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Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Stu » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:50 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the L20 is reinstated to replace to M52.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby swtt » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:39 am

Stu wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the L20 is reinstated to replace to M52.
Hmm if they're removing letter prefixes because M stands for Metro, T stands Train, the L must stand for Light Rail

I like the 520/520N combo better for consistency. Somewhat fits in with the N route being a slight variation (all stops and/or route extension) of the regular daytime route.

I wonder if the m50 will become 510 within months Much like 410 was discontinued for around 12 months and then popped up again elsewhere

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Re: New bus network arising from SMNW opening

Postby Geo101 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:59 am

Fleet Lists wrote:Nightride as such is a thing of the past. New overnight routes are being integrated into the bus region network. see 333N etc.


This is probably not specific to this thread, but I do think the Nightride service could do with a bit of an overhaul. Or more along the lines of working out what the requirements are, trends, etc, and integrate it into the bus routes into the longer-term.

My reasoning is that a lot more users are now using transit apps to plan their trips, and I think a lot could change, especially in the inner western suburbs.

They could, for example, run routes such as 423/428/412/480/461 24/7 (with "N" variations) to pick up all the T2 inner station locations and express all the existing outer Nightride services past these locations.

Or better still, use the interchange facilities at Strathfield/Lidcombe/Parramatta and run a regular limited stop half hourly train service from the city and start all of the outer western and northern Nightride services from those three locations?

Even with trackwork etc, they could surely fit in a half hourly service to connect?

How often do they close off all of the main/suburban/local tracks at the same time?
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Richard290 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:54 am

swtt wrote:
Stu wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the L20 is reinstated to replace to M52.
Hmm if they're removing letter prefixes because M stands for Metro, T stands Train, the L must stand for Light Rail

I like the 520/520N combo better for consistency. Somewhat fits in with the N route being a slight variation (all stops and/or route extension) of the regular daytime route.

I wonder if the m50 will become 510 within months


Or maybe consolidate the western half of route M50 and the limited trips on current route 508 to/from Drummoyne Avenue into a new route 508 - Moore Park to Drummoyne Oval via Town Hall once the light rail opens - seeing as both are operated by Transit Systems.

swtt wrote: Much like 410 was discontinued for around 12 months and then popped up again elsewhere

The same thing happened when the 550 along Kissing Point Road was withdrawn in favour of increased 545 services on May 6, 2018, but then resurrected on April 28 this year on a different route along Pennant Hills Road to replace the M54.
Living at the north end of the T6 Line, 513 and the confluence of 513, 546, 549, 550, 553, 625 & 630.
Also living a mile from the Oakes Road interchange.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Stu » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:20 pm

swtt wrote:
Stu wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the L20 is reinstated to replace to M52.
Hmm if they're removing letter prefixes because M stands for Metro, T stands Train, the L must stand for Light Rail

I like the 520/520N combo better for consistency. Somewhat fits in with the N route being a slight variation (all stops and/or route extension) of the regular daytime route.

I wonder if the m50 will become 510 within months Much like 410 was discontinued for around 12 months and then popped up again elsewhere

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If the 520 became a limited stops service during the day/evening then that would justify the 520N being used for the all stops overnight service although I don't think that enough reeducation could be provided to change a people's habits or tunderstanding of services.

I think that the M10 & M50 should be combined together as a through route service, this would be more suitable than adding more services to current routes along Parramatta Rd and Victoria Rd respectively that terminate in the City, layover space in the City CBD is at capacity and even running buses not in service into the City to commence a trip (without lay over) has challenges as well. If all of the M50 trips were to be absorbed into route 510 which is from Region 7, this would raise questions about staffing and fleet requirements - one operator world gain more work and one operator would lose work.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby stupid_girl » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:19 pm

Does anyone understand the design of Bella Vista station bus stands? Why are buses making such a large loop? I expect a much better design for newly opened station. :evil:
https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 190728.pdf
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby moa999 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:47 pm

stupid_girl wrote:Does anyone understand the design of Bella Vista station bus stands? Why are buses making such a large loop? I expect a much better design for newly opened station. :evil:
https://transportnsw.info/documents/tim ... 190728.pdf
It's not to scale. Those loops are 50-100m each and a lot of one way roads.
The station is set back from the busway to serve the nearby business park. People had complained on opening day that the station was too far from the bus stops.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Linto63 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:53 pm

