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Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:05 am

TNSW know best. You must not question it!!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Aurora » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:12 am

tonyp wrote:I agree, they could be taking passengers to and from Surry Hills and Moore Park.

Makes it look better for the government when all of a sudden L3 opens with all these extra services for Moore Park.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Sat Feb 15, 2020 10:22 am

Usual government smoke and mirrors.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Sat Feb 15, 2020 11:31 am

tonyp wrote:I agree, they could be taking passengers to and from Surry Hills and Moore Park.

Surry Hills doesn't seem to be much of a passenger generator; and lets not forget they didn't want a tram line up there anyway, so why pander to them?

Likewise, Moore Park isn't much of an attraction unless there are events on there.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Sat Feb 15, 2020 2:31 pm

On my several trips I've found people constantly exchanging at the Surry Hills stop. Not crowds, but a constant small flow of people. Agreed Moore Park is a non-event except at certain times.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby hornetfig » Sat Feb 15, 2020 3:55 pm

buzzkill wrote:The tram got 'zero' traffic light priority. It waited at Lang Rd. It waited when crossing Alison Rd.


Lang Rd has zero pre-emption because it would cause gridlock. Originally there was a fixed phase in the whole cycle where the tram lights could go green. They've tinkered with it and now it looks like it can go at one of two spaces in a cycle, which can cut 15-30s out of the wait.

Alison Rd at Darley Rd is set up like most major intersections on the route. There is a small amount of variance in the length of the main road phases (1. Alison Rd green and 2. Darley Rd green). The tram can pre-empt these cycles in a small window, otherwise it will wait until the minimum phase time is achieved. The tram green can be inserted at the end of either of the two main phases, so tram delays are minimal.

The biggest problem is when two trams cross. The lights are very finicky about triggering for both tram directions simultaneously. This can mean a tram waits way longer than it would normally and should normally. And this problem occurs at the itty bitty intersections which the tram can have absolute priority too, like Clara St Randwick, Hospital Rd Randwick or the shared path crossing in Centennial Park.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby STMPainter2018 » Sat Feb 15, 2020 9:41 pm

buzzkill wrote:I recently saw news of a new 38-min. operating time so I decided to take LR today from Town Hall to Randwick.
It was a disaster...

The tram literally got stuck in Chinatown for 5 minutes. The driver did not want to close the doors for some reason, and when he finally closed them there was red light for almost 3 minutes.
The tram rode at okay (though still slow) speed within the tunnel and a bit before Royal Randwick stop, but otherwise the driver seemed terrified of any speed above 30km/h.
The tram got 'zero' traffic light priority. It waited at Lang Rd. It waited when crossing Alison Rd. It even waited at Botany St. and even tiny Clara St. intersection traffic lights. It even stopped in front of the hospital, for no reason at all. No traffic light was small enough to bring the entire LR carrying 100+pax. to a complete standstill for a minute or so, to make sure about 10-15 cars carrying a total of 30 pax. could pass.

The stop in Royal Randwick was also extended because they had to change drivers, which took almost three minutes.

The result: Town Hall to Randwick in 38 minutes!
In comparison, the timetabled LR service is 28 minutes, and even local buses stopping in every stop cover it in 25-30 minutes at peak hour.

The tram was airconditioned and comfortable and ride was pleasant but the travel time is just out of this world. It is sad to see perfectly good infrastructure that can deliver a lot of benefit to commuters, being so incompetently managed.

My observation is that a lot needs to happen before these are a credible alternative to buses.
Drivers need to be taught to not be frightened to drive above 40km/h
Traffic lights priority needs a lot of work.
The dwell time needs to be managed, with no random idle stops.

Until all this happens, I will avoid them like I would avoid a used handkerchief from a quarantine station...

