Fairness and Bus Lanes

[tonyw]

I know there are a lot of bus drivers on here so I don't want to offend anyone but I really feel this is a valid discussion. I am both a motorist and a frequent bus user so I feel I can understand both sides.

Firstly, as a motorist, we have had many bus lanes imposed on us over recent months with the aim of improving on time running, reducing travel times, giving buses priority and a jump- start at traffic lights. The introduction of the bus lanes reduces the share of the road available to regular motorists and it is mandatory for regular motorists to keep out of the bus lanes.

So, imagaine the frustration when we see bus drivers refusing to use the bus lanes. Not only does the bus continue to disrupt the regular traffic but it also leaves a lane of the road unused, thus reducing the road's capacity even further. Moreover, I'm sure the option does not exist for car drivers to use the bus lane because the bus driver has chosen not to use it. It simply is not fair. If you don't want to use the bus lanes get rid of them and return them to everyone's use.

The example that prompted my post today occured in Boronia Road at the Eastlink traffic lights. A Bus Lane and priority traffic signals are provided so the bus can get a jump start on the other traffic. The Vermont SC school bus did not use the bus lane, leaving it vacant, and instead sat in the left lane. When the lights changed the bus was slow to move off and I missed the green because of it. If the bus had used the bus lane I would have got the green and so would four or five other cars behind me. I have seen this sort of thing happen on Burwood Highway, Manningham Road etc etc.

As a bus user I applaud the introdution of bus lanes and anything else that improves bus services. Buses are the way of the future as we simply must get more cars off the road for environmental reasons, for congestion reasons and more. As I am a regular user I appreciate the difficulties and frustrations of bus drivers and try to be as courteous and considerate as possible to buses when driving around in my car. For example, I always give way to a bus leaving a bus stop and often wave a bus through an intersection where it has been waiting a long time, even if I have right of way.

But I am very frustrated when I see the bus lanes not being used. I urge mandatory use of bus lanes where they are provided in the interests of fairness to all road users.

[dex]

But I am very frustrated when I see the bus lanes not being used. I urge mandatory use of bus lanes where they are provided in the interests of fairness to all road users.

Even if the driver is aware of the sequence and knows it would be quicker to stay in the 'normal' lanes?

Anyway i understand what you are saying,but,as a bus driver it can be frustrating to pull up at red B and be the last one standing at the intersection. Put them on a switch that gives us priority straight away, get us through and return to normal programming. Simple.
If im running early or have more time to kill, i may not use the bus lanes, yes you want to get home, but i have a job to do. Im not going to sit in a bus lane that i know may or may not work. Please dont get started on faulty bus lanes!!!
Dex

[tonyw]

[quote="dex] yes you want to get home, but i have a job to do. Im not going to sit in a bus lane that i know may or may not work. Please dont get started on faulty bus lanes!!!
Dex[/quote]

Well, it goes without saying that the bus lanes have to work properly. I say let's do whatever is necessary to make them work so that you guys WILL use them. As I see it, a bus lane should be no different to a tram track within a fairway.

[Denning-6V71]

You mentioned it was a school bus. I don't think school buses have the authority to use bus lanes. I drive coaches and I'm not allowed to use bus lanes at traffic lights or on the regular roads (Victoria Parade, for instance) because I'm not running to a government set timetable. I'm pretty sure that's the same for school buses. Only public transport buses are allowed to use bus lanes.
Cheers,
John

[venturatiger]

Tonyw, until such time as every Bus lane gets automatic priority at every set of lights , i will use or not use as suits the requirements of my run.

Perhaps these people that set them up should actually get out & ride on a bus so they know what is going on

As for Bus lanes on the 903, half of them are there because there is room to put one , not because those particular spots need one . The places they are badly needed don't get one because it would cost them to much to set up.

Regards Venturatiger

[Connex]

If im running early or have more time to kill, i may not use the bus lanes, yes you want to get home, but i have a job to do. Im not going to sit in a bus lane that i know may or may not work. Please dont get started on faulty bus lanes!!!

Hmm.. Indeed.

From where I stand, which probably isn't solid ground, there isn't a lot of confidence in B lights. The same goes with T lights in regards to trams.

They have the potential to make a service even later than it is should the priority lights fail to activate.

I remember back when the SmartBus pilot program was first introduced to the 888/889, the B light at Caves Grove, Nunawading, to allow buses to cross three lanes of traffic would only activate on a occasional basis. Having not travelled on the 888/889 in a little while, I wouldn't be surprised if it still didn't work.

