Airconditioning in Melbourne buses

[Paul_Nicholson]

Separately we've been discussing the issue of cleanliness on Melbourne private route buses.

But what about air-conditioning?

It seems most buses in regular daily service are now air-conditioned?

But when the weather gets warm as it was yesterday, Friday, (>30C) many drivers seem to get perverse (?) pleasure in having passengers endure stifling vehicles.

What would be the reason for this?

Buses with big windows get rather warm when the temperature passes the early 20s and hot when it is around 30 or more outside.

Yet drivers seem to be reluctant to have the air-conditioning operating. Yesterday I rode several vehicles on different routes yet only about 40% had the air-conditioning working.

How would a hot bus attract occasional passengers? And why would it be in drivers' interests to have passengers endure a stifling bus?

I think we've asked this question previously but do bus companies have written policies for drivers to follow in respect of passenger comfort inside the vehicles?

Paul in Melbourne

[Paul_Nicholson]

Case in point; right now I'm on a Ventura Designline MAN. 26C outside but must be well over 30C inside. Big windows and no air conditioning.
Just as well it's more cloudy then sunshine this morning.

[dex]

The air con units don't really do much in buses anyway, on a day over 35 degrees, it's lucky to be under 30-32 inside a bus. Coachair systems work ok but the thermo kings (in my experience) require a lot of maintenance. I've seen one bus in 8 years that is constantly in the workshop for air con faults. Thursday it had new pullys, bearings and belts fitted, Friday it was back in the workshop with two mechanics inside the vehicle and it wasn't dropping below 38 inside, that's undercover.
Then there is a high failure rate thanks to drivers lowering the settings to 18 degrees, it pushes the unit beyond it's limits and the condensers freeze up or they spit belts on the compressors.
I always ran the air con or heater, but pax would open windows and make the air con/heater redundant. Some days I would turn it off if a few windows were open to avoid the air con packing up and waiting for another bus, also avoiding unnecessary strain on the vehicle in general. If I had my way, all bus windows would be tinted, it would greatly reduce the temperatures inside and put less strain on air cons.
Having said all that Paul, if the air con works, windows are shut, put it on.
If you have had the bus since sun up, run the air con in the morning and adjust the temp accordingly through the day, if the bus has been sitting in the yard all morning, they will always struggle to cool down in direct sunlight all day, especially since the doors are opening and closing all the time.

[dex]

Also, knowing you're a fan of the ole smart bus, Transdev aren't big on air con units working, as long as the tyres are almost round and near roadworthy, they're pretty content to send the bus out. Drivers are the ones who suffer and those who tend to speak up usually don't last too much longer, thus an example is made of them, so most drivers turn into chefs and cook all day.

[howlerbus]

The air con units don't really do much in buses anyway, on a day over 35 degrees, it's lucky to be under 30-32 inside a bus. Coachair systems work ok but the thermo kings (in my experience) require a lot of maintenance. I've seen one bus in 8 years that is constantly in the workshop for air con faults. Thursday it had new pullys, bearings and belts fitted, Friday it was back in the workshop with two mechanics inside the vehicle and it wasn't dropping below 38 inside, that's undercover.
Then there is a high failure rate thanks to drivers lowering the settings to 18 degrees, it pushes the unit beyond it's limits and the condensers freeze up or they spit belts on the compressors.
I always ran the air con or heater, but pax would open windows and make the air con/heater redundant. Some days I would turn it off if a few windows were open to avoid the air con packing up and waiting for another bus, also avoiding unnecessary strain on the vehicle in general. If I had my way, all bus windows would be tinted, it would greatly reduce the temperatures inside and put less strain on air cons.
Having said all that Paul, if the air con works, windows are shut, put it on.
If you have had the bus since sun up, run the air con in the morning and adjust the temp accordingly through the day, if the bus has been sitting in the yard all morning, they will always struggle to cool down in direct sunlight all day, especially since the doors are opening and closing all the time.

A decent aircon will work well even above 35 degrees, Adelaides Custom bodied buses tend to have decent air con, but Volgrens tend to struggle

[Paul_Nicholson]

I realised that the two rear windows of the bus I was on this morning had been opened so that probably didn't help the situation. It would appear that after some passenger representation the driver chose to turn on the air conditioning along the route.