Okay honey, there's no need to be so hyperbolic. You know what I did this evening? I took a tram from Surry Hills to Circular Quay. It was timetabled to be at SH by 7:44, and arrive at CQ by 8:05. Guess what? It did exactly that. And it had departed Randwick at 7:30 so it was a 35 minute trip and it met it's target time! And I got a decent run; priority and speed in Devonshire St was good, a little slower in the CBD but nothing that was a "DISASTER". I had no complaints. At this point though, I am just OVER everyone going on and on about the bloody operations of the L2 and how what a travesty they are and they should do this and they should do that etc. etc. etc.! Transdev can run the **** **** line the way they **** **** want to for all I **** **** care; I'm just done with all this pathetic whinging over a **** **** mode of transport that I'm just grateful has made a comeback in this **** **** amazing city. There's much bigger things in this world to worry about and this is not one of them. I mean it; I'm OVER IT!
Last edited by STMPainter2018 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Sun Feb 16, 2020 1:08 am

Why are you so angry chum? You had a good experience but expect others to think the same way as you because you did?
Are you going to go off at the myriad of people on various social media platforms that aren't exactly enthusiastic too?
Oh they aren't in the know behind the scenes with contacts from within as you seem to spout lately, so they should keep their opinions to themselves?
If a customer isn't satisfied with a product because it doesn't meet expectations they should shut up as they aren't in the loop on how it's made and the r&d that goes into it?
You're coming off as an arrogant petulant prima donna and you aren't going to make people come around to your way of thinking that way. Your short travel time is another's ball and chain. Deal with it.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby matthewg » Sun Feb 16, 2020 8:19 am

tonyp wrote:On my several trips I've found people constantly exchanging at the Surry Hills stop. Not crowds, but a constant small flow of people. Agreed Moore Park is a non-event except at certain times.


Not only is Devonshire full of many pubs and restaurants, but the area is also a hotbed of boutique technology startups. This would generate lot of casual use of the tram. The type of employee of these tech firms is more likely to be a non car driving millenial who will use public transport over driving their own car than average, and going out to lunch in a gastro-pub or other eatery is a part of the days work.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby STMPainter2018 » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:31 pm

And just for the record, as a follow up to my post from yesterday, I took the tram from Central to Randwick today and it was a total of 20 MINUTES; a vast improvement from when I last rode it on opening day. Oh and guess what we had during the trip? TRAFFIC LIGHT PRIORITY! As in, the lights gave the tram all clear to continue on prior to it reaching the intersection. So we did not have to stop! The only times where we did stop at intersections were at South Dowling St, the back drive way to the racecourse near the end of Wansey Road, and Clara St opposite the hospital entrance. And even then, we only stopped at each intersection for about 10-20 seconds! Everything else? Just shot through like a Bondi tram! Except it was a Randwick tram. But it was a very efficient trip. Personally it could do with a little tinkering here like an increase in some of the speed limits but other than that, still no complaints. Even the trip back - where I went all the way up to Town Hall this time - was running well. The only intersection that was a problem was Lang Rd where we were stuck for a minute but that wasn't a tram only problem; the buses next to us had that same issue. But I can now speak from definite, full experience, that trips on the L2 have improved substantially from last December. All are timetabled to be approximately 35 minutes and both inbound and outbound trips meet that mark. So haters and whiners can SUCK IT!
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby swtt » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:41 pm

STMPainter2018 wrote:And just for the record, as a follow up to my post from yesterday, I took the tram from Central to Randwick today and it was a total of 20 MINUTES; a vast improvement from when I last rode it on opening day. Oh and guess what we had during the trip? TRAFFIC LIGHT PRIORITY! As in, the lights gave the tram all clear to continue on prior to it reaching the intersection. So we did not have to stop! The only times where we did stop at intersections were at South Dowling St, the back drive way to the racecourse near the end of Wansey Road, and Clara St opposite the hospital entrance. And even then, we only stopped at each intersection for about 10-20 seconds! Everything else? Just shot through like a Bondi tram! Except it was a Randwick tram. But it was a very efficient trip. Personally it could do with a little tinkering here like an increase in some of the speed limits but other than that, still no complaints. Even the trip back - where I went all the way up to Town Hall this time - was running well. The only intersection that was a problem was Lang Rd where we were stuck for a minute but that wasn't a tram only problem; the buses next to us had that same issue. But I can now speak from definite, full experience, that trips on the L2 have improved substantially from last December. All are timetabled to be approximately 35 minutes and both inbound and outbound trips meet that mark. So haters and whiners can SUCK IT!


