Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

[insert_coin]

last time I checked, the 21 and 22 ran beaufort....so where's the diff? 21 via Emebleton, 22 direct all-stops, 26 direct LS (as per current 66).

The 66 has been re-routed via Beaufort and is still heavily patronised - people are en-route to jobs that are generally a little more difficult to grasp than such simple-minded things. People aren't stupid, contrary to the apparent opinion of gov departments such as the Main Rds and Transperth.

Whats the point of renumbering it if it's fine as the 66? The 67 and 68 use Beaufort St too! 23-25 are Claremont numbers. 26 would be just the random number in between.

And besides, I'd only renumber it to a couple of my suggestions if it was to become a Express service. Then it wouldn't really matter what it'd be numbered as it wouldn't need to fit the criteria of numbering on Beaufort St or Walter Rd. Easily add a 8 in front and there we go. Independent Express service.

But 26 wouldn't necessarily be random....considering that 6 was for many a year....the express (250-6, 60-6, 260-6, 354-362-6, 116-166, 70-6 etc) that was the main thrust of that argument....but I do see your point.

Anyway, why is the 66 on the 16-60 timetable STILL? Why not renumber 21-22 to 61-62 and save the 21-22 for the Claremont area? I'd prefer that.

So further to the above - as the 66 is working fine, keep it and have on Beaufort St 61, 62, 66, 67, 68 (re-locate the 21-2).

[insert_coin]

I suspect that if the 40 direct route to the airport WAS reinstated and actually started impacting the airport shuttle and taxi business, the bastards that run Perth Airport would find some way to try and stop it somehow.

Well, that's the current case....they managed to get Transperth to diss it - they simply didn't provide the bay allocations req'd.
Then they fool the public into thinking they're giving them a great service into the city for $15 (not sure of the Freo/Scab fares) - yet a personalised taxi is quicker at $25.
A route 40 would cost how much less? I can tell you from first-hand practical experience as a bus and taxi operator out of the DAP that most people waiting for the (current) 37, but pre-existing 36-40 are not your typical taxi/scv user....and they don't have much luggage and they are generally low-budget or a local worker (of which is becoming more prevalent).

[mkav]

What Service would I like to see not running?

the 205 has been running on empty for almost 2 and a half years.
It was a reinstatement of a portion of the old route 155 and was provided
to transport seniors from Parkwood & Lynwood to the Herald Avenue Senior
Citizens Centre. It was routed thru to Garden City so we oldies could
get to shopping and government services.
There are very few users and the majority are not the intended target market.
The only ones that seems to get a good load are the afternoon services from Garden
City, which pick up school kids. But these kids could use the 179, 509 or 508.
This service is a vote buyer by local pollies but it it not worth the money spent.

[Cat]

Well, the South Eastern 22 timetable (reprinted with the new cover... not sure about the old one) still states that "Route 205 is currently operating
on a trial basis." Awfully long trial given it was introduced in April 2009!

But yeah, it seems to be very political - I think the Lib-Nats did blame the ex-Labor government for deleting the original 155 back when they introduced it (using a media statement).

[insert_coin]

What Service would I like to see not running?

the 205 This service is a vote buyer by local pollies but it it not worth the money spent.

Yep, so true. A few people SCREAM; they want their service even if they only use it twice a month - and screw the LS tax-payer.
Diss it off and deviate a regular service where smartrider shows it may be needed.

[PoweredByCNG]

the 205 This service is a vote buyer by local pollies but it it not worth the money spent.

Yep, so true. A few people SCREAM; they want their service even if they only use it twice a month - and screw the LS tax-payer.
Diss it off and deviate a regular service where smartrider shows it may be needed.[/quote]

But what regular service(s) would you deviate and why?

Route 170 provides a regular service from Rossmoyne north of Leach Hwy to Bull Creek.

Routes 179 and 509 combine to provide a high frequency service from High Rd west of Riley Rd to Bull Creek, and route 508 provides a regular service from High Rd between Vahland Ave and Metcalfe Rd to Bull Creek.

Route 507 provides a high frequency service from Lynwood/Parkwood to Bull Creek.

Bull Creek to Booragoon is well-served by routes 500 and 501.

