SA Rail Consortium: Update

[Heardy_101]

Hi folks

Quick update.

I am currently in contact with quite a few people at the moment- both on and off this forum. However we still need more numbers, and I am asking for people who are GENUINELY interested in getting into this business- I certainly am and I know there are people out there who are.

Please PM me ASAP if you are interested so we can talk more and discuss the details.

Thankyou.

[UQB709]

Have you decided whether you want to be a lobby group for regional rail services or establish an operating company which will deliver regional passenger rail services? In previous posts I understood you to be weighing up these two options.

[Heardy_101]

Actually it's a bit of both- but for a more direct answer the latter would be it.

I don't want to disclose too much at the moment- but what I can tell you that work is actually well under way. The person who I am currently in contact with will begin to start a process of securing the leases of current disused lines and right of ways in the Mid-North/North Eastern areas and plans to set up shop in Riverton, doing both freight and passenger. The aim would to get this group together as quick as possible to then start the process and have things starting to run by the end of the year or 2013.

Also, to answer a question which may also be raised- this will certainly create employment and career opportunities- short term, long term, part time and full time.

[The Phonj]

I do hope you have a bucket of money to throw at this venture! I do wish you luck, but I can't see it being a money spinner

Seriously, the line to Riverton hasn't seen a passenger train in at least ten years; and I'm not sure the last time a freight train ran there. While the line may be intact (and I offer no guarantees of this being the case either) it would need quite a lot of work in order to bring it to any standard for running passenger trains; at any sort of speed to make the train a practical alternative to road transport. Another thing to consider would be if The Rail Commissioner would want another operator's trains accessing Adelaide Station - considering that they will be curtailing Grange and Tonsley trains shortly to cater for the work proceeding at Adelaide Station. Before you think about Keswick (GSR terminal); there is no longer a Broad Gauge connection into Keswick terminal; and I do believe that some of the dual gauge has been removed. Running the trains to Gawler only (and change there for the Metro service) may be an option; but would not be as attractive as a direct service to the travelling public.

And I wish you even more luck in getting some of the rights-of-way that have been turned into "Rail Trails"

[Heardy_101]

Thank you, Mr Phonj. Unfortunately I am not the one with the swimming pool of money to throw at it, but I am in serious talks with someone who has.

Just to quickly narrow it all down- there are plans to buy the current Riverton Railway Station, which is currently up for sale, as well as securing the leases for the disused and ROWs (which are currently leased to GWA?? (Clarification anyone?)) which I have been told is not a problem and would be a quick transition so to speak. Basically the "head office" would be based at Riverton with other smaller "bases" at other key towns that would be connected. The main plan would be to get freight traffic back ASAP with a focus on grain traffic and then passenger.

The Passenger part is an interesting aspect. You mention that they could terminate at Gawler- this is what is planned as well as a possible takeover of the whole network (don't quote me on this- I am speculating what MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be). There will be daily trains but not to every town every day; for example, on Mondays and Fridays the trains will run Burra - Gawler and vice versa, Tuesdays to Balaklava, Wednesdays all the way to Peterborough and Thursdays to Kapunda and weekends would be alternating services- you get my drift. Track and ROW inspections have been carried out (not by me- but by the people I am in contact with) and behind the scenes work has already begun. It is no longer a case of if but when. The Barossa has not been included for the time being simply because of the uncertainty with the line and whether or not the Stonie keeps running as well as whatever GWA want to do.

There is also plenty of Rollingstock available and ready to use- so that is not an issue either. Don't ask me what there is because I currently don't know although I have been told there a couple of Redhens although I doubt they'll be used as cool as it would be.

Also to clarify a few things- I won't mention names just yet, but they have personally asked me to get a group together so the ball can get rolling. Why on here? There are plenty of people with brains, ideas and experience on here who would be very interested and could benefit from what will happen.

[Busman]

Red Hens?

There's a few trains at Steamranger you might want to get your hands on as well!

Hens would indeed be very cool for enthusiasts but hardly what you need to get paying passengers back, so I think your doubt is well founded. A 21st century business shouldn't be run with 1950's infrastructure and if the planners are already throwing around ideas like that, then you might as well hang up the closed sign now. You'll need state of the art shiny new trains if you hope to get people out of their cars.

And some of the old tracks that are now walking/cycling trails are managed if not owned by the local councils - can't see them giving them up for anything less than buckets of cash.

But good for you that you've found someone willing to part with their money. I'll happily be a paying customer if you get it off the ground.

You should also express interest on the rail forum - I'm sure there must be many enthusiasts there willing to offer advice.

