Bus Timetable changes / reprints - 22 April 2012

[Matty G]

I believe the 562 will be re-routed to run from Whittlesea to NORTHLAND via Plenty Road, to take in parts of the 563.

[Newcastle Flyer]

This is the date for the new Metro trains timetable, which will see the opening of South Morang rail extension

I thought the South Morang extension was canned in favour of buses?

[Craig]

This is the date for the new Metro trains timetable, which will see the opening of South Morang rail extension

I thought the South Morang extension was canned in favour of buses?

You are correct that it was defered, with the 571 Trainlink implemented in December 2003 as an interim measure, connecting with every train at Epping.

At one stage it looked like it might not be bullt until 2021 , but community pressure for the extension continued, and the project was finally given the green light in 2008. There is a good summary of the various commitments and broken promises over the ALP's time in office here - http://mc2.vicnet.net.au/home/smra/web/keyfacts.html

Some more bus timetables now available online include: 578, 579, 580, 582, 677, 679, 691, 693, 789, 790, 791, 799, 891, 893 & 894.

Of note, 799 will now run hourly on Saturdays instead of every 50 - 55 minutes, with a slightly later finish as well. 799 once ran every 40 minutes interpeak & Saturdays, through-routing with the (shorter) 798 to Cranbourne West at Lyall Street. However, 798 was merged with the 789/790/791 in March 2003, as a bare-bones way to extend the Frankston routes from Lyall Street to the station (which should have been done by default when the electrification opened in 1995..), leaving 799 to be operated by a single bus at reduced headways.

Full timetables for Route 742 & 892 have also appeared (previously only partial timetables were available). The weekend run times on 742 between Oakleigh & Glen Waverley remain longer than on a weekday, an issue that has previously discussed here at length.

Additionally, the following routes will also have changes, but new timetables not online yet: 520, 554 & 557

Kind Regards


Craig

[krustyklo]

I believe the 562 will be re-routed to run from Whittlesea to NORTHLAND via Plenty Road, to take in parts of the 563.

Interesting, I thought history never repeated

Not sure it's a good idea unless a rail connection is provided by diverting the short distance to South Morang or something like that.

[Craig]

The weekend run times on 742 between Oakleigh & Glen Waverley remain longer than on a weekday, an issue that has previously discussed here at length.

Since having another look, I note that 742 now runs at 40 minute intervals all day on Saturdays, instead of every 30 minutes before 1pm & then hourly until 9pm. This is achieved with the same number of trips.

Kind Regards


Craig

[giarc]

I believe the 562 will be re-routed to run from Whittlesea to NORTHLAND via Plenty Road, to take in parts of the 563.

Interesting, I thought history never repeated

Not sure it's a good idea unless a rail connection is provided by diverting the short distance to South Morang or something like that.

As long it is isn't a 40+ min service (on a good day). It might almost be time to install some part-time bus lanes in Plenty Rd. Not sure how replacing the 563 will help so much. Some time back there were grumblings that the Plenty Rd section of 563 was too much aligned with the 86 Tram to be viable.

I imagine the 572/520 service freq will also increase particularly since it passes the key locations of Mernda and Doreen?

Maybe the 571 could be the 'East West' Link from Greensborough to South Morang.

[RailwayBus]

Interesting, I thought history never repeated

Not sure it's a good idea unless a rail connection is provided by diverting the short distance to South Morang or something like that.

As long it is isn't a 40+ min service (on a good day). It might almost be time to install some part-time bus lanes in Plenty Rd. Not sure how replacing the 563 will help so much. Some time back there were grumblings that the Plenty Rd section of 563 was too much aligned with the 86 Tram to be viable.

I imagine the 572/520 service freq will also increase particularly since it passes the key locations of Mernda and Doreen?

Maybe the 571 could be the 'East West' Link from Greensborough to South Morang.

571 will not be surviving either.

I don't get why people keep grumbling about the 563 along Plenty Road. It doesn't duplicate the tram at all. One heads into town and the other heads to Northland. Sure they happen to follow each other for a while, but they serve two totally different purposes, it can't be considered duplication. Not to mention, 563 deviates to serve housing estates.