[insert_coin]

the 205 This service is a vote buyer by local pollies but it it not worth the money spent.

Yep, so true. A few people SCREAM; they want their service even if they only use it twice a month - and screw the LS tax-payer.
Diss it off and deviate a regular service where smartrider shows it may be needed.

But what regular service(s) would you deviate and why?

Route 170 provides a regular service from Rossmoyne north of Leach Hwy to Bull Creek.

Routes 179 and 509 combine to provide a high frequency service from High Rd west of Riley Rd to Bull Creek, and route 508 provides a regular service from High Rd between Vahland Ave and Metcalfe Rd to Bull Creek.

Route 507 provides a high frequency service from Lynwood/Parkwood to Bull Creek.

Bull Creek to Booragoon is well-served by routes 500 and 501.

Well, you answered your own question and encapsulated the whole point, that being....why put the thing on in the first place? In this case = to buy votes, or as is usually the case (my point) a screaming minority got its way.
My post "...Diss it off and deviate a regular service where smartrider shows it may be needed..." is not specific to the the above 205 ONLY, but rather, it generally applies to services operated along the same lines, hence my comment.

As for the deviations or alterations or whatever it was you mentioned....you seem to have an obvious intimate knowledge of this area, which is why I asked you questions relating to these services (508-9) in another thread. I DON'T know the intimacies of the req'd or best PT as suggested (perhaps) by your above ideas. They seem good on paper - you'd know better about this area CNG.

Smartrider technology can provide data that didn't prev exist to such an accurate degree....so it should give the authorities the know-how, I'm sure.

[route171]

In my opinion (from a public transport user point of view), access to west of High Road could be achieved by making the 508 arrive a few minutes earlier than the 509 at the Riverton Leisureplex timed stop (was Riverton Forum on the 155), so passengers can transfer to the 509, for trips to Bull Creek. For trips to Cannington, both 508 and 509 could depart at the same time, but the shorter routed 509 would arrive at the Riverton Leisureplex timed stop earlier than the 508, and passengers could transfer onto the 508 to access Ferndale/Lynwood etc.

I don't see why the 170 couldn't continue straight through to Booragoon Bus Station as it did pre-SSR. Access to Booragoon could achieved by re-timing the 501 or 500 with the 179/508/9 to provide a reasonable transfer.

A timing point on the 205 at Vahland Av/High Rd is unnecessary in my point of view and could be deleted. It is only 4 stops after the Riverton Leisureplex timing stop.


As I was typing this, I re-read PoweredByCNG's post and mine, and realised my post kind of duplicates what he said, but I wanted to show my opinion on the 205.

[Mr OC Benz]

Route 36 - Esplanade Busport to Midland
Service will operate every 30mins during the day, every 20mins during peak and every 60 mins on weekends.

Route 37 - Kings Park to Redcliffe
Service shortened to terminate at Redcliffe Primary School. Service to airport replaced by a more direct and frequent service provided by route 40.

Route 40 - Esplanade Busport to Perth Domestic Terminal
Service modified to serve the Perth Domestic Terminal. Service will travel existing route to Brearley Ave, then Brearley Ave, Dunreath Dr, Fauntleroy Ave to terminate at Perth Airport. Then via MacRobertson Dr, Snook Rd, Ross Dr, Brearley Ave, Great Eastern Hwy to resume normal route. Service will be coordinated with the 36 service along Great Eastern Hwy. Route 40 will operate every 10-20 mins during peak, 20-30mins during the day and every 30mins on weekends. Great Eastern Hwy will have a service every 10mins from the two services on weekdays.

Further to the above, I have also come up with some other possible ideas including introducing two extra routes from the Airport aswell as the Route 40 to the Airport and a route to the International terminal.

Route 130 - Perth Domestic Terminal to Fremantle (Daily*)
From the Domestic Terminal, via Fauntleroy Ave, MacRobertson Dr, Snook Rd, Ross Dr, Brearley Ave, Second St, Stanton Rd, Morrison St then via the existing 284 route to Abernethy Rd then via Wright St, Orrong Rd, Archer St then via Mint St, Albany Hwy, Basinghall St, Berwick St, Hill View Tce, Hayman Rd and into Curtin University Bus Station then via Hayman Rd, Lawson St, Manning Rd, Centenary Av, Leach Hwy into Bull Creek Station, then via Leach Hwy, Riseley St and into Booragoon Bus Station then via Riseley St, Canning Hwy, Queen Victoria St, Adelaide St, Queen St and into Fremantle Station to terminate.