Stu wrote:I think that the M10 & M50 should be combined together as a through route service, this would be more suitable than adding more services to current routes along Parramatta Rd and Victoria Rd respectively that terminate in the City, layover space in the City CBD is at capacity and even running buses not in service into the City to commence a trip (without lay over) has challenges as well.
Many 3xx routes will cease to operate into the cbd once the light rail opens, so layover space will be freed up.
Stu wrote:If all of the M50 trips were to be absorbed into route 510 which is from Region 7, this would raise questions about staffing and fleet requirements - one operator world gain more work and one operator would lose work.
There would be provision in TSA's contract for it to both gain and lose routes and the contract value amended accordingly. The network it operates at the end of its 8 year contract may be very different to the one it started with. Given that the abolition of the M10 and M50 was in the list of routes to be changed when the light rail opens that was published long before Region 6 was put to tender, it would have been a factored in change.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby gld59 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:06 pm

Linto63 wrote:There would be provision in TSA's contract for it to both gain and lose routes and the contract value amended accordingly. The network it operates at the end of its 8 year contract may be very different to the one it started with. Given that the abolition of the M10 and M50 was in the list of routes to be changed when the light rail opens that was published long before Region 6 was put to tender, it would have been a factored in change.

It might be a lot easier for all concerned if some work goes the other way too, though - according to the fleet lists STA is so desperate for buses that 3 buses which reach their legal age limit *this month* have just been brought out of retirement.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Linto63 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:10 pm

The long term fleet strategy would have been built on the assumption that the light rail had opened by now and releasing x number of buses for withdrawal. That is hasn't means buses being retained beyond their planned disposal date.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby willoughby 'ductor » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:24 pm

It will be interesting to see whether they have got the balance right with the new Hillsbus timetables. For example, the number of 607X peak hour services from 28 July is way below the total of the current 607X plus 617X, reflecting the shorter route and presuming a major transfer of Rouse Hill and Kellyville passengers to the Metro, yet the number of 602Xs to North Sydney (servicing the same area as the 607X) has not been reduced at all. Weekend daytime services (610X and currently 610) between the CBD to the Baulkham Hills - Castle Hill area have been cut by a third (10 minute frequency to 15) and it is fairly clear that at certain times some of these buses get fully loaded on the current schedule. Hopefully more 14.5m and double-decker buses from Foundry Road will be utilised on these, otherwise there will be problems for people trying to get on in the Baulkham Hills area and the M2 bus stations, who (unlike those at Castle Hill) don't have easy access to the Metro.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Stu » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:18 pm

Linto63 wrote:
Stu wrote:I think that the M10 & M50 should be combined together as a through route service, this would be more suitable than adding more services to current routes along Parramatta Rd and Victoria Rd respectively that terminate in the City, layover space in the City CBD is at capacity and even running buses not in service into the City to commence a trip (without lay over) has challenges as well.
Many 3xx routes will cease to operate into the cbd once the light rail opens, so layover space will be freed up.
Stu wrote:If all of the M50 trips were to be absorbed into route 510 which is from Region 7, this would raise questions about staffing and fleet requirements - one operator world gain more work and one operator would lose work.
There would be provision in TSA's contract for it to both gain and lose routes and the contract value amended accordingly. The network it operates at the end of its 8 year contract may be very different to the one it started with. Given that the abolition of the M10 and M50 was in the list of routes to be changed when the light rail opens that was published long before Region 6 was put to tender, it would have been a factored in change.


Transferring buses is the easy part, what about the reduction of the number of drivers in Region 6 if route M50 was renumbered and to operate out of Region 7? I doubt redundancies would be paid out. Recruitment would be a challenge for STA as STA would not want to have a large stock of drivers building up on pay roll and it would be difficult to hire a group of new drivers and say that your employment commences in 3 x months (wheb hypothetical changes commerce) time as some would not wait and find stable full time work elsewhere.

Also the potential of different driving awards. If original ex STA R6 drivers were able to transfer across to R7 before the end of the year or if no new award has been agreed upon (current award would continue) then that would work. Award complexities may arise if R3 drivers wish to transfer, or if ex STA R6 drivers have their own new award or if all drivers from R6 are on a new award.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Michael Bamborough » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:30 am

swtt wrote:
Stu wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the L20 is reinstated to replace to M52.
Hmm if they're removing letter prefixes because M stands for Metro, T stands Train, the L must stand for Light Rail

I like the 520/520N combo better for consistency. Somewhat fits in with the N route being a slight variation (all stops and/or route extension) of the regular daytime route.

I wonder if the m50 will become 510 within months Much like 410 was discontinued for around 12 months and then popped up again elsewhere

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I agree that m52 could become 520 with the current 520 all-stop service renumbered to 520N.