[Craig]

I don't get why people keep grumbling about the 563 along Plenty Road. It doesn't duplicate the tram at all. One heads into town and the other heads to Northland. Sure they happen to follow each other for a while, but they serve two totally different purposes, it can't be considered duplication. Not to mention, 563 deviates to serve housing estates.

Unfortunately, there isn't an unlimited budget for bus services (or public transport), and therefore not everyone can enjoy a one-seat ride everywhere - some people will need to change vehicles at some point to get where they want to go, even for a slightly longer trip. Spending kilometres in one area ultimately reduces the money available for another route or area.

In this case, the 563 follows the high-frequency 86 tram for roughly 10km, minus the small deviation into Mt Cooper estate. 10km a trip which could otherwise be spent to provide a new feeder route in a growth area, or boost one of many hourly routes across Melbourne to half hourly, or run SmartBus routes more often on weekends, etc.

Even without the 563 (or 562) along Plenty Rd, 566 to Northland covers parts of Bundoora & Kingsbury in the vicinity of Plenty Rd (I'm mainly referring to the old 568 section, south of Grimshaw Street).

Other than Northland, residents in Bundoora & Mill Park have the option of shopping at Epping Plaza, Greensborough Plaza & Westifeld Plenty Valley, the first 2 which also have cinemas (with plans for cinemas at Plenty Valley in coming years). Epping Plaza is 69,000 m2, not that smaller than Northland (79,000m2), I don't know if there a strong case to link the area with a fourth regional/sub-regional shopping centre now these 3 centres have expanded.

It's relatively easy to get to Northland by transferring off the frequent 86 tram to another bus, especially with some checking with the Metlink journey planner beforehand - on weekdays there is about about 5 buses an hour at Bolderwood Pde (556 & 567), 5 buses an hour at Tyler St (555 & 566) and 7 buses an hour at Murray Rd (527 & 903). On weekends 563 only runs every 70 mins (and was only every 90 mins (Saturdays) until 5 years ago), so in even with reduced weekend bus frequencies, the transfer is still not completely unattractive to now, given the trams are still running rather frequently.

And let's remember that there are large parts of Reservoir (along 552, 553, 558, 561) where you have to change buses to reach Northland, its not unreasonable to ask those in Mill Park or Bundoora to do the same.

Judging from the patronage I've seen in Mt Cooper, I suspect most of the residents who want to use PT walk the 600m or so to Plenty Rd to get a tram, rather than wait for a half-hourly bus that doesn't take them to a railway station anyway (i.e. they have transfer to an 86 anyway to get anywhere). Sometimes there needs to be trade-off of not having a service within 400m (the general Melbourne benchmark), but having access to high quality public transport within 800m. An occasional deviation on 566 into Mt Cooper could settle any concerns though.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Kind Regards


Craig

EDIT: Slightly edited sentence about 563 weekend frequency comparison to transferring from tram to bus.

[RailwayBus]

Now let's look at this the way an average PT user would:

• An average PT user would pick a shopping centre to travel to based on what is available at the shopping centre, rather than size. Some people might want a specific store that is not available at the other one.
• An average PT user travelling to the shopping centre may actually work there and won't have a choice of travelling somewhere else. Or they may be making a transfer to another PT service.
• An average PT user won't count how many buses per hour at three seperate intersecting stops on the tram route. Take away a direct service and people will drive if they have the option to. It's as simple as that. People don't want confusion.
• An average PT user won't bother "changing buses" if they only run every 70 minutes.
• An average PT user won't accept "Reservoir doesn't have a bus to Northland" as justification for taking away theirs!
• An average PT user might be disabled and can't travel on a tram, or might be elderly and doesn't drive and shouldn't be subjected to obscure transfer options and double journey times.
• Not to mention, a deviation of the bus route into Mount Cooper won't help anyone who lives along the Plenty Road corridor who wants to go to Northland.

Reality is, what is okay or acceptable for a gunzel who knows PT timetables and network and can get around with a million options, is totally confusing for the travelling public. We should not be removing direct services. We should be making the network simpler, easier to understand, more user friendly, taking people where they want to go. When looking at public transport we have to think the way someone using it would think.

I understand that you can't always have a direct service from everywhere to everywhere, but this is one example where we have one so it shouldn't be taken away.


...and getting there is even worse!

