Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Fleet Lists »

As we do not know what they are for, they may not be required before 10am.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by thunderbird »

hornetfig wrote:Central to Moore Park shuttles running from next Monday, 25 May to service the Moore Park carpark. They'll run 10am - 7pm, for some reason.
I guess the logic is, prior to 10am there is sufficient parking in the CBD, and post that the overflow car park is required.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

mubd wrote:Guessing the current AM peak timetable is at the point of saturation, so they can only bring in extra trams from 10am onwards.
You've hit the nail on the head, except that it's not at the point of saturation, it's at the limits of competence. Prior to 1000 the headways on this section are 4 minutes, their closest all day. Although the system has a design capacity to run 2 minute headways in this section, given the experience thus far of the wildly unpredictable nature of the daily operation, they would have a fully justifed fear that it will all rapidly go pear-shaped should they try to achieve what Swiss, Czechs, Germans, even Melbournians regularly, achieve as a matter of routine on a daily basis - an operation that runs like a Swiss watch.

So yes, it has defaulted to the lowest common denominator, which results in the oddity that higher frequency is not available when it's most needed. They will probably even manage to bugger up inserting the specials between the 5 minute headways. What a useless POS this operation has turned out to be.

There is a separate route number allocated to special services - LX - though curiously it is only for the Central-Moore Park section and doesn't extend to Randwick Racecourse. Presumably a timetable is loaded up as needed but one hasn't appeared in the TfNSW timetables for this particular one so far.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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hornetfig wrote: They'll run 10am - 7pm, for some reason.
What is your source for the timing as I cant find any - the trip finder does not appear to be using them as yet.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

Trip finder has a "make believe " timetable anyway, with no RTD. Trams seem to be running 4 or 5 minutes later than the t/t. If these are additional services purely for the shuttle, I doubt they would be listed. TUAG at its finest.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

Maybe it will be like my experience riding the 470 years ago: three trams arriving in a bunch every half hour instead of the even timetabled 10 minute intervals!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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boronia wrote:Trip finder has a "make believe " timetable anyway, with no RTD. Trams seem to be running 4 or 5 minutes later than the t/t. If these are additional services purely for the shuttle, I doubt they would be listed. TUAG at its finest.
I agree but why then show an entry in the timetable list which only says to use the trip finder? Very confusing.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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An interesting before and after video along L3. Note the tram left behind at the traffic light, never to be seen again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX3zmfWNsxc
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by STMPainter2018 »

tonyp wrote:An interesting before and after video along L3. Note the tram left behind at the traffic light, never to be seen again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX3zmfWNsxc
Never mind the fact that if you look closely the T light gave the tram the all clear and there was a very good chance the tram was just behind the car, just out of camera but whatever reinforces your biases I guess...

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by hornetfig »

Fleet Lists wrote:
hornetfig wrote: They'll run 10am - 7pm, for some reason.
What is your source for the timing as I cant find any - the trip finder does not appear to be using them as yet.
A relevant party at Transdev. Currently intended to run 25/5 through 5/6.
tonyp wrote:Prior to 1000 the headways on this section are 4 minutes, their closest all day.
Yeah but how does it work in PM peak then? Also there's already a Central-Moore Park shuttle that does a couple of trips for the schools in the AM peak.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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hornetfig wrote: A relevant party at Transdev. Currently intended to run 25/5 through 5/6.
Thanks for that. As it is called a Special Event service in the timetable list, I would normally go to the Event pages in Transport Info to see what is on during that time, but because of Covid-19, Transport Info is currently not showing that, so I am still none the wiser as to WHY this is operating.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by mandonov »

STMPainter2018 wrote: Never mind the fact that if you look closely the T light gave the tram the all clear and there was a very good chance the tram was just behind the car, just out of camera but whatever reinforces your biases I guess...
If we're talking about the moment at Kensington at 3:00 in the video then what I can see is the general traffic lanes getting a green, the bus light for the tram lane getting a white, yet the tram still needing to stop for a red T after departing the stop even though there's no way it could be in conflict with the pedestrian crossing. That red T doesn't change before the video has passed it, however the red T of the following intersection gains the white arrow indicating a change will occur shortly, but hadn't changed by the time we passed agian. It's not bias when there's clear evidence of poor implementation.