But More importantly I feel like they should renumber m50 to Route 500 and have it extend to Ryde so its like a merged extension for Route 500. This might mean that this service would be transferred back to STA SO it can use Ryde & Randwick depots to operate the route.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby kypros1992 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:40 am

Shame to see 500 go. It's one of the original Dept of Govt Transport routes, operating since 1961 (and possibly earlier)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-482382200/view
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Linto63 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:23 am

Stu wrote:Transferring buses is the easy part, what about the reduction of the number of drivers in Region 6 if route M50 was renumbered and to operate out of Region 7? I doubt redundancies would be paid out. Recruitment would be a challenge for STA as STA would not want to have a large stock of drivers building up on pay roll and it would be difficult to hire a group of new drivers and say that your employment commences in 3 x months (when hypothetical changes commerce) time as some would not wait and find stable full time work elsewhere.
Even if the remaining western halves of the M10 and M50 were combined and operated by Region 6, TSA would still be facing a net reduction in mileage operated with the two eastern portions abolished, and thus require less drivers. Every timetable change is going to bring about some change in the optimum driver numbers. As it will only require a small reduction in percentage terms to its total workforce, it will be probably able to handle through natural attrition, i.e. not replacing drivers as they resign or retire, or by having more recent recruits on fixed term contracts.

The abolition of the M10 and M50 was known when the region was tendered and presumably TfNSW had at least a high level, if not detailed, plan as to what would happen with the Parramatta and Victoria Road services, so a contingency plan probably was factored in.
Stu wrote:Also the potential of different driving awards. If original ex STA R6 drivers were able to transfer across to R7 before the end of the year or if no new award has been agreed upon (current award would continue) then that would work.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't TSA's guarantee it will retain all existing terms and conditions for 2 years with its workforce? So unless TSA drivers are now on a superior award to the STA one, no reason why Region 6 drivers wouldn't be offered the chance to move to Region 7 with their entitlements remaining intact.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby boronia » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:49 am

kypros1992 wrote:Shame to see 500 go. It's one of the original Dept of Govt Transport routes, operating since 1961 (and possibly earlier)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.obj-482382200/view

It goes back to the 1940s, originally as 400
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby boronia » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:14 am

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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Stu » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:44 am

Linto63 wrote:Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't TSA's guarantee it will retain all existing terms and conditions for 2 years with its workforce? So unless TSA drivers are now on a superior award to the STA one, no reason why Region 6 drivers wouldn't be offered the chance to move to Region 7 with their entitlements remaining intact.


18 month job garantee for ex STA drivers which keep the award and conditions in place with the original eba that was with STA for 6 months. If a new award cannot be agreed upon then the old award continues until a new award can be agreed upon by all parties concerned. New drivers are on the R3 agreement with TWU.

Natural attrition will definitely work if the M10 & M50 were merged. The current terminal arrangements work well.
There would not be much more room at Ryde depot to take on more buses if the amount of M50 services were to R7.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby marcnut1996 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:40 pm

boronia wrote:More details have been released today
https://transportnsw.info/service-adjustments-2019#home-carousel

Looks the same as last week (Saturday).
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby jake_s_258 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:49 pm

Surprised the 476-9 routes didn't get any minor timetable adjustments - these Rockdale routes seem to have been left out and could really use some adjustments. These routes are often running early or late I find.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Stu » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:01 pm

^ Those routes had adjustments in Dec 2018, much like many routes in this round of updates also had updates in Dec 2018, maybe TfNSW did not think that further updates were required.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby boronia » Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:16 pm

I see some Eastgarden terminators are being extended into the Pagewood Green residential estate next door. Too far for the residents to walk? Or compensation to Harry T for not getting his light rail extension?
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby marcnut1996 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:57 pm

Or probably to free up some layover spaces at Eastgardens for other routes?
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby Frosty » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:46 pm

Eastgardens doesn’t have much layover on the lower level can get very congested though can be managed by through routing or have buses set-down return to depot I.e P or going directly to the next termini. Maybe long term solution is build a bus interchange in between Pagewood Green development & Westfield reduce the loop 400/301/307/420 services have to do.

Redfern station Gibbons St stop changes should help doesn’t work too well currently as a combined set-down, pick-up and layover area often buses stick out onto adjoining lanes.
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Re: Sydney Bus changes 28th July 2019

Postby stupid_girl » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:54 pm

Frosty wrote:Eastgardens doesn’t have much layover on the lower level can get very congested though can be managed by through routing or have buses set-down return to depot I.e P or going directly to the next termini. Maybe long term solution is build a bus interchange in between Pagewood Green development & Westfield reduce the loop 400/301/307/420 services have to do.

Redfern station Gibbons St stop changes should help doesn’t work too well currently as a combined set-down, pick-up and layover area often buses stick out onto adjoining lanes.

Did the splitting of 400 into 400 and 420 worsen the congestion at Eastgardens?
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