It's the same with T lights, half the time the circuit doesn't activate and you're left sitting at the lights until the next cycle. It also has to do with the length of the T/B light. On tram 75, most of the intersections along the Vermont South extension allow trams to cross before traffic in an approximately six second window. That's hardly enough time for a B class tram to accelerate and clear the intersection before the T light turns red.

You mentioned it was a school bus. I don't think school buses have the authority to use bus lanes. I drive coaches and I'm not allowed to use bus lanes at traffic lights or on the regular roads (Victoria Parade, for instance) because I'm not running to a government set timetable. I'm pretty sure that's the same for school buses. Only public transport buses are allowed to use bus lanes.

Without doing any background research, if it's a MET school bus, i.e. uses Metcards, it's permitted to use the bus lane. I've seen the occasional Upper Ferntree Gully-bound Ventura school use the bus lanes near EastLink before. Wouldn't have a clue what school it is, but they do use them.

As for Bus lanes on the 903, half of them are there because there is room to put one , not because those particular spots need one . The places they are badly needed don't get one because it would cost them to much to set up.

That or apparently there's not enough space, such as two lane roads. If you did slot in a bus lane on a two lane dual-carriageway, you'd have every Tom, Dick and Harry Motorist crying foul to VicRoads and vying for blood.

[Mercedes]

Alot of bus lanes particularly Stud road are extremlely rough and un even and using them when th enormal running lanes are quiet is stupid. The bus lane at traffic lights at intersections with Eastlink are also narrow and often to squeezy to use.

[Denning-6V71]

Yes, it was the fact that tonyw mentioned 'the Vermont SC school bus' that I thought it's probably a privately owned school bus as opposed to a track bus that carries a lot of school kids.

[Connex]

Alot of bus lanes particularly Stud road are extremlely rough and un even and using them when th enormal running lanes are quiet is stupid. The bus lane at traffic lights at intersections with Eastlink are also narrow and often to squeezy to use.

And not to mention that there are bus lanes on Canterbury Road at EastLink where there are no bus services operating. Although, it may be forward planning in case they re-instate the old 739 Heathmont - Forest Hill bus.

[Trolley Bus Racer]

And not to mention that there are bus lanes on Canterbury Road at EastLink where there are no bus services operating. Although, it may be forward planning in case they re-instate the old 739 Heathmont - Forest Hill bus.

Talk about Fail!!!!

It really does anger me to see a bus lane then to see a bus not using it, ie Stud road before Wellington road (With exception of the 900 who cant obviously use it)

the 2 "jump ahead" Lanes on ballarat road are very useful, yet some drivers out my way need education on how to use these, i have had numerous occasions where the 216 is in the bus lane, and the 456 pulls up beside in the normal car lane, the B light will activate and both will take off.

Ive also seen when my bus is given the B light, a Not in service "Orange" (wont say the name) bus flys thru at 70 in the outside lane! Obviously not safe nor Legal!

[Denning-6V71]

TBR, I caught the 216 back from Sunshine to Deer Park today. Outbound Ballarat Rd, the driver pulled up at the lights in the left lane, not the bus lane. I think though that this was because traffic on Station Rd was already crossing, so it was unlikely he'd be on the loop in time to get the green B.
It is VERY dangerous to drive as the 'orange' bus you've mentioned would be. Not only is that classed as going against a red light, but the other bus may start to pull into that lane and get side-swiped! Not good driving on the orange bus driver's part! (And I know who you're referring to, so I won't mention them either.)
Cheers,
John

[tonyw]

OK, the recurring themes here are:
- unreliability of the B/T lights;
- i will use whatever suits me to do my job (as a bus driver);
- and the school bus issue.

It was a Ventura School Bus so I think it is a met service. Not sure. I actually think ALL buses, whether school, route or charter should be allowed to use the bus lanes. The route services are not frequent enough (except perhaps in Hoddle and Johnston Streets) to be significantly disrupted by other buses. For example, Ventura buses returning empty to Knox depot should be allowed to use the Stud Road bus lanes.

I will use whatever suits me is a selfish and inflamatory attitude. We all have to use the roads. That attitude is not conducive to a co=operative spirit on the roads. So how about I use the bus lane when the bus driver has chosen not to use it. I'll drag him off at the lights and then cut across in front of him becuase I have a job to do, I have to get to my next appointment.