Apparently yesterday's L2 service was timetabled to be 34 min from CQ to Randwick. Some faster trials I presume.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Aurora » Mon Feb 17, 2020 3:49 am

NextThere still showing 45 minutes Randwick to Quay today with times up to five minutes out from the posted Transport timetable. Transport’s timetable shows 40 minute trips.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Mon Feb 17, 2020 5:56 am

STMPainter2018 wrote:Just shot through like a Bondi tram!

Some verification of the comparison:

The Bondi tram averaged 16.3 km/h (37 minutes for 10.1 km).

L2 averages 12.75 km/h per current timetable (40 minutes for 8.5 km).
If it manages to do the trip in 35 minutes it averages 14.5 km/h.

(However, if it could do it in 30 minutes it would average 17 km/h, finally just beating the Bondi tram and just 1 km/h ahead of the average speed of the Melbourne system, which is regarded as a slow mixed-traffic system. It would be at the low end of the average range of typical European tram systems.)

The Bondi tram had very little exclusive ROW or even exclusive lanes. L2 has exclusive lanes or ROW for its whole length.
The Bondi tram had some three dozen intermediate stops. L2 has 12.

The Bondi tram ran one minute headways in peaks (with coupled sets of 240 passenger capacity). L2 runs every 8 minutes in peaks (with coupled sets of 450 passenger capacity).

The Bondi tram moved about 7,000 commuters per hour in peaks (about 3 times what the present 333 bus moves and a little faster than 333), yet still with plenty of spare capacity. The whole of CSELR (both branches) should at least be able to at least match this, which is the main reason for the project.

The Bondi tram had to contend with traffic conditions like this:

TaylorSq2.jpg
TaylorSq2.jpg (92.28 KiB) Viewed 405 times


L2 contends with traffic conditions by avoiding them:

Image

Overall, in spite of having every operational disadvantage against it, the Bondi tram beat L2 on almost all counts.

Don't be like Sydney Light Rail.

Be like the Bondi Tram.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby gascoyne » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:23 am

You can't match 7000 passengers per hour if you're running 15 trams each carrying 450. That's only 6750 passengers! And it's not certain that 15 trams per hour will be sustained when L3 opens next month.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Mon Feb 17, 2020 7:46 am

gascoyne wrote:You can't match 7000 passengers per hour if you're running 15 trams each carrying 450. That's only 6750 passengers! And it's not certain that 15 trams per hour will be sustained when L3 opens next month.

Well I was rounding off. I don't see why there shouldn't be 15 trams an hour next month. The system was designed for 30 trams an hour. (The Bondi line also had much higher capacity than those actual patronage figures.) What will be constraining capacity on CSELR is how much traffic light priority they can get and how good operational discipline is. If the operation is near to perfect, you shouldn't see any trams in the third platform at CQ or Central. They're either for redundancy in the case of CQ or for insertion and reversing of event trams between regular runs in the case of Central.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Linto63 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:02 am

The problem with trying to benchmark the current trams system to the former system is that so many factors have changed making any comparisons drawn, at best, distorted. Anybody who thought the new system was going to take over from where the old one left off was kidding themselves, the world has moved on.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boronia » Mon Feb 17, 2020 8:15 am

I keep seeing references to "a tram every 10 minutes" on each line (current freq on L2). That will equate to 12 trams per hour.

Will this go the originally promised 8 mins when the L3 opens or the buses get cut back?
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Mon Feb 17, 2020 9:06 am

Linto63 wrote:The problem with trying to benchmark the current trams system to the former system is that so many factors have changed making any comparisons drawn, at best, distorted. Anybody who thought the new system was going to take over from where the old one left off was kidding themselves, the world has moved on.