If buses can be kept cool in other operating environments overseas perhaps it's another indication that Australia simply lacks the human and financial resources to "get things done"?

Perhaps the current situation with both cleanliness and coolness could be turned into something of an offbeat advertising campaign?

Paul in Melbourne

[dex]

Are the conditions overseas the same? Even if a bus sits overnight, windows are shut to keep out dust and they retain a lot of heat. I liken them to a green house in some ways. On a run of hot days and nights, it's near on impossible even from the start of the day t oget the bus to a comfortable temperature inside.
The other the problem the driver may have had (although unlikely) is when a bus does cool down, there is always that one passenger who jumps up and down about being cold, the air con is turned down or off, no sooner does that happen the bus heats up and Cheryl and her shopping jump off and are gone as quick as she boarded.
I stress the point though, if the air con works....use it. Some drivers (and a major company) aren't as passenger (not customers) focused, the driver has a window they keep open or their space keep cool as it is slightly enclosed.
A thermo king unit holds 7 kilos of gas, if the level drops it won't work as well, it all comes down to maintenance in the end.
I have seen some managers from another company ask drivers to turn off air cons to avoid engines over heating.

Paul, have you tried contacting the operator/s and asking what their policy is in regards to air conditioning? I have a feeling PTV will tow the air cons are mandatory line.

[jamesadams7]

My mother, a rare bus user, took a Transdev bus today to Westfield Doncaster to avoid the pre-Christmas parking nightmare. After she got back, she proclaimed how she will never catch a bus again, after nearly having an asthma attack on the way home due to the hot and stuffy conditions on board the bus.

I've questioned Transdev reps before about the lack of air-con on their routes. They always rationalise it by trying to describe the shortcomings of the air-con systems, and how they can only reduce the temperature of the bus by 5-10C. So if it's 35C outside, it could still be 30C inside the bus. Although the way I see it, if it's 35C outside, it sometimes feels like it's 40C on board the bus!

In comparison, Yarra Trams, whom also encounter some problems with the air-con on their trams, will generally take trams with faulty air-conditioning out of service. I don't think that ever happens on the bus network.

[tonyw]

Air-con always seems to be working well on Dyson's buses ...

[dex]

Air-con always seems to be working well on Dyson's buses ...

Tinted windows my friend!
Hence my burning desire for Elle McPh...Tinted windows on buses.

[Paul_Nicholson]

I must admit I didn't ride any route buses in Dubai when I was there earlier this year but I wondered how they managed in the summer temperatures of 50C?

What about Singapore and Hong Kong where buses operate in both high temperatures and high humidity?

Also, buses operating in cold climate cities; are they able to organise heating that works?

Paul in Melbourne

[Alstom 888M]

Over the last couple of days I've had most of the aircons on my buses working, however scrotes keep opening the windows so they can smoke. To avoid the aircon overloading due to the windows being open and causing the bus to overheat and break down I simply switch it off. I'm fairly well attuned to coping with hot climates so I can cope with the window open to a point.

I don't confront said passenger for smoking or opening the windows for exactly the same reason as I didn't when they boarded the bus without touching on their Myki.

[Paul_Nicholson]

I must say yesterday I rode an older Ventura bus on route 737 (end to end I add) where the air conditioning was working perfectly and made a pleasant trip.

The previous posting does confirm what I've noticed as a regular passenger over many years; the ferals are firmly in control. It is probably something everyone simply has to accept as very much part of Australian society and culture.

In 2015, for occupational health and other reasons it's clearly not the role of the driver to challenge passengers. I have no doubt some passengers are armed but in my experience it is rare to actually see a weapon on a route bus in Melbourne.

Paul in Melbourne

[scott]

Ventura are pretty good with the air conditioning on their fleet, I have only had one instance so far this year with the A/C not working on a bubble bus. Some units work better than others, but they beat Transdev hands down. The older Densos are good as well as the latest batch with the Coachair units.

[Alstom 888M]

In 2015, for occupational health and other reasons it's clearly not the role of the driver to challenge passengers. I have no doubt some passengers are armed but in my experience it is rare to actually see a weapon on a route bus in Melbourne.