[Craig]

An average PT user would pick a shopping centre to travel to based on what is available at the shopping centre, rather than size. Some people might want a specific store that is not available at the other one

It's always going to be possible that a particular store (including a particular major retailer) isn't available at their local sub-regional or regional centre. Ensuring they can get to at least one shopping centre with a wide range of shops however should cover most of their needs though.

For another example, some residents in Warrandyte would prefer to shop at Doncaster Shoppingtown rather than Eastland (or The Pines). Should we reinstate the 364 to Shoppingtown because they don't want to change between frequent buses at East Doncaster? Similar story with Park Orchards and the old 365. At some point you have to draw the line of what is the best use of limited resources.

An average PT user travelling to the shopping centre may actually work there and won't have a choice of travelling somewhere else. Or they may be making a transfer to another PT service.

I'll accept this point, although most of the potential destinations from Northland are also accessible from an east-west bus route that crosses the 86 (inculding those that depart from La Trobe Uni).

An average PT user won't count how many buses per hour at three seperate intersecting stops on the tram route. Take away a direct service and people will drive if they have the option to. It's as simple as that. People don't want confusion.

I'd have liked to have said there was a bus at least every 12 minutes at any of these locations, but the Dysons & Reservoir routes currently operate at strange headways, and unfortunately a passenger could have a somewhat longer wait than that without retimetabling (which should be done anyway). For now I'd expect a passenger would use the Metlink journey planner to work out which point to change to a bus, unless they wanted to take the safest bet & transfer at Murray Rd.

An average PT user won't bother "changing buses" if they only run every 70 minutes.

Just as many won't bother with 563 running at that frequency on weekends. The other options to Northland all run more frequently on weekends.

An average PT user might be disabled and can't travel on a tram, or might be elderly and doesn't drive and shouldn't be subjected to obscure transfer options and double journey times.

Even if the route was removed today, most of Plenty Rd would still be served by the 566 bus, but there no longer be a direct north-south route duplicating the tram for 10km.

Not to mention, a deviation of the bus route into Mount Cooper won't help anyone who lives along the Plenty Road corridor who wants to go to Northland.

That point was in relation to your suggestion it was one of distinct purposes of the current 563.

Kind Regards


Craig

[krustyklo]

Where do I start...

Maybe the 571 could be the 'East West' Link from Greensborough to South Morang.

The 901 already does that.

Not sure how replacing the 563 will help so much. Some time back there were grumblings that the Plenty Rd section of 563 was too much aligned with the 86 Tram to be viable.

In this case, the 563 follows the high-frequency 86 tram for roughly 10km, minus the small deviation into Mt Cooper estate. 10km a trip which could otherwise be spent to provide a new feeder route in a growth area, or boost one of many hourly routes across Melbourne to half hourly, or run SmartBus routes more often on weekends, etc.

What many people seem to forget about the 563 vs. 86 (apart from RailwayBus who seems to get it) is that the 563 serves many different markets not served by the tram. In fact, it may conceptually make more sense to think of the 563 as serving:

• Trips from north of Bundoora RMIT to somewhere along the tram line (as Craig has done). However, whilst it is easy to suggest people should merely interchange and get over it, during the week it is not too bad southbound (8 mins max, 4 mins ave.) but northbound it sucks (30 mins max., 15 mins ave.).
• Trips from north of Bundoora RMIT to LaTrobe Uni. Yes it's on the tram line, but having gone to LaTrobe and waited at the same bus stop as the 563 users going home, clearly there's a not insignificant number travelling north of the tram terminus (else they'd use the much more frequent tram).
• Trips from north of Bundoora RMIT to Northland. Involves 2 interchanges and wouldn't be worth the effort. As was pointed out there are a number of reasons why people in the local area still use Northland over Greensborough, Epping or South Morang - there are specific shops and services at Northland not at the other three, a job is a job and Northland is not that far away, and using my own situation when I was growing up - there are quite a few connections between the area around Northland and further out and often people will catch up where it is most convenient and that place is often Northland due to the relatively better transport connections from the wider area.

The 563 is not underused for much of the day.

It's relatively easy to get to Northland by transferring off the frequent 86 tram to another bus, especially with some checking with the Metlink journey planner beforehand - on weekdays there is about about 5 buses an hour at Bolderwood Pde (556 & 567), 5 buses an hour at Tyler St (555 & 566) and 7 buses an hour at Murray Rd (527 & 903).