[LowRider]

I think it may be a better and cheaper option to run locomotive hauled passenger trains. To make the most of these, why not run mixed freight and passenger trains? Most V-Line services that are/were locomotive hauled only had around three passenger cars on them. It would be far more inexpensive to make some passenger cars look modern and new than having old diesel Railcars. Perhaps an approach to GSR may be in order to purchase stored/disused passenger cars from Keswick terminal to convert to Broad Gauge and use. Leasing locomotive power from GWA would probably be the best way to haul it as they still have broad gauge locomotives, as well as the ability to gauge convert anything else.

[Heardy_101]

Don't worry- I don't think the Redhens will be doing a Burra run anytime soon or at all

As I said- Rollingstock is already available and ready to use, including Locos and carriages, just need new tracks.

Freight is also going to play a part as well.

I think any Rail Trails (such as the Riesling trail) will be ignored. To be honest we haven't discussed them but that is probably the reason why, although there is no reason why a train track and a trail can't exist at the same time.

[Eagle Eye]

I think any Rail Trails (such as the Riesling trail) will be ignored. To be honest we haven't discussed them but that is probably the reason why, although there is no reason why a train track and a trail can't exist at the same time.

In reality, train lines through these country parts would have to use old alignments, almost exactly really, as the lines are on raised embankments to reduce flood damage, some bridges and level crossings are still in place, some ballast remains, trees would have to be cut down if the line is moved, etc, etc. To use a slightly new alignment, even if only a few metres away, you would have to build the ground up to be above flood levels and build new bridges over creeks and rivers.

If you were to use existing alignments such as the Riesling Trail, in many parts you couldn't have a train line a few metres from the pedestrian/cycling track as the embankment is just too narrow, or there are a lot of trees bordering the corridor, plus for safety reasons the trail and tracks would have to be separated by fences the entire way.

Just something else to think about

[B59 Volvo]

I don't want to disclose too much at the moment- but what I can tell you that work is actually well under way. The person who I am currently in contact with will begin to start a process of securing the leases of current disused lines and right of ways in the Mid-North/North Eastern areas ...

Secure which leases ? All the existing BG track north of Gawler is owned by Genesee @ Wyoming Inc. The land upon which the track sits is owned by the State Government. If you want to assume control of the railway, then GWI are the people to talk to. Mind you, the condition of the track north of Roseworthy is at best in some places fair, and at worst untrafficable. All level crossings have been decommissioned. Several million dollars of finance would be needed to address these issues, remembering somebody else owns the infrastructure, and that isn't even getting started on bureaucratic obstacles such as accreditation for operating passenger services on any line.

The aim would to get this group together as quick as possible to then start the process and have things starting to run by the end of the year or 2013.

By the end of 2013 ? In the absence of a LOL emoticon, I assume you are serious. If you must find a plausible case for rural passenger rail, which would have to be subsidised by the State Government (there's no business lure for the private sector in regional passenger rail), then the Iron Triangle region of Pt Pirie, Pt Augusta, and Whyalla may be achievable, given the combined populations, and existing railway.

As for the BG to Burra and Balaklava, there's nil prospect of the Government being interested. And for good reasons, not the least of which is that those lines pass through what are no more than a collection of villages. People from those places will use the car or bus, and the Gummint are satisfied. They ain't forking out millions to rebuild the railway.

[Heardy_101]

GWA don't own the track. The Govt own the land and tracks and lease it to GWA.

I am serious, because the people I am in contact with have already started to get the ball rolling, I have been asked by them to get more people together so more work can be done, although I grow tired of being the only one actually trying to do something yet getting negative responses (no disrespect; go visit Railpage and you will see what I mean ).

The problem with society is this: whinge and whine about something, claim to know better then as soon as someone comes forward and tries to do something about it all they get is the same whingeing and whining.

Talks have already occurred, not with me but with the people I am involved with and as far as I have been told GWA are more than happy to hand over the leases, they don't obviously don't need or want the lines to be used so why would they have anything to complain about, it would be something they no longer have to care about (not they probably did anyway).

As I said- the ball has already started rolling, not by me but by the people I am getting involved with and it's almost at the go=ahead stage.

As I said, I was asked to get some more people together from both here and dare I say the so-called "real world". Hence why this topic was created.

Sorry to start being snappy and unpleasant and I certainly do not mean any disrespect, but I really do grow tired of tyrekickers. Although I have to admit, this site has been 1000% more useful than Railpage, at lease here I'm getting neutral or positive response.

Once again, if anyone wishes to become part of a venture that could lead to something bigger and better, contact me. NOW.