Because we know that by the time you identify your attacker as carrying a weapon it is too late.

Yes. Our taxes routinely go toward those who have no desire to contribute to society and they repay the rest of us by being a violent thug. Everyone else suffers because those that work in the "public services" (most of which are of course no longer truly public) become disenfranchised and no longer care about their customers/clients/passengers/whatever.

Give me the adequate training, resources, and if need be; police backup, and I would be happy to challenge the ferals. But I am not happy to be dragged in front of HR for doing what should be part of my job.

[Peter1805]

A lot of the Designline MAN fleet used on the orbital routes (mainly 903) cannot cope with hot days - either the aircon fails, or the engine overheats, or both. So drivers are often in the situation of having to turn off the A/C to avoid having to stop due to an engine over-heat.

In the old days, there was a problem with A/C belts flying off in the "bubbles", but the previous operator seemed to sort that out in the end.

Various attempts have been made to sort out the overheating problem by the current operator, including extra holes created in the rear body-work, etc. But ultimately the issue seems to be that these buses are just not up to the job, at least in Melbourne's warmer weather in summer.

Going to be some interesting days ahead in Jan, Feb and March, as it's forecast to be a long, hot summer.

[Alstom 888M]

The MANs still all like to chuck belts every so often. If you look around you actually see them on the road all the time.

[MCI9]

Iff drivers turned them on and pax did not open windows (biggest prob) they just cope on hot days simple but must be maintained

[Paul_Nicholson]

I've some the past two days riding BCC buses in Brisbane and have been impressed with the effectiveness of the air conditioning. I'm no technical expert but it seems they gave e bigger air conditioning than the typical Melbourne route bus.

[burrumbus]

I would agree with that Paul from experience in Brisbane.In fact most of the track operators do it well.

[jarf]

Of course, Brisbane also doesn't generally get the super-hot days that Melbourne does. The weather is generally more consistent up there, being warm and humid year round.

Air conditioners are generally best at dehumidifying air rather than actually cooling it by any significant amount, so its effect is a lot more noticeable up there.

[Heihachi_73]

Ventura still has a few non-AC buses around it seems. Saw one on the 742 yesterday morning (CR221L), still in its original blue livery, the only air conditioning being that the front flap on the roof was open! Also saw an early Northcoast (Buddina) later that day, also in blue and with no air conditioning.

Maybe Transdev should have ripped the AC units off the MAN MK2s and sold them to the highest bidder... if they weren't already trashed like the buses themselves were (I can't remember if the AC worked or not - knowing them, they probably had no gas left and simply threw out hot air!)

[krustyklo]

Maybe Transdev should have ripped the AC units off the MAN MK2s and sold them to the highest bidder... if they weren't already trashed like the buses themselves were (I can't remember if the AC worked or not - knowing them, they probably had no gas left and simply threw out hot air!)

Whilst not as freezing as I can remember them getting, they still seemed to work the last few hot days I travelled in one. I had less fear about getting home in a Mk II with working air conditioning on a hot day than more recent models of bus with the air conditioning not being used at all, despite being available, due to overheating issues.

[man mk1]

i know for sure my mk2 air con works

[Alstom 888M]

The MkII I used to drive in service when I worked at Fitzroy worked well as units, but when the bus itself was under pressure from heat and heavy loading I would be forced to switch it off to avoid engine overheating leaving the bus on the side of the road (sound familiar?). Because they were manual aircon (rather than "climate control") I would run the aircon while idle or on the flat, then turn it off while driving up hills or when the bus was at capacity.

My understanding is that many early low floors at several operators (mostly Volgren CR221L) were not fitted with air-conditioning. Ventura went for Northcoast, Custom, and Designline bodies not sure on their history. National were Custom, I think their first purchases were high-floor Mercedes O405.

I was told went I moved to Footscray by my depot trainer that Melbourne Bus Link were (and still are) the only operator in Melbourne to have a fully low-floor air-conditioned fleet. Their first purchases were 3x Scania L94UB (#352-354) and 3x Volgren B10BLE (#355-357) all with Volgren CR222L bodywork with Thermoking AC. Apparently we got to vote for the chassis. They received six buses each year of their existence, and they all have very discreet differences between years.