OK, Boldrewood Pde weekday - the 556 runs every 22 minutes, the 567 runs every 22 mins. The combined stop is a fair walk down Albert Rd so I would hardly classify it as convenient to the tram. The services are roughly evenly spaced but hardly clockface / memorable and it's not even an even 22 minutes anyway for the 556 (eg. 12.29p,, 12.49pm). Probably a fail unless the combined stop is moved closer to the tram. The 556 stop northbound is not obviously close, the 567 stop is one more stop up Plenty Rd southbound. 22 minute service at each is hardly going to be attractive.
Tyler St - 555 is every 22 mins, 566 is every 24 mins. There is no combined stop towards Northland so as an interchange point is also a fail.
Murray Rd - used to be Zone 1, I think it now includes Zone 2 but doubt that is widely known given that Tyler St was the change of Zone since 1983. In fact, the original Metlink document for the inclusion of Zone 2 as far as Bell St was unclear if it even included trams so if Zone 2 on the tram ends at Tyler St still, you need to pay an extra Zone 1 fare to continue to Murray Rd anyway - even before you accept it is out of the way. Not going to happen.

Even on weekends 563 only runs every 70 mins (and was only every 90 mins (Saturdays) until 5 years ago), so in even with reduced weekend bus frequencies the transfer is still not completely unattractive to now, given the trams are still running every frequently.

So the answer to dealing with a crap bus service frequency is to get rid of it? Hmmm....

And let's remember that there are large parts of Reservoir (along 552, 553, 558, 561) where you have to change buses to reach Northland, its not unreasonable to ask those in Mill Park or Bundoora to do the same.

With respect, how is this relevant?
Firstly, where do they want to go? What is the penalty for interchange? Given the direct route doesn't exist, how do you know that people wouldn't want to go from those areas to Northland if the ridiculous non-memorable frequencies and poor interchange at Reservoir station or elsewhere were overcome by improved frequencies and/or better interchange connections and / or direct services?
Secondly, until interchange improves either by frequency or better timetabling, direct routes are almost the best thing going for PT, much as it pains me to say it. To use my current example, I use the 902 to travel from Bundoora to Doncaster Rd, Doncaster almost every day. If the 902 didn't run, I sure as hell wouldn't interchange at both Greensborough and Shoppingtown - it would take far too long as the existing alternatives don't have harmonised frequencies and I would drive, as I do sometimes now anyway. how many users of the 563 would not use an alternative when the 563 is taken away and they are forced to interchange. Remember we are not talking non-existant passengers here, we are talking existing users used to a direct journey (and not entirely insignificant numbers of them).

Judging from the patronage I've seen in Mt Cooper, I suspect most of the residents who want to use PT walk the 600m or so to Plenty Rd to get a tram, rather than wait for a half-hourly bus that doesn't take them to a railway station anyway (i.e. they have transfer to an 86 anyway to get anywhere). Sometimes there needs to be trade-off of not having a service within 400m (the general Melbourne benchmark), but having access to high quality public transport within 800m. An occasional deviation on 566 into Mt Cooper could settle any concerns though.

At least there's something we agree on! The Mt Cooper deviation was pointless apart from possibly being quicker than the Plenty Rd traffic jam in peak hour. I wouldn't even bother deviating the 566.

Unfortunately, there isn't an unlimited budget for bus services (or public transport), and therefore not everyone can enjoy a one-seat ride everywhere - some people will need to change vehicles at some point to get where they want to go, even for a slightly longer trip. Spending kilometres in one area ultimately reduces the money available for another route or area.

Do you really believe that any of the other local services will get a better service as a result of removing the 563 and 571? I don't.
From rumour here and the Metlink site:

• The 563 and 571 are to be chopped.
• Nothing obvious to replace the 571 apart from existing routes to Plenty Valley and the rail link to South Morang, or 901 Smartbus to Epping Plaza / Northern Hospital / etc. Probably no great loss overall, but the 901 runs every 15 minutes, the 572 runs every 30. In fact, Centenary Drive loses the 571 and 563 to be left with the 572 every 30 minutes.
• The 563 has as yet to be replaced in Apollo Parkways. Presumably the 520 will do this with a loss of directness. Hardly an improvement for the 520, but probably not too disastrous apart from minor loss of coverage in AP and the perception of a longer trip by deviating through AP - probably the bigger risk to be honest. Maybe the reintroduction of a local service may be required or even, radically, a Manningham Mover type arrangement between Apollo Parkways and the 518, but nothing is known yet.
• The section through Plenty and McDonalds Rd is no disaster as the 901 is probably fine and covers all of the places the existing 563 users in this area are likely to want to go to.
• The Mill Park section is more of a problem as deletion of the 563 and 571 will leave only the 572 in this area - and it is hardly a very direct way to connect to the tram!
• The Mayfield Dve to Northland section is supposedly going to be replaced by the 562. Who comes up with these ideas?! So the Whittlesea rail connection will no longer exist replaced by a connection to the tram. Hmmm.... Even the olde schoole 562 connected to Regent Station outside shopping hours, and several trips during the day as well went to both. It also means that most of Mill Park covered by the 563 will no longer have direct or convenient access to LaTrobe Uni (no Craig, not everyone goes to Northland any more than all tram users go to the CBD) or Northland. Do I think the 562, currently running every 45-60 minutes, will get a better service to compensate? Not very likely, but we shall see.

Frankly, I could live with the cuts if I thought other services would be improved. There are many things that could be improved in the northern bus network. But I doubt it. The cuts reek of being cuts done by somebody who has no idea how people in this area travel, and to where, or why. I suspect that a few trinkets may be tossed our way such as later 562 services to MoTC standard to match the existing 563. But overall I suspect we will be worse off than now, especially as we don't have any marginal seats west of Eltham. The proof will be in the pudding...and in the congestion on Plenty Rd.

[krustyklo]

It's always going to be possible that a particular store (including a particular major retailer) isn't available at their local sub-regional or regional centre. Ensuring they can get to at least one shopping centre with a wide range of shops however should cover most of their needs though.

And for the rest they'll drive... although if they need a car to make the occasional trip somewhere they can't get to conveniently by PT then they may as well pay the incremental cost and drive to more places. Win ?

For another example, some residents in Warrandyte would prefer to shop at Doncaster Shoppingtown rather than Eastland (or The Pines). Should we reinstate the 364 to Shoppingtown because they don't want to change between frequent buses at East Doncaster? Similar story with Park Orchards and the old 365. At some point you have to draw the line of what is the best use of limited resources.

How many existing passengers were using those services to get to Shoppingtown and places in the general area? If not many, then agreed - use the resources elsewhere, especially if interchange IS convenient AND frequent. The 563 during the week is not all that empty though. And the alternatives as posted above are not frequent, nor convenient for interchange. They could be made so, but we are talking 22 April here.

For now I'd expect a passenger would use the Metlink journey planner to work out which point to change to a bus, unless they wanted to take the safest bet & transfer at Murray Rd.

I recall the last time I suggested people should pre plan a journey and got howled down between the 'lots of people don't have access to technology' argument and the 'people should just be able to TUAG' argument. How does that fit here?
And I answered Murray Rd above - the tram zone boundary (which can be changed but isn't before 22 April) imposes a large penalty and Murray Rd is out of the way for that journey.

Even if the route was removed today, most of Plenty Rd would still be served by the 566 bus, but there no longer be a direct north-south route duplicating the tram for 10km.

No, it wouldn't. The 566 diverts via Kingsbury imposing a time penalty and not covering sections of Plenty Rd in East Reservoir. And if you are claiming that the route north of Grimshaw St to Northland is covered by the 566 is covered then I politely suggest that noone in their right mind would catch a bus from there to Northland via Greensborough and Watsonia. It would be quicker to get off at Grimshaw St and walk to Northland...

Just as many won't bother with 563 running at that frequency on weekends.

Yep. So lets cull any route with a crap weekend frequency... There wouldn't be many buses in Melbourne on weekends...

[PaxInfo]

At some point you have to draw the line of what is the best use of limited resources.

I think this is key and a point that often gets lost.

ie the concept of opportunity cost.

Retaining routes with substantial overlaps reduces the resources available to put in services likely to increase patronage (eg an increased frequency) or fulfil a social need (improved coverage).

Keeping a route just because it's been there for years is an unsound rationale for planning if there are greater needs with likely higher patronage potential and/or social need. Especially if removing it would deny no one a basic service due to a high quality parallel alternative (although admittedly not to all destinations).