[tramfan70]

The requirements for the Commonwealth Disability Discrimination Act 1992 are very strict and the rollingstock and passenger infrastructure needed will be a high cost to the consortium. Queensland, NSW and Victoria did not really let their country train systems in populated areas degrade like SA, so the renewal of SA's will be costly to meet the new standards. (The expected expenditure on Talbot station on the Ballarat to Maryborough line in regional Victoria is to be $2.5million, if 20 stations are required to be upgraded in SA there is $50million for starters without ongoing maintains).

Also green groups would be hot onto any environmental impact for protection of fauna travelling corridors on disused track alignments. Just look at the report into the potential re-opening of the Wolseley to Penola railway.

http://www.infrastructure.sa.gov.au/major_projects/wolesley_to_penola_railway_upgrade

I agree the Iron Triangle could be the best starting point but these days goods freight would have priority over passengers on that corridor.

[UQB709]

The Passenger part is an interesting aspect. You mention that they could terminate at Gawler- this is what is planned as well as a possible takeover of the whole network (don't quote me on this- I am speculating what MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be). There will be daily trains but not to every town every day; for example, on Mondays and Fridays the trains will run Burra - Gawler and vice versa, Tuesdays to Balaklava, Wednesdays all the way to Peterborough and Thursdays to Kapunda and weekends would be alternating services- you get my drift. Track and ROW inspections have been carried out (not by me- but by the people I am in contact with) and behind the scenes work has already begun. It is no longer a case of if but when.

When you say "a possible takeover of the whole network" are you referring to the Adelaide suburban passenger service? If so, then how do you propose to do this, or is this just a throw away line?

Have you considered how you are going to make a return on the very significant capital investment required to return lines to a condition fit for operation (and then to upgrade them to operate the kind of fast services you are contemplating)? When you suggest that you may only run to certain destinations on selected days of the week, how do you intend to make a return on this investment? That is similar to buying a brand new Airbus A380 with the intent of flying it Melbourne-Hobart on Tuesdays only. Not many banks would take that seriously if you went knocking on their door for money.

I seriously doubt that anyone who has any idea what they are doing is actively working on this project. Professional expertise for these projects costs big dollars. I suggest you concentrate on developing the case for regional passenger services in SA and prioritising the opportunities to present to government and stakeholders, rather than dreaming of operating a rail network. I love seeing enthusiasm, but when you start whinging whenever people ask hard but quite reasonable questions (none of which you seem to have answered by the way, either here or on RP), your attitude doesn't help your case. If you can't mount a reasonable case here or on RP, then it just isn't going to float in the real world. Remember, there are many idealists who present ideas on these forums, and many people who have the professional knowledge and experience to both comment and constructively criticise - and who see these ideas (and their proponents) come and go.

[Heardy_101]

Firstly, the person who I am dealing with is one person from a group of investors, who have been spending large quantities of their time in the last year or so on this project. This includes but is not limited to, feasibility studies, engineering reports and personal track inspections. Please note that this did not include me since I had only recently come in contact with them. I will not mention names because he wishes to remain anonymous, which I respect and so should all of you, and no it is not me, either.

Secondly, "possible takeover of the whole network" does include (but not limited to) the metro lines. This has been discussed however nothing like that will happen anytime soon. Call it what you want, be it a throwaway line or whatever.

Thirdly, all people seem to think about is that we will be running daily trains to places like Burra and Balaklava, etc. That would be a waste of time and money. Before you even think about saying this whole consortium idea will be a waste of time and money, have a good hard read of what I am trying to say. I am not the one who has been doing all the hard work, I am the one who has been putting up with negative comments simply because I'm actually trying to do something about it while everyone sits on their backsides hiding behind an alias. A mock-up profit/loss statement has been made up (I have not seen this but I expect to when they do another one), and it shows that after 27 months a profit would be made, while within those 27 months break-even would be achieved.

Fourthly, "I seriously doubt that anyone who has any idea what they are doing is actively working on this project" is insulting not only to me personally but to the work I have been doing with these people and the countless hours we have spent on the phone. For the record, the person I am in contact with is currently working on major rail projects in Poland, and also imports railway components to Australia from Poland. Mind you he has told me he reads what everyone says on here and laughs.

Last but not least...I have been answering MOST of your questions. Some I cannot answer because I cannot speak for my contact, I do not and will not claim to. There are things I can tell you and things I can not. Railpage? (or is that FAILpage?) I thought swearing wasn't allowed on here, they are worse than this site will ever be- at least here there are people who have experience in the industry (such as The Mayor/Stephen Lucas, The Phonj, The Inspector, just to name a few that I know). I am yet to see posts from anyone on Failpage who appears to have showed signs of experience in the industry, bar a few.