Unreliabilyt of the B/T lights- well FFS MAKE THEM RELIABLE!!!! Would we tolerate unreliable boom gates or signals on the rail system. FFS get it right. If we are gonna have a system GET IT RIGHT!

Finally, someone mentioned that a bus had missed the phase and was the first vehicle on the grid, so it chose to gon the general traffic lane as it has probably been too late in the phase to activate the bus signal. Too bad. Swings and Roundabouts. You will win some and lose some.

Hope I'm not upsetting anyone here; just trying to promote a genuine discussion.

[Member1100]

As a school bus driver, I will try to clarify a couple of issues.

1. You said it was a school bus as far as you could tell. Being from a public school based on your observation, its almost certain that the school bus was infact a Metlink funded school bus. Being Metlink funded, the driver has the right to use the bus lane. Non Metlink school runs and charter buses and coaches as a rule dont have the authority to use bus lanes. But that said, if the driver uses his brain and doesnt hold up any Metlink buses, no harm done really.

2. The school bus I drive is a Metlink funded school bus, and I regularly use Springvale Road, Wellington Road and Stud Road, all of which have bus lanes. However, despite my ability to use a bus lane on any of these roads, I personally tend to minimize my use of them. I tend to only use bus lanes if I am running tight on time. Otherwise i tend not to. I tend to think that more often than not, the route service buses probably need the time savings more than I do, so I tend to keep the bus lane free so that a route service bus can use it if one appears where I am.

3. TonyW Im sure you probably have already gathered this, but from a legal point of view, a bus has every right to use whatever lane suits at the given time. You never know, the bus driver may just have had a valid reason not to use it, or indeed, being a school bus driver, perhaps he was just a bit like me and also minimizing his use of bus lanes. However, look at the brightside. With bus lanes, you get stuck behind the occasional bus who doesnt use it. Without bus lanes, you would certainly be getting stuck behind every bus you come across, simply because the bus has no other option.

[Trolley Bus Racer]

TBR, I caught the 216 back from Sunshine to Deer Park today. Outbound Ballarat Rd, the driver pulled up at the lights in the left lane, not the bus lane. I think though that this was because traffic on Station Rd was already crossing, so it was unlikely he'd be on the loop in time to get the green B.
It is VERY dangerous to drive as the 'orange' bus you've mentioned would be. Not only is that classed as going against a red light, but the other bus may start to pull into that lane and get side-swiped! Not good driving on the orange bus driver's part! (And I know who you're referring to, so I won't mention them either.)
Cheers,
John

Yeah the outbound B Is Tempermental also, the outbound is fairly new and when the bus moves off out of it cars were doing so also.

I think they need a "jump ahead" lane at Robinsons Road outbound, so buses can cross over the lanes safely to acsess the westwood drive right turn lane, it can get rather hairy when a car doesnt allow the bus into the Outside lane, the bus will either Push over until the car gets the message and drops back, or (with that certain orange bus) stay in the middle lane beside the offending car and as the car turns into westwood, the bus would do so also (this case the car swerved and hit the light pole!)

[Connex]

I will use whatever suits me is a selfish and inflamatory attitude. We all have to use the roads. That attitude is not conducive to a co=operative spirit on the roads. So how about I use the bus lane when the bus driver has chosen not to use it. I'll drag him off at the lights and then cut across in front of him becuase I have a job to do, I have to get to my next appointment.

At the end of the day, it will always be the driver's ultimate decision whether or not to use bus lanes. When a bus is running early or on-time in light traffic conditions, it is not necessary for buses to use the lanes.

As I've mentioned before, in another thread:

For example, on weekends, services run early even in normal traffic circumstances so there isn't much need to use bus lanes as it would probably make them ahead of schedule and hence have to sit at the next time point until departure. Also, it's a bit of an overreaction to say that buses should be 'required' to use bus lanes. You would not believe the amount of people that get p***ed off when a bus runs 1 or 2 minutes early than the time printed at the stop, only for that bus to sit for 5 or so minutes at a time point further down the route.

Bus lanes should only be used when necessary. In light conditions, there should be no need for buses to use designated lanes unless they are running late.

Finally, someone mentioned that a bus had missed the phase and was the first vehicle on the grid, so it chose to gon the general traffic lane as it has probably been too late in the phase to activate the bus signal. Too bad. Swings and Roundabouts. You will win some and lose some.

Hence, why buses should only use the bus lanes and B-lights when required.