I'll repeat again to drive home the point: Traffic lights at a pedestrian crossing went green for every road user but the tram, even though road users in the exact same lane also got a green.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Linto63 »

Fleet Lists wrote:so I am still none the wiser as to WHY this is operating.
To provide a cbd connection to those using the temporary Moore Park carpark.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

mandonov wrote:
STMPainter2018 wrote: Never mind the fact that if you look closely the T light gave the tram the all clear and there was a very good chance the tram was just behind the car, just out of camera but whatever reinforces your biases I guess...
If we're talking about the moment at Kensington at 3:00 in the video then what I can see is the general traffic lanes getting a green, the bus light for the tram lane getting a white, yet the tram still needing to stop for a red T after departing the stop even though there's no way it could be in conflict with the pedestrian crossing. That red T doesn't change before the video has passed it, however the red T of the following intersection gains the white arrow indicating a change will occur shortly, but hadn't changed by the time we passed agian. It's not bias when there's clear evidence of poor implementation.

I'll repeat again to drive home the point: Traffic lights at a pedestrian crossing went green for every road user but the tram, even though road users in the exact same lane also got a green.
This is a regular occurrence at most lights along Anzac Pde. The white T lights lag well behind the green traffic lights and white B lights. Southbound at Dacey Ave, it is up to 20 seconds.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

Opposite to priority. Tram retardation. Good word for the system as a whole as well as it's bullet catching supporters.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

hornetfig wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 8:09 am

Yeah but how does it work in PM peak then? Also there's already a Central-Moore Park shuttle that does a couple of trips for the schools in the AM peak.
But pm headways are not closer than 5 min - that must be enough to make a difference.

A couple of extra trips inserted should be no sweat - different from keeping it up for about 3 hours. Do you know when those school trips (presumably for Sydney Boys and Girls Highs?) occur?

On a historical note, those must be the first school special trams since the late 1950s when the post-war baby boom demographic bomb caught up with the SE services and patronage started rising just when they wanted to close it all down. They had to start running specials for the new high schools as the babies passed 12 years of age. Lucky for the tram-haters in government that they got in before the enormous explosion of UNSW enrolments when they all hit 18 from about 1965 onwards. In 1966, UNSW was forced to hold lectures in the 800 capacity Science Theatre (it was filled to capacity too!) because all the normal lecture theatres were hopelessly inadequate. As for the buses, the task was beyond them and everybody took to driving or biking to university if they could afford it.
mandonov wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:03 am
If we're talking about the moment at Kensington at 3:00 in the video then what I can see is the general traffic lanes getting a green, the bus light for the tram lane getting a white, yet the tram still needing to stop for a red T after departing the stop even though there's no way it could be in conflict with the pedestrian crossing. That red T doesn't change before the video has passed it, however the red T of the following intersection gains the white arrow indicating a change will occur shortly, but hadn't changed by the time we passed agian. It's not bias when there's clear evidence of poor implementation.
Yes, I was drawing attention to the light, not the quality of the operation. They had similar problems setting up the light priority on Gold Coast. Australian traffic light engineers are trained to move cars, not people. They need a lot of push and shove from above to get it right, which happened in Queensland, but I'd say TfNSW doesn't have the will.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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As of 18 May, a new timetable for L2 and L3 is in effect which has reduced the journey time on L2 to 38 mins and L3 to 39 mins. This is per contract, so it won't improve beyond this and this timetable is likely to be permanent unless they change any headways in the future.

https://transportnsw.info/routes/lightrail

Apropos earlier discussions here with J Busworth, these trips are about 5-10 minutes slower (peak/off peak) than the present bus services from Kingsford and Randwick to Circular Quay, so it's going to be a bit of a bloody affair if they go ahead with the bus changes (terminating buses to interchange at the termini of the two lines). But they need to go ahead with this because one of the project objectives is to free up buses to cascade to other services. Also, add to the extra journey time the interchange transfer time.

It's interesting to compare the performance of these lines with the old tram system which had to contend with heavy mixed traffic through the city from Circular Quay to Moore Park Road, before it got onto reservation, as well as many more stops. CSELR has its own exclusive lanes throughout and far fewer stops. The running times on the present bus system are similar to those of the former trams because the buses have optional stopping (otherwise the buses would be slower). Bear in mind that the old route via Taylor Square was about 1 km shorter to Randwick and Kingsford than the new route via Central, so I have calculated commercial speed by measuring the old services out beyond to Coogee and Maroubra Junction.