[Heardy_101]

I can't help myself here, and I should know better...but here it goes...

**SA PRESS RELEASE IN THREE WEEKS**

That's all I am going to say.

[tramfan70]

Yay - I'll look forward to the 'artists impressions' as per any SA development proposal.

[Heardy_101]

-.-

[UQB709]

I knew I shouldn't have come into this thread, as it is nothing but trouble, but now that I have dipped my toe into it....

Firstly, over on Railpage you have made suggestions about traffic which has attracted commentary from people who have a reasonable level of knowledge, for example over gauges and access to various locations. You on the other hand have dismissed such concerns as something to be dealt with at a later stage. No answers, just stalling, bluff and bluster.

When I start hearing about investors from overseas who will remain nameless but trust us, we have deep pockets and know what we are doing - well I'm sorry, but as someone who deals with business proposals in my line of work I immediately start to wonder who/how/what. You tell us there is a profit/loss statement, yet you haven't seen it, and to be honest I'm not sure that you have the expertise to interrogate it and form an opinion on it (apologies if you do, but I haven't seen any evidence so far that you do).

Blind Freddy can see that there is no money to be made from regional passenger services. If you already think that there is insufficient demand for a daily service to these towns, then how do you intend to make enough money from operating 2, 3 or 4 times a week to those locations, given the significant expenditure required just to get the infrastructure fit for passenger traffic? Do you think that a daily or even more frequent bus service would in those cases provide a more attractive service - and certainly do a lot more for mobility in regional centres? It hardly seems the stuff that good public policy is made of.

So you think that maybe you will one day take over the Adelaide metro services? How do you propose to do that? It will only be under contract to Government - so there are no guarantees as to how the inevitable tender process would play out - which will be the only way the metro lines come under private operation.

I suspect that if someone real is actually seriously looking at regional SA lines, then it is to operate freight traffic along the lines of short haul lines in the US. However you keep talking about passenger services (even 160-200km/hr no less!) - and there is a world of difference between operating a marginal 25km/hr freight line and a competitive passenger service.

Oh - and another thing. Drop the attitude about "Failpage" and the commentary of those who question you. It only calls into question the professionalism of you and any proposal to which you are attached.

[Heardy_101]

I will not drop the attitude about Failpage. Most of them are people hiding behind aliases with nothing better to do. Don't get me wrong, there is the minority on there who do know what they are talking about, and as it turns out I actually know of them off the site anyway, same with on here, and no I will not mention names for the sake of keeping them from being dragged down to a level in which they would find insulting.

First of all, while I intially dismissed the issue, I have since explained how it would all work, and in case you didn't see it, I will explain it here and now.

First of all, most of the lines will initially start off in Broad Gauge. These include but are not limited to, Riverton, Burra, Kapunda, and Hamley Bridge. Don't quote me as they are examples and the odds are that they may not even get connections straight away.

The first SG connection will be from Bowmans - Balaklava. The current arrangement has trucks carting grain from the farms, to the Balaklava silos, then from there to the silos in Bowmans, then from there the train to PA. Talk about double and triple handling. The SG connection would remove this unnecessary excess handling. I have been told that Viterra and GWA are open to the idea.

The above will most likely be the first lines of many to come.

As for the takeover of the metro network- I recall saying not to quote me on that because it is something that is LONG LONG LONG LONG VERY LONG TERM. I am NOT trying to get out of answering the question, either. The person I am in contact with is well aware of the process involved as am I having seen the hoo-ha in Melbourne.

For the record, I can decipher a Profit/Loss statement, apology not needed but I accept it nonetheless. Without going too much off topic I actually did REAL maths in school- Maths Applications, and was probably one of my better subjects. It was based around business and loans/repayments, and part of that was learning how to do various types of Profit & Loss statements.

To be honest, and I will be quite frank, I completely understand the doubt and skepticism that everyone has. But at the same time, maybe you should just say "look, it's a long shot, it would be pushing sh*t up a steep hill and odds are it won't get off the ground, but good luck nevertheless". Instead I'm getting, no wait, I'm not going to bother.

For the record, the overseas investor with whom I am in regular contact with is an Australian man who has been working in Poland on big rail projects there. He owns and leases various rollingstock over here in Australia and also owns shares in some US rail companies. While race has nothing to do with anything, I am assuming you probably thought he was European or even Asian.