A smaller number of routes means that you can afford to run a higher frequency on each one. Which improves transfers between them. So instead of specifying that you can get a direct bus to a limited number of destinations, with terrible connectivity elsewhere, you can easily get to many more places as connections are better.

Legibility is also better - it's easier for the layperson to remember two direct routes (frequent enough not to need a timetable) than four slower, indirect routes that require a timetable as they're less frequent.

The above is explained well at http://www.humantransit.org/2009/04/why ... -city.html and in the book 'Human Transit'.

That's a trade-off that we've been reluctant to reform routes for fear of upsetting people. But when explained (complete with indicative network maps and service level information) then I think support would grow. Wellington is undergoing a bus review process that we should observe closely as by following the above planning principles they can put nearly 3/4 of the population near a roughly SmartBus level of service (compared to much less now).

OK, so maybe 563-style direct routes to Northland are currently important for the entire northern suburbs, due to that centre's size and popularity. However as the area grows, there will be sufficient catchment population for a Northland-size centre somewhere much further north. Ideally at a rail-served location such as South Morang or Greensborough. But irrespective where it is, the need for direct buses to Northland from suburbs 20km north (when there's an equivalent sized centre within 10km) will likely diminish as the north develops as more services become available locally. The longer we hold off the more are the opportunity costs, and we don't expect even substantial trip generators (eg Melbourne Uni) to have direct services from every suburb.

In the middle-north there is a large number of routes that basically reflect travel patterns of 40 years ago. The Ring Road is a major artificial boundary and more routes ought to cross it to reflect new shopping and employment areas, not to mention possible connections to orbital bus routes.

Like trams, buses often terminate in the middle of suburbia, whereas a short extension to the nearest SmartBus, railway station or shopping centre would double their usefulness and multiply the number of destinations easily reachable. Eg 558 could run to Campbellfield and 552 at least to the SmartBus 902, Keon Park or Thomastown. 566 is an overlapping mess reminiscent of the former and happily fixed 627. Oriel Rd could be rationalised, 561 could do with standard public holiday patterns, 513 simplified and 570 strengthened to provide a finer grain but direct route network to complement the orbitals. South Morang Station to the end of the 86 via Mill Park is another emerging patronage prospect with interchanges and trip generators at either end and along.

Such service improvements and extensions cost money. But they would benefit areas including where there is little or no public transport (eg northern part of Reservoir). While we have such limited coverage in such areas, and indifferent frequencies in others, having other public transport rich area where buses parallel trams is a luxury that I don't think we can afford. That's because their continued existence is preventing the possibility of funding for network improvements that have the potential for better patronage pay-offs or social utility.

[RailwayBus]

Another one that people (in my opinion, wrongly) complain about is 476 & 477 and the 59 tram sharing Keilor Road. Similar case to the 563, except in this case, Essendon station rather than Northland being the popular destination. In this particular scenario, once again, the buses serve totally different purposes to the tram. The main function of the bus is to bring people from areas such as Keilor, Taylors Lakes and Gladstone Park to Essendon station where they change to the train, and as a result these services are very popular. If one was to turf everyone off at Niddrie on to the tram, and then off again at Essendon to get the train, most (if they have the option to) would instead drive.

The key here is being able to recognise the difference between a useful overlap where all routes have their own purpose, and a useless overlap where it really is wasteful. The 563 (along Plenty Road), as well as the 476 477 listed above, fall in the first category. Also, the above examples are all infrequent bus services which run every 20-30 minutes at best. Hardly a duplication for a tram which runs every 4-5 minutes.

If one wants to look at removing buses that uselessly overlap trams, the places they should really be looking are places like Malvern Road and St Kilda Road, where the 216 219 and 220 buses each all operate at high frequency till Midnight, 7 days a week and follow the Malvern Road and St Kilda Road trams, and as a result carry a relatively small number of people in comparison to the tram. Are there some purposes to these routes? Yes. But do they have the patronage to match the superior level of service they get? No. This section of the routes could easily sustain a lower service frequency while still adequately handling passenger numbers. Resources which would now be surplus from this section could boost services on the western halves of those routes which are continually late and badly overcrowded.

One could argue that the "other half" of 563 between South Morang and Greensborough is now mostly redundant due to the smart bus, and same destinations being serviced, and in this case I would agree.