Forcing buses to use B-lights and bus lanes has the potential to cause more issues than resolving them. If a bus misses the B-light sequence, it would be left sitting there until the next cycle - this can be detrimental should the bus be running late already.

[venturatiger]

Tonyw , have an idea for you , catch a bus then its one less motorist to get stuck behind a bus

cheers Venturatiger

[Apollo]

I agree with Venturatiger.

Tonyw, you sound the like the typical whinging selfish motorist whose whole goal on the road is "beat the bus"
There are so many of your style impatient drivers out there. There are so many motorists out there who cut us off on purpose as they dont want to "get stuck" behind.

What are you going to do about slow trucks? ban then to? I find trucks to be alot slower than buses yet they serve a purpose on the road.

Then what do you do about slow cars. Ban them to. There are plenty of people who i can move off quicker than at lights, then theres people towing caravans, the list goes on.

Get over yourself.

[krustyklo]

Whilst I get the impression the discussion is perhaps more a 'get this off my chest as I missed the light sequence stuck behind a bus that didn't want to wait half an hour for the rest of the light cycles either' type post, here goes:

* B lights are next to useless in many/most places as pointed out. Either make them genuine priority or don't bother wasting my tax payers money on them. I've wasted too much time frustrated as a bus passenger sitting waiting for all the cycles before the B light activates - it is a poor advertisement for bus travel.

* I would agree that many bus lanes are there because the road ISN'T busy and can spare the lane rather than a genuine attempt at bus priority where the existing busy road holds buses up. It's a ribbon cutting exercise more than a genuine attempt.

* I actually agree with tonyw that weekend buses should use the lanes too unless obviously a waste of time. Timetables should really be adjusted to allow for the quicker running times with a bus lane. There seems little point not using them in order to ensure a slower trip to stay on time, seems a little odd to me.

* Having said that tonyw, aren't you missing the point a little? Imagine if that bus full of school kids wasn't there and their mummys and daddys were driving them to school. Bus lane or no bus lane, that would be another 50 cars on the road in front of you, ie on a 3 lane road you'd have another 17 cars in each lane in front of you. How many light cycles do you think that is worth to you? The reality is that even hogging your lane, the bus will carry an order of magnitude more people than the 5 cars who didn't get through the lights. It's easy enough to suggest the bus should use the ineffectual lane and waste 3 minutes of 50 people's time so you can save 3 minutes in your single occupant vehicle and the 3 cars behind you. Even if your car had all 5 seats taken (unusual for Melbourne roads), the bus is still more efficient by an order of magnitude. You're still ahead!

[RailwayBus]

I agree with Venturatiger and Apollo.

This thread is stupid. Why should a bus be forced to use a bus lane?

I always see the route 477 bus taking the regular lanes on Melrose Drive... Why? Because the bus lane is crap and makes you wait unnecessarily.

Remember, a bus might have up to 70 people onboard, it deserves a faster trip than a car, whether that be in a bus lane or in regular lane.

[Trolley Bus Racer]

i will admit though some bus lanes are a godsend!

Anderson road in sunshine is one, My god best thing since sliced bread!

[tonyw]

I TOTALLY agree that buses should have priority because they are carrying up to 70 people, that's why I am a supporter of bus lanes. As I mentioned I use my own car and buses about 50/50 of the time. I PREFER to travel by bus when I can, I can read, watch TV on my iPod etc rather than watch slow moving traffic. Today we (there was more than one of us in the vehicle, and there almost always is) had no choice because we had errands to do that were not possible by bus.

(I'm sorry, I do not know how to use the Quote function properly.)

"This thread is stupid. Why should a bus be forced to use a bus lane?"

Please explain to me how a bus lane is any different to a tram track in a Fairway, other than the fact that there are metal tracks. If the Fairway is sacred to trams why isn't the bus lane sacred to buses? Trams have to use the Fairway, why shouldn't buses use the bus lane? If you guys won't use the bus lane, may I use it? If not , what is it there for?

"Tonyw, you sound the like the typical whinging selfish motorist whose whole goal on the road is "beat the bus"
There are so many of your style impatient drivers out there. There are so many motorists out there who cut us off on purpose as they dont want to "get stuck" behind. "

I'm quite disappointed about this accustaion. As I said, I believe I am very courtoeus and understanding of the need to give priority to buses. In my experience, often the quickest way to get thru traffic is to actually be behind the bus, because everyone else avoids it.