The objective of this route is not only to provide access from the Domestic Terminal to Belmont Forum (Replaces 37 to Airport), Park Centre (East Victoria Park), Curtin University, Bull Creek Interchange, Booragoon Bus Station, provide residents access from Canning Hwy (west) to Booragoon and Fremantle Station but also for local residents in between these main centres. The total duration of the route would be approximately 1h 40m to 1h 50m with Airport>Curtin (40mins), Airport>Bull Creek (70mins), Airport>Booragoon (80mins), Airport>Fremantle (110mins). It would operate every 30mins during peak periods, every hour throughout the day and will operate on Saturdays and Sundays to Bull Creek ONLY. Quicker access to Fremantle from the Airport can be made by catching this 130 route to Bull Creek then transferring to a 501 or 502 to Fremantle.

This service compensates for the loss of the 37 to the Airport.

Route 284 - Belmont Forum to Curtin University (Weekdays Only)
This service will now ONLY operate from Belmont Forum and NOT Redcliffe. The 284 will operate its usual route from Belmont Forum to Curtin University. It will operate hourly on weekdays only. The route 130 is an alternative option which may be used.

Route 346 - Perth Domestic Terminal to Bassendean (Monday to Sunday)
From the Domestic Terminal, via Fauntleroy Ave, MacRobertson Dr, Snook Rd, Ross Dr, Brearley Ave, Great Eastern Hwy, Tonkin Hwy, Guildford Rd then via the existing 55 route to West Rd, then via Lord St, Railway Pde and into Bassendean Station. This route is planned to provide a service from the Airport to Bassendean which geographically is fairly close to the Airport. The route will also serve for extra capacity through Ashfield and Bassendean to provide a combined 30min frequency with the 55 service. Transfers can be made at Bassendean for services to Morley, Beechboro, Perth, Midland and Ellenbrook. This service will operate EXPRESS during peak periods (bypassing Ashfield and Bassendean suburbs) by travelling direct along Tonkin Hwy and Guildford Rd. It will operate every 60 mins during the day via the above mentioned route on Monday to Saturdays. Duration of the route is 30mins via the normal route and 20mins via the express route. On Sundays, the service will operate the express route.

Route 293 - Perth International Terminal to Perth Limited Stops (Daily)
From the International Terminal, via Horrie Miller Dr, Kewdale Rd, Abernethy Rd, Fairbrother St, Belgravia St, Great Eastern Hwy, Causeway, Adelaide Tce, St Georges Tce, William St into the Esplanade Busport. Service will stop at...
-Perth International Airport
-Airport Shopping Area
-Existing 293 stops between Abernethy Rd and Belgravia St (DROP OFF only on GEH to Perth, PICK UP only on GEH from Perth)
-Belmont Forum
-Victoria Park Transfer Station
-Westend Causeway
-All Terrace Stops as required (DROP OFF ONLY to Perth N stop, PICK UP ONLY from Perth F stop)
-Esplanade Busport
Service will operate every 20mins during peak, 30mins off peak, 45mins on weekends.
An additional 298 service operating against peak flow will replace the 293 to Kewdale Abernethy Rd and will terminate there.

So in this case, the following services will go to the Domestic Airport. Route 40 (Direct to Perth), Route 130 (Belmont, Curtin, Bull Creek, Booragoon, Fremantle) and Route 346 (Bassendean with connections to Perth, Morley, Beechboro, Midland and Ellenbrook)

From the International Airport, Route 293 (Direct to Perth via Belmont and GEH)

[insert_coin]