That doesn't make any sense at all. It's the same technology, for the same purpose, in the same city, but, even better, this new line has almost all the advantages that the old didn't, so there's absolutely no reason that it shouldn't perform better. The main practical change in the operating environment is that control of intersections by signal box and policemen has been replaced by programmed traffic lights. With smart programming, this can be turned to advantage. The only other significant change is that the old system was run by very experienced people, the new one isn't and this has most bearing on the present issues.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby moa999 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:00 am

tonyp wrote:
in the same city, but, even better, this new line has almost all the advantages that the old didn't, so there's absolutely no reason that it shouldn't perform better. The main practical change in the operating environment is that control of intersections by signal box and policemen has been replaced by programmed traffic lights.


Changed substantially since we first and last had trams.
Much larger population, bigger roads, much more traffic and even versus the late 1950s a lot more signalised intersections.

It was only in the 50s that having a family car become somewhat common, and even then it was very much a one car family.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boeing » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:26 am

One change is the "safety culture" being implemented to protect people from themselves.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby tonyp » Mon Feb 17, 2020 10:39 am

moa999 wrote:Changed substantially since we first and last had trams.
Much larger population, bigger roads, much more traffic and even versus the late 1950s a lot more signalised intersections.

It was only in the 50s that having a family car become somewhat common, and even then it was very much a one car family.

Yes more people around now, inner city surface roads still basically the same, there were already plenty of cars on the roads in the late 50s with stupendous traffic jams in the absence of modern traffic management (lived experience), growing habit back then of driving cars into the city and inner suburbs since curtailed by parking restrictions - replaced by a lot of driving through to other destinations. On the other side of the coin, for trams, infinitely better running environment and less patronage to contend with (so far) than in 1950s. There is absolutely nothing in the technology nor the operating environment that should be causing them to run less well than in the 1950s.

Safety culture - not so sure. This is not something obvious in other systems. Perhaps Sydney has employed a few excessives who need to be hosed down.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby boeing » Mon Feb 17, 2020 11:45 am

Well, an example of safety culture is the slowing of the LR to 20kph around the Anzac Parade into Alison curve. That's done because there is a signalised pedestrian crossing and they are concerned people will ignore the signals and step infront of the tram (or bus). I'm guessing similar thinking slows the George Street run as well.

And, although I never rode the old trams, I don't think they had doors like we do today so people could jump on and off a moving vehicle. This must surely increase the dwell time?

These are changes I think have come about since the old tram runs and which probably can contribute to the slower running.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Swift » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:13 pm

The saying about the Bronte...sorry Bondi tram was about absolute speed not average speed and there is no way any Randwick tram could be remotely described as shooting though in any section.
That is key to their comparable average speed despite more arduous conditions conspiring to slow their overall trip.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby covo95 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:16 pm

It seems to me that it all depends on the drivers themselves as to whether the trams they are driving take 38min or 45-50min to do the route end to end.
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Re: Light rail gets the green light: stage 1 UNSW to CBD

Postby Linto63 » Mon Feb 17, 2020 12:24 pm

tonyp wrote:That doesn't make any sense at all. It's the same technology, for the same purpose, in the same city, but, even better, this new line has almost all the advantages that the old didn't, so there's absolutely no reason that it shouldn't perform better. The main practical change in the operating environment is that control of intersections by signal box and policemen has been replaced by programmed traffic lights. With smart programming, this can be turned to advantage. The only other significant change is that the old system was run by very experienced people, the new one isn't and this has most bearing on the present issues.
Apart from the steel wheels running on rails, everything has changed. From trams, to signalling systems, to the amount of vehicles on the road, to the number of traffic lights, to population density, to health and safety regimes..and it goes on. It's not even close to being like for like.
tonyp wrote:Safety culture - not so sure. This is not something obvious in other systems.
Every country in the western world has a safety culture, it's a requirement for public indemnity insurance. Might not be immediately obvious to the naked eye, but all operators will have them. The days of drivers having the discretion as to when they can override the rules and regulations are over. Safety assessments tend to be conducted by independent parties, and by ignoring, an operator would leave itself legally should they chose to ignore, so they go along with it.
covo95 wrote:It seems to me that it all depends on the drivers themselves as to whether the trams they are driving take 38min or 45-50min to do the route end to end.
The only variables in the driver's control is the level of acceleration / deceleration and speed with which they close the doors. The rest is governed by the signalling system.
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