Let's start thinking with common sense people! It's all good to look at a map and see on paper that two routes follow each other, but let's start looking at them more closely and see that in many cases, it's comparing apples with oranges and each have their own merits.

[krustyklo]

Good post RB. I agree that the South Morang to Greensborough bit is no longer performing the function and should have been chopped when the 901 commenced with the 520 diverted via Apollo Parkways, with a minor loss of coverage in that area.

Let's start thinking with common sense people! It's all good to look at a map and see on paper that two routes follow each other, but let's start looking at them more closely and see that in many cases, it's comparing apples with oranges and each have their own merits.

I think you have hit the nail on the head, and I am no less guilty than anyone.

It is of note (and I meant to mention it in my previous post) that part of the basis of the bus reviews was to reduce overlap of routes unless otherwise deemed necessary. Equally notably neither of the two bus reviews which looked at the 563 suggested deleting it. They suggested that the northern terminus should be in the north (Mill Park Lakes I think for both of them), and that the Plenty Rd duplication could be dealt with by diverting it through LaTrobe Uni and loosely along the current 550, a suggestion I agree with. One of the suggestions even suggested continuing it along the 567 and 609 to Hawthorn or Camberwell, an interesting suggestion I could well see the merit of, and provides a significant link across another artificial barrier provided by the Eastern Freeway.
Clearly the consultants paid large sums of money felt that the current patronage and usage of the 563 was adequate to retain it with suitable modification to reduce unnecessary duplication past South Morang.
Equally notably this solution was not followed in the upcoming changes and a solution out of left field is to be applied.

Also of interest in this discussion is that I don't hear many stories of freeways being built only on the basis that other local roads get proportionally cut to justify it...

Ultimately I would suggest we are arguing about whether the 563 is purposeless enough to be served by other routes. As a local resident who sees 563s on a regular basis (but doesn't frequently use it, only occasionally) I would suggest it has some strong local purposes and gets adequate use to justify retention. I think that any argument about using the resources elsewhere is presently a furphy - there is no suggestion that this is what is happening in this case. As I said, the proof is in the pudding / timetable. Currently all I am seeing is route deletions and less frequent services in my local area. You would think that if there was good news about moving the resources freed up that the government / DoT would be screaming it from the rooftops, especially given there would be some significant money saved from not running the 563.

If either Craig or PaxInfo can point me to where my local area will be getting better services as a result of the cuts in services mentioned so far, we might yet all be able to agree. Otherwise, as far as I am concerned they are cuts to local bus services and we may have to respectfully agree to disagree as to whether this is a good thing and return this thread to it's purpose of announcing timetable changes

[RailwayBus]

Otherwise, as far as I am concerned they are cuts to local bus services and we may have to respectfully agree to disagree as to whether this is a good thing and return this thread to it's purpose of announcing timetable changes

Two great posts by yourself. They make a lot of sense. But yeah, getting back on topic is probably a good idea.

[PaxInfo]

If either Craig or PaxInfo can point me to where my local area will be getting better services as a result of the cuts in services mentioned so far, we might yet all be able to agree.

Full details of forthcoming changes may not have come out yet, so it's hard to judge one way or the other until this is known. In evaluating it would also be worth looking at bus / train connectivity (when the South Morang timetable comes out), in case there hae been improvements there.

I think it's important to ascertain the reason for reduced services on a particular route. A better use for the buses, low patronage or congestion?

If it's to free resources for better / more frequent / more direct routes then the changes may be for the good and buses become more efficient and there's a patronage / service improvement cycle established. A good example is Route 560 that was deleted when the 902 SmartBus started.

On the other hand if cuts are a response to increasing traffic / increasing congestion / longer route running time then it's not so good. Service frequency may have to be cut since the same number of buses can travel fewer kilometres (eg what has been reported in the papers regarding Route 562). A spiral of patronage decline and service cuts occurs, which can only be reversed by providing effective bus priority on a network of well-planned and legible routes.

So a minor route that parallels a tram or SmartBus may be cut to meet a higher service planning aim (eg a new high frequency corridor or better connections), or a frequency cut can be a pragmatic (though regrettable) response to a road traffic environment hostile to effective bus services. Passengers may initially have mixed views on the former but warm to it if the replacement network is better.