"Will" they?
The only people, mostly, who will catch a bus to the airport (domestic) are workers and backpackers. Don't even think the international would be utilised. I could sit here and criss-cross a million combinations of ideas but having worked the metro area for so long I wouldn't bother - in Perth. The airport have got the market cornered and unless Transperth want to compete with what thy're doing - forget it - it won't be viable.
What is it they do? They run people with purpose-built vehicles (with luggage storage and trailers) to their hotels. They do it at about $15 per head, which is a nice little earner when they use their vans with windows (coasters) and carry up to 22 people a trip with specialised...almost personal service to boot. THIS is where TP needs to compete, and seriously I doubt they will bother.
Interestingly, there's no early morning services to the airport. Between 0400 and 0600, go down and have a look at GEH for yourself. The real world will kick in very quickly.These people converge from every corner of the metro area from Two Rocks to Dawesville and sometimes beyond! The airport isn't a destination - why would anyone in the mainstream of society want to "go there" if not to catch a flight? And while you're at it, go and check out the regional terminals up along Valentine/Bungana.....where it's anarchy at this time of day. I doubt anyone will bother with a Transperth bus to this area, and they know it.
Why is a bus that takes 1hr and 40 minutes needed to Freo....via 2 shopping centres at Garden City and the Park Centre when most people, from REAL WORLD experience, only need to get to Belmont at most while laying over and want the nearest shopping centre? They cab it at that!
The best, yet least unlikely option is rail/light rail IN COMBINATION with local heavily-utilised patronage. As Labor desperately tried to win the last election it touched briefly on exactly what is needed - the aforementioned - rail to DAP/IAP and beyond to some of the poorest serviced areas in the metro area, namely Hi Wycombe-Maida Vale-Kalamunda-Lesmurdie-Forrestfield etc. And people thought the Libs were the only PT dreaming pork-barrelling party.
It's a long term shot, but you could run a rail via Burswood (and I mean into a new hotel/casino dedicated underground station NEAR the entrance) through that corridor via the motels/hotels....and what a shame with the current widening it isn't happening... .to the airport (both terminals) and beyond somehow. It would have to be underground obviously at the airport to get under the runways. But it is very long-term and costly. As for buses to DAP....how many variations and combos have been tried?....the 306 deviations originally, then the first dedicated service...the 338 (later as the 200s, then 37 etc), then the direct 39 in conjunction with the 37, then later the 36 deviations (all week) along with the 37 and re-badged direct 40. (an esteemed member of this board and myself proposed a 206 via the 39-40 back in the early 90s in conjunction with the then 306).... either way it's not practical EXCEPT as a supplementary service to the other GEH services and as glorified turning loop now Redcliffe depot is gone!

Planning should NEVER be done on paper, just as football isn't played on paper.

[Mr OC Benz]

Perth Airport is especially busy during the morning. (between 0600-0800) as the majority of Fly In/Fly Out workers are around at that time. Most of them take a taxi, however there are some (if you live in the right area) who take the 37 service. Most people would use the bus if it was a more convenient service as oppose to taking the taxi.

Don't forget once the Airport redevelopment is complete, Perth Airport will be in the same location, so that brings along the opportunity to review services and improve and eventually, a rail line.

You'd be surprised at how many people would use a public service as oppose to a taxi or Airport shuttle. As I mentioned above, if everything was planned well, timetabled properly and operated efficiently, you'd get the catchment of Fly in/Fly out workers (Make up the majority of Air traffic in the mornings and evenings), Airport staff (Random hours during the day), tourists/backpackers (Various times of the day, more likely to be from International terminal though). At the moment the 37 service doesn't even consider the Airport traffic. The only catchment the 37 gets are those lucky fly in/fly out workers who live in Redcliffe/Belmont or near the 37 service, staff (likewise) and the tourists and general business people who travel into the City.

We lack anything suitable to other cities I've been to or heard about.

[route171]

This is my opinion on Airport services...It would be great to have a regular service to both the International and Domestic terminals..but as insert_coin said, I don't think it will be very well utilised.
Consider this situation. If I (Living in Willetton) wanted to travel to the airport on a bus, my options (currently) would be to either catch a 507 to Bull Creek station, then train to Esplanade Station, walk to the Busport, transfer to a 37/whatever service to the Intl. terminal that may come in the future. Or I could walk to Vahland Ave, take a 99 to Belmont Forum, and transfer to a 37/whatever to the Intl. terminal if a service like that is introduced. Carrying around 10-20kg luggage, and transferring services several times, from bus to train, then to bus (as in the first situation) or transferring in a area like the Belmont/Cloverdale/Redcliffe area is surely something most people would want to avoid.