"Tonyw , have an idea for you , catch a bus then its one less motorist to get stuck behind a bus

cheers Venturatiger"

I do, wherever possible. At least three days per week.

Many comments refer to the reliability of the B signals and quality of the tarmac on the bus lanes. Surely these are issues that should be addressed by DoT/VicRoads. Clearly, if they don't provide you guys with proper facilities you won't use them. If that is one of the reasons why you don't use bus lanes, then let's get that fixed!

Cheers ...

[Connex]

This thread is stupid. Why should a bus be forced to use a bus lane?

Please explain to me how a bus lane is any different to a tram track in a Fairway, other than the fact that there are metal tracks. If the Fairway is sacred to trams why isn't the bus lane sacred to buses? Trams have to use the Fairway, why shouldn't buses use the bus lane? If you guys won't use the bus lane, may I use it? If not, what is it there for?

Well, trams have to use the fairway because, well, they can't leave the fairway unless they derail themselves.

In all seriousness though, buses aren't trams. Trams need priority as they can't manoeuvre from lane to lane to avoid traffic, whereas buses can jump from lane to lane. There really is no comparison.

Let's remember, with fairways, should a broken yellow line exist, cars may use the fairway provided they don't delay trams. With bus lanes, cars cannot enter it full stop - unless they're turning into a side street.
The point of bus lanes is so that in times of heavy traffic, buses can use those lanes to pass traffic, like trams do with tram lanes. The only difference is that buses can choose whether or not they can use a bus lane, whereas trams can't.

[Denning-6V71]

Many comments refer to the reliability of the B signals and quality of the tarmac on the bus lanes. Surely these are issues that should be addressed by DoT/VicRoads. Clearly, if they don't provide you guys with proper facilities you won't use them. If that is one of the reasons why you don't use bus lanes, then let's get that fixed!

You make a good point, tonyw. But what's the point of posting on here? You're better off complaining to the DoT or to vicroads about this problem and getting your local MP to lobby for the situation to be improved. Given the shambles that is connex, not to mention our roads system and the poor deal buses already get on the roads, I can't see much being done anytime soon but you could always try.
I know you're not trying to be inflammatory, but suggesting that buses be forced to use silly lights that may make them later still isn't a great idea. If you were on a bus that was 5 or 10 minutes late and the driver knew that to go in the bus lane would make him a few more minutes late due to bad light sequences, which would you prefer? I'm pretty sure you'd prefer he stuck to the normal lanes.
All up, you missed 1 change of lights. Big deal. As a coach driver, I've missed a lot more changes of lights than that, while running late with a group to the airport, because some twat decided to rear-end a car up ahead. It happens, you lose a minute or two. Suck it up, we all have to deal with it.
Regards,
John

[dex]

I always see the route 477 bus taking the regular lanes on Melrose Drive... Why? Because the bus lane is crap and makes you wait unnecessarily.

Yep.

I will use whatever suits me is a selfish and inflamatory attitude. We all have to use the roads. That attitude is not conducive to a co=operative spirit on the roads. So how about I use the bus lane when the bus driver has chosen not to use it. I'll drag him off at the lights and then cut across in front of him becuase I have a job to do, I have to get to my next appointment.

Are you serious? Seflfish??? I know you werent here to upset people,and a fine job you're doing aswell, but im doing my job and looking for the fastest possible way through a set of lights. To speed up the service, to get people places on time. Lots of people, not just selfish me.
This is why i dont pull up at a red B, while the lights are green.......its called forward thinking. Some motoroists do exactly what you've threatened to do, so its dangerous, stupid and most of all, foolish.

Trams have to use the Fairway, why shouldn't buses use the bus lane?

This is an easy one....THEYRE ON RAILS!!! Ever seen a tram swerve to avoid a car?? Hmmmm...funny bout that...

Tonyw , have an idea for you , catch a bus then its one less motorist to get stuck behind a bus

Just not my bus! Please.
Even better, get your bus license, get a job driving buses, use the bus lanes to your hearts content!
If not, do your job and let me do mine.

[tonyw]

Dex, I'm sorry you are interpreting my comments so negatively. It was certainly not my intent. I have learned soemthing from the responses on here. I can't stress any more how much I am a supporter of and user of Buses. Maybe you haven't read my posts properly or that sentiment is getting overshadowed by my other comments which you are taking so defensively.

At least now I understand why you don't use the bus lanes. I just wonder if other motorists have the same understanding.

Anyway ...

Regards,
Tony.