People really need to look at the brighter picture- instead of being negative and one sided about it all, they need to realise that I actually stood up and have tried to do something about it all instead of simply posting on here what I would do if giving a bottomless pit of money for the railways. If I hadn't have said "hey look, I want to do this, this and that, get a group together etc" then I would not have come into contact with the people I am dealing with- they monitor these sites often and came across my consortium posts and contacted me.

This is the impression I am getting, from both here and Failpage: People are bitching about what they would do if they were in charge of the PT network. Fine, that's what these sites are here for. They then come up with intelligent ideas about new services and how they would change current ones. Once again, that's why this site exists. Look at what The Mayor/Stephen Lucas has been doing. I even chucked in my two bobs worth. THEN when I finally say "right, I'm going to do something about it for real, whose with me?", everyone all of a sudden goes on the back foot and starts getting on the offensive as if they are jealous that they did not come up with the idea themselves.

My good friend Brian 2009 from Failpage posted this and hit the nail on the head, and since then several offenders have gone suspiciously quiet- perhaps they realise we are right?

"""Gentlemen,
Why!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Don't you all have the guts to praise Heardy_101 for actually being brave enough to post on here firstly, then to be attacked by the wolves at every opportunity, he deserves a medal.
I have also spoken to the gentleman that spoke to Heardy_101
He rang me through the week from Europe and basically talked about all the things that Heardy has mentioned. This gentleman also rang me in January 2011 saying that he wanted to invest either in the Armidale to Wallangarra line or in the SA Mid north lines. Seems he has selected the Mid North of SA.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to invest in this project as it seems to me that these Investors have done a lot of Preliminary work already.

Regarding the comments about foam, maybe it is time to knock it off.

By the way, this gentleman owns his own rollingstock which he leases out.

Regards,

Brian 2009."""

Now I don't want a medal nor do I want one either.

I am not going to deny each and one of you (from both here and Failpage) have been fair in your questions and statements but at the same time you also need to see the brighter picture and maybe show some appreciation maybe some "good luck" statements, because I am actually physically trying to do something about it all, rather than rant rave and whinge.

If you have questions, maybe simple them down a bit as there is a strong chance that I have misinterpreted them (to which I apologise). SMILE, it's a nice day out there!

[Rclasstramcar]

You may want to buy some Admet 2000/2100s as they're gonna be withdrawn due to electrification. What gauge do you plan to use, Heardy_101, as that'll dictate your railcar fleet?

Good luck ,
Ben

[Heardy_101]

Intially Broad, so that would allow the use of the Jumbos.

Bowmans - Balaklava will be the first Standard Gauge connection to the main network (see above)

To cut it all short, eventually one giant passing loop will be built from Bowmans - Gladstone via Balaklava, Brinkworth, etc. This would also allow more Grain movement and Hay transport as well.

Pretty much the whole Mid North network would be rebuilt...and no I don't know the costings.

[Rclasstramcar]

Thanks Heardy_101.

Ben

[Eagle Eye]

I think the main problem here and the cause of the arguments is this is still in an early stage of planning and lots of bits and pieces are being 'leaked' without the facts being known and proper thought given to the delivery of information.

Think of it this way: I see the 'investor' as 'the company' and 'Heardy_101' is a 'company spokesperson' or 'media advisor'. This forum is currently the media platform that is being used to communicate activities, thoughts and happenings. The problem is that the spokesperson is claiming a lot of things, such as there being a profit/loss study but he hasn't seen it. Services include the lines of Riverton, Burra, Kapunda and Hamley Bridge, but don't quote these as they are examples and may not get connected straight away. A lot of claims with no backup. Seems the company has a lot of ideas and Heardy_101 is trying to communicate some of them but maybe isn't fully aware of these and it is not coming across well.

Normally when spokespeople talk about a topic, a media release is put out containing FACTS with EVIDENCE to back this up, which has not been done as yet (mostly). All this 'I have heard this but haven't seen it' or 'haven't fully thought about this yet' is leading to all the doubters and negative comments emerging.

Don't get me wrong, I am fully in support of all rail services, metro and country, and would back any person/group who is seriously getting something going. Heardy_101's and the investor's ideas and proposals sound promising and the most promising I have seen in a long time, however I will remain a little skeptical until I can see some REAL facts, figures and plans from either Heardy_101 or the investor.

Good luck, I look forward to seeing what is to come and in particular the 'press release' in 3 weeks' time!

[Heardy_101]

Eagle Eye

I cannot thank you enough for that. You have summed it up all in one. I appreciate it.

It is a shame that no-one on Railpage has seen it in that light.

Thanks again

[Rclasstramcar]

Good luck . I'm following this with interest as I've considered doing a similar thing.

Cheers,
Ben