No wonder the public use taxi/long term carparks.

[jonwil]

I believe that a more direct route to the airport (busport then straight down the terrace, through Victoria Park Transfer Station, then straight down Gt Eastern Highway) would get patronage.

I for one have had to go to the domestic airport quite a few times on a bus for various reasons (usually because I need to go to one of the freight/courier terminals to pick up a package)

Would I use the bus to go to the airport if I was flying out? Yes, most definatly.

BTW, does anyone know if the government/PTA/Transperth pay any money to the airport operators?

[insert_coin]

Perth Airport is especially busy during the morning. (between 0600-0800) as the majority of Fly In/Fly Out workers are around at that time. Most of them take a taxi, however there are some (if you live in the right area) who take the 37 service. Most people would use the bus if it was a more convenient service as oppose to taking the taxi.

Believe it or not it starts around 0130 to the IAP and 0330 to the DAP. I've literally taken thousands (no exaggeration) of passengers from most metro areas to the airport and not one of them would bus it. It costs them too much time..not just money. Think about it; you get up (if catching a cab) at 0300-0330 to get a quick shunt to the airport, and fly out around 5-6 to have to then work a full day in the mines afterward...who wants to get a freakin' bus that will probably triple the inconvenience and time, and why when you're on at least 120k per year?

Don't forget once the Airport redevelopment is complete, Perth Airport will be in the same location, so that brings along the opportunity to review services and improve and eventually, a rail line.

Possibly. It will integrate the intrastate services so you'll have the regional WA terminal all-in-one (excl probably Skywest), but that won't alter the above scenario one bit as far as buses go.

You'd be surprised at how many people would use a public service as oppose to a taxi or Airport shuttle. As I mentioned above, if everything was planned well, timetabled properly and operated efficiently, you'd get the catchment of Fly in/Fly out workers (Make up the majority of Air traffic in the mornings and evenings), Airport staff (Random hours during the day), tourists/backpackers (Various times of the day, more likely to be from International terminal though). At the moment the 37 service doesn't even consider the Airport traffic.

No, I'm not surprised in the least....I see it with my own eyes day and night and have done for over 20 years.
Aside from bay allocations at DAP...why isn't the direct 36/40 still running? The airport with their "Connect" brand are too commercially smart for Transperth to compete. It's disgracefully true!

The only catchment the 37 gets are those lucky fly in/fly out workers who live in Redcliffe/Belmont or near the 37 service, staff (likewise) and the tourists and general business people who travel into the City.

I can't even begin to count how many FIFOs that I have picked up along this route that are not bus aware and don't give a rats....they get paid enough to afford the luxury of a $12 cab ride every 3 weeks. Why lug your stuff onto a bus after waiting in all sorts of inclement weather at 0410am? WON'T HAPPEN.
Staff - yes....they DO use the 37 (and its predecessors) - they really can't afford not to - likewise with the random backpacker crew. The odd early morning service wouldn't go astray here.
But I tell you what you do need to do as a trial (that will prob fail)...build up a culture (duh) and make it blatantly obvious on the relevant timetables, of buses that could extend via GEH direct (early morning) to the DAP. For example, a 102 that extends upon arrival in Perth DIRECT to DAP. Imagine....one service from multiple routes extending to the airport after arriving in the city....102 at 0412, 34 at 0419, 19 at 0428, 354 at 0442 and then enhanced by being placed on a combined TT to further push the point.

We lack anything suitable to other cities I've been to or heard about.

Too thinly spread over too vast a distance. BUT, we like that - it's Perth.

[laptop15]

I'm sorry but I agree with Mr oc benz - great planning! foward them off to tp planning...

[insert_coin]

I'm sorry but I agree with Mr oc benz - great planning! foward them off to tp planning...

No need to be sorry laps....but exactly...what is "great planning". Is it foresight, hindsight, reactive or plain-paper based? Is it done from the bedroom or the field?

[Mr OC Benz]

For your information, I'm not one of those fat arsed people who sit on their backsides all day doing little drawings on paper. I do get around alot and keep an eye on certain things. I've seen how other cities and countries operate so I have a fairly good idea with related matters...