L2

On L2 the 8.5 km end to end journey between Circular Quay and Randwick is done in 38 mins at an average speed of 13.4 km/h.

The former tram covered Circular Quay-Coogee (9.9 km) in 37 mins at an average of 16 km/h. In other words, by the time the L2 tram reaches Randwick, the old tram is already at Coogee Beach!

It's a slightly different story on the run from Central because the old trams had to battle in mixed traffic along Cleveland Street (compared to the new system's easy run along Devonshire Street) and started at Railway Square, whereas now the "Central" stop is on the other side at Chalmers Street.

So in this case, the L2 covers the 5.5 km from Central to Randwick in 19-22 mins (depending on direction - don't ask me to explain that!), at an average speed of 15-17.3 km/h.

The former tram covered Railway Square-Coogee (8.5 km) in 29 mins at an average speed of 17.5 km/h.

L3

It's a similar story on the L3 where Circular Quay-Kingsford (8.5 km) is covered in 39 mins at an average speed of 13 km/h.

The former tram covered Circular Quay-Maroubra Junction (9.9 km) in 36 mins at an average of 16.5 km/h. So similarly, by the time the L3 gets to Kingsford, the old tram is at Maroubra Junction.

From Central, the L3 covers the 5.5 km to Kingsford in 20-23 mins at an average of 14.3-16.5 km/h (depending on direction).

The former tram covered Railway Square to Maroubra Junction (8.4 km) in 28 mins at an average of 18 km/h.

The discrepancies are less when the routes are to and from Central rather than Circular Quay, partly because the comparison is not like for like with the old tram starting at Railway Square and running in the Cleveland Street congestion, but nevertheless the difference in average speeds is telling. The new service is clearly unnaturally slow.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

Central to Randwick and Central to Kingsford could be covered in 10 minutes if they had a T light waiting for them and didn't fartarse at their stops.

Pedantic micro management of speeds like in the Moore Park section doesn't help either.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by tonyp »

How about 14 minutes Quay to Randwick?

Image

Image

That was 1958.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

That is the sort of system the Eastern and south eastern suburbs should have had by now instead of relying on buses.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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tonyp wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 3:41 am
How about 14 minutes Quay to Randwick?

Image

Image

That was 1958.
That was also via Taylor Square though, which is feasible.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by hornetfig »

tonyp wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 12:48 am
But pm headways are not closer than 5 min - that must be enough to make a difference.

A couple of extra trips inserted should be no sweat - different from keeping it up for about 3 hours. Do you know when those school trips (presumably for Sydney Boys and Girls Highs?) occur?
hmm maybe. The "school" services are at like 8.15 and 8.35, something like that. There's an equivalent in the PM that will instead become part of this shuttle.

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by boronia »

The new timetable seems to have improved the Sunday services from 15 mins to 10 mins.

But there is still strange bunching. On an L3 into the city this afternoon, we were blocked from entering Chalmers Plat 1 for a few seconds; when we stopped at the Pitt St lights, there was still a tram ahead in Haymarket stop. We followed it to Hay St, where we were held for a long light phase; when we got to TH, it was just leaving QVB. When I got off at QVB, there was yet another tram pulling into TH stop. I also noticed 3 closely spaced outbound services passing along George St.

Coming back later, we got blocked by the light on Anzac changing to red as we approached Allison Rd; however we got an instant white T when the traffic lights went green, rather than the previous 20 second delay.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Post by Swift »

boronia wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:52 am


Coming back later, we got blocked by the light on Anzac changing to red as we approached Allison Rd; however we got an instant white T when the traffic lights went green, rather than the previous 20 second delay.
Why do they do that delay?? What possible safety concern is there except a bid to separate the LRV from as many cars as possible?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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hornetfig wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:13 am

hmm maybe. The "school" services are at like 8.15 and 8.35, something like that. There's an equivalent in the PM that will instead become part of this shuttle.
Are the 610e, 891/3/8 still running or have they finally canned them?
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