperth & Private Observations - 2018

Postby Bus Suggestions » Tue Jul 17, 2018 8:42 pm

B-Set 117 in service, seen at Glendalough this afternoon
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