[insert_coin]

For your information, I'm not one of those fat arsed people who sit on their backsides all day doing little drawings on paper. I do get around alot and keep an eye on certain things. I've seen how other cities and countries operate so I have a fairly good idea with related matters...

Yes, you've achieved a lot for a 15 year old.

ps - are you referring to me above with the "fat-arsed" comment?

ok futher to your pm, I'm merely saying I believe it's a good idea to state the reasoning behind why such plans are being mooted. I mean, on paper everything appears great. I find this area fascinating, as stated, as opposed to wholesale change without explanation! Fair? The privates have employed (and imported) some fine expertise.
When I was about 10 or 11 I sent the MTT a list of some plans making myself available to them whenever needed. I still laugh about it.
Anyway, at least you respond...my point is simply this...when you make a plan it would be nice to hear the reasoning AND see the planning behind it. I've asked others on this board that have offered up plans and obviously some take it as an attack on their expertise.
Well, I'm no expert and that's why I ask, and argue and debate and discuss.
TBH I'd rather see a thread where it's not simply "I wanna do this and this will go like this...." etc (which is what these threads turn into) but rather plans backed up with reasoning and argument as to why they're being mooted. Good planning interests me genuinely.
For a good example....the circle route. How good is that? And it is kinda self-explanatory: it links up many unis/shopping centres/hospitals/bus-rail interchanges (even though it's quicker to fly to Melbourne).
Another good example, a newer proposed route 387, which will be a peak contra-flow service between Perth and Warwick giving people direct access to the Balcatta industrial area (these are some of the worst areas serviced by PT in Perth) whilst at the same time/direction serve the Hamersley - Warwick leg in the peak and, simultaneously act as a supplement to the Wanneroo Rd services. That to me (as I've stated elsewhere) is an excellent use of resources and initiative and a good example of professional planning that will likely improve patronage. So pat yourself on the back....whoever came up with that one.

A bad example of planning is Ellenbrook full-stop. What a mess.

[esperanceguy]

Initially when I read Mr OC's bus proposal re: the Airport, I thought it sounded relatively okay... but insert_coin convinced me that taking a 1.5hr+ bus journey as opposed to a quick fling across the suburbs in a taxi, is the way to go! That combined 37/39/40 timetable of a year or so back was a good idea, buses started early and finished late Mon-Sat, and *that* is what's needed, perhaps... (plus early-late running on Sundays too).

[Mr OC Benz]

The above proposal was not considering that passengers would be stupid enough to catch the bus from Booragoon or whereever in that side of town to the Airport! However it would be expected to utilise passengers primarily from the Airport (But other places too) probably as far Bull Creek or perhaps Bentley. The other sections are basically addons I have created which sort of fill in options and gaps for local residents wishing to go somewhere. i.e. Bus from Curtin through to Bull Creek, Booragoon to Freo via Canning Hwy etc...

[laptop15]

^^ exactly his plan has nothing to do with transfering passengers across the metro area, if you read and understood that properly you would see that. Ill say it again - some nice planning there!

[insert_coin]

I'll respond soon chaps......sorry for ignorance...just gotta take time to analyse and reply.

[Mr OC Benz]

Seems like there are some improvements happening to the 37 route from 11 September. It'll now operate every 30mins on Sundays to the Airport with every second service departing from Busport.

[laptop15]

^^ But im still not happy why cant we have more services to the airport not to bel... watever street and sunday services to run later to about 11ish... JEEZ i hate looking at updated timetables and seeing no later services - even these changes to the 35 no late servives!!!

[insert_coin]

^^ But im still not happy why cant we have more services to the airport not to bel... watever street and sunday services to run later to about 11ish... JEEZ i hate looking at updated timetables and seeing no later services - even these changes to the 35 no late servives!!!

Agreed^^^^....and I'm also referring to the 34-5 changes on the Old Mill part of MPR. I think the 34 needs to deviate (evening only) via the Old Mill....it's a long way for a lone female to walk from the Windsor Hotel to the Old Mill area alone at night - and yes, plenty do alight on this section (incl my mother). I think overall the 34-5 is fantastic, but after the 35 stops operating, at night it'll take only 3 mins to deviate the 34 in and out of that section. Otherwise....good job!