But on the latter passenger opinions may be generally negative if the change was due to congestion. This is due to the absence of compensating service improvements and even possibly reduced frequency. Althoush some may appreciate likely improved reliability, at least until traffic builds up again.

People don't always like change. If something serves them reasonably well it's natural to be apprehensive in case a change means they lose something that works for them. It is very easy for a service change to double the travel time for some trips, which will rightly upset those who made those trips. Both risk and a leap of faith is involved.

If we don't have full information on any future changes or alternative uses of trimmed-back services, then about the best we can do is examine the record for successes and failures.

They've been about even in number. Eg we sensibly deleted Route 560 when the SmartBus 902 started, but, to the amusement of the local horses, we kept the South Morang - Greensborough portion of 563 after 901 commenced, despite the high likelihood of the buses carrying more people if used elsewhere.

Here in Melbourne we don't yet have the consistently integrated train/bus service planning culture they have in (say) Perth, though we may be getting better. Neither is engagement with the public yet as good as it could be, though I hope that something was learned from the bus reviews.

Until both of these are fixed, then wariness of change is a perfectly rational response given the record to date. And on this the burden of proof is on the authorities to demonstrate that service change is for the better and can carry people along for the ride.

[giarc]

Now all that remains is seeing the new timetables relating to this recent sub-discussion to make the relevant assessment about improvements I guess. Seems conspicuous that those with a component of 'all roads lead to South Morang' haven't been updated yet.

[krustyklo]

Now all that remains is seeing the new timetables relating to this recent sub-discussion to make the relevant assessment about improvements I guess. Seems conspicuous that those with a component of 'all roads lead to South Morang' haven't been updated yet.

It is also notable that as at last night the 520 had no indication of any changes unlike the other routes. Presumably with the deletion of the 563 something will need to replace it in Apollo Parkways - and the route 565 is taken...

[Craig]

Some more to add to the list:

Online - 481. 485, 486, 487, 488, 489, 512, 690, 695, 737, 895, 896, 897, 898

Partially online - 510, 699

Still to come - 901

A few more notable observations inculde:

• 896 (Cranbourne East Trainlink) wlll now operate every 20 mins on weekends from 10am to 8pm to meet the increased train service.
• Weekend evening 897 & 898 services no longer operate to/from Lyall Street.
• I have also noted that weekend 892 & 893 weekend depatures from Dandenong are now offset, rather than the exact same time. This means there is effectively now a half hourly weekend service from Dandenong to parts of Hampton Park (& vice versa).
• Route 891, 893 & 894 departures from Hallam Station towards Hampton Park Shopping Centre have also been off-set to provide roughly a 20 min headway. Currently on Saturdays 893 & 894 depart within 5 minutes of each other.

Kind Regards


Craig

[lukey boy]

Still to come - 901

902 aswell?

[Craig]

There is no sign of any change to the 902 timetable on the Metlink website.

Another one to add to the list is Route 565 (Whittlesea - Kinglake). A sensible change to the Saturday timetable sees the morning trip running half-hour earlier (presumably due to the new 562 timetable that is still the come). At the moment, its not possible to reach Greensborough until 11:50am.

Kind Regards


Craig

[Craig]

Two more - 366 & 367

Kind Regards


Craig

[giarc]

Confirmed on the bus I was on today that 571 and 563 will be ceased, and that 562 will re-route via SMG to Northland. Will turn Right from Plenty Rd into Bush Bvd.

Also noted that Westfield stops are to cease operation, to be 'replaced' by the Bus Interchange at SMG. One wonders how those with mobility issues will tackle the most direct route from Westfield to SMG / SMG Bus Interchange which involves negotiating stairs...

[tonyw]

New timetable has appeard on Metlink for 562 and indeed the section between Greensborough and Bundoora RMIT has been deleted. I have spoken to both Dysons and Metlink and no replacement is planned for this section as it is considered that it is covered by the 566 which runs along Grimshaw Street. I accept this and understand that 562 ran along the Ring Road (you don't pick up passengers on the Ring Road) and duplicated the 517 along Diamond Creek Road, however, both the 566 and 562 carry heavy loads from Greensborough in the afternoon peak and I fear there will be overcrowding. Any plans to increase the frequency of 566, at least in the PM peak?