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New Country Trains

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: New Country Trains

Postby mandonov » Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:15 pm

The REF for the Dubbo Maintenance Facility is out for comment: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/system ... ty-REF.pdf (PDF)

An interesting tidbit is that the Sydenham site will still be used for stabling, upkeep and minor maintenance; similar to the NIF having Eveleigh as a city-side minor facility.

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... ional-rail
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby mandonov » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:32 pm

https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/news-a ... rail-fleet

Contracts signed for $1.26 billion Regional Rail Fleet

14 Feb 2019

The NSW Liberals and Nationals Government today signed a contract with Momentum Trains for the $2.8 billion project to design, build, finance and maintain the new regional rail fleet, along with a new purpose-built maintenance facility in Dubbo to help stimulate regional economies.

Deputy Premier and Minister for Regional NSW John Barilaro, along with the Minister for Transport and Infrastructure Andrew Constance visited Dubbo today to announce the project, which includes capital costs of $1.26 billion for the new fleet, the new maintenance facility in Dubbo, network enabling works and other project delivery costs. The contract also includes maintenance services for the first 15 years.

Mr Barilaro said the Liberals and Nationals Government is delivering on its commitment to build a first-class rail fleet for passengers travelling in regional NSW.

“This is a new era for regional rail in NSW,” Mr Barilaro said.

“This government is following through on its commitment to replace the old rail fleet with a new modern fleet that passengers can use to travel in comfort with all of the facilities expected of modern rail transport.

“This investment will inject billions of new dollars into regional NSW, creating local jobs during the fit out and commissioning of the new fleet and building a new industry in Dubbo to service and maintain that fleet.

“This is one of the most exciting transformations of passenger rail in NSW for decades, improving how people travel in regional NSW and making sure that investment goes straight back into regional economies.

“If it were up to the Labor party, regional NSW would be stuck with 20th century trains that are housed and maintained in Sydney while regional passengers are left behind,” he said.

Some of the new features will include more comfortable, reversible seating, window blinds, charging points for electronic devices and overhead luggage storage similar to what is available on airlines.

They will replace the existing XPT, XPLORER and Endeavour trains, some of which are close to 36 years old and nearing the end of their lifespan.

Mr Constance said the new regional fleet will comprise 117 new carriages to form 10 regional intercity trains, 9 short regional trains and 10 long regional trains.

“For trips on the regional network, we’ll be introducing new economy and premium classes. Economy class will have a two by two seating layout while premium class will feature an increased number of seats, set in a two by one layout,” Mr Constance said.

“Trains for longer regional journeys will also feature buffet cars and will be more comfortable for those who require wheelchair access.

“The trains will be powered by engines which produce fewer emissions than the current fleet, reducing the impacts on air quality.”


Momentum Trains will also maintain the trains for 15 years and will be responsible for designing and building the new fleet maintenance facility in Dubbo, which will be where the final fit out and commissioning of the trains will take place.

“Building the new maintenance facility in Dubbo is a major boost for regional economies. Some 200 jobs will be created during the construction phase, around 60 jobs during train completion works, and around 50 permanent jobs during ongoing operations, including a number of apprenticeships and traineeships,” Mr Constance said.

NSW TrainLink will operate the new regional fleet with the first trains to be progressively introduced from 2023.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby mandonov » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:35 pm

Momentum Trains is led by CAF. Here's their regional train product, Civity: https://www.caf.net/en/productos-servic ... /index.php
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby mandonov » Thu Feb 14, 2019 1:56 pm

From the project page: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... ional-rail



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From the fact sheet:

The new fleet

How will the new fleet be powered?

The trains in the new regional rail fleet are Diesel Electric Multiple Units (DEMUs).
Diesel is used to generate electricity to power the train’s electrical traction system, producing less emissions than the current fleet.
When selecting design options for the fleet, energy performance was a key consideration.

How many trains are in the new fleet?

The new regional fleet will comprise 117 new carriages forming:
• 10 regional intercity trains (30 carriages in 3 car sets)
• 9 short regional trains (27 carriages in 3 car sets)
• 10 long regional trains (60 carriages in 6 car sets).

On-board features

What train classes are available?

For those travelling on short and long regional journeys, the new fleet will feature two classes, premium and economy. On these fleets, approximately 40 per cent of seating will be allocated for premium class.
The intercity trains and economy class on short and long regional trains will have a two-plus-two seating configuration.
The new fleet’s Premium Class offers considerable improvements over the current First Class. The shift from current two plus two to a two plus one seating configuration will allow for significantly wider, more spacious seating.

What other improvements will customers experience on the new fleet?

Regional rail customers will experience a more comfortable journey, with ergonomically-designed seating, improved accessibility and spacious, open-style buffet areas.
Families or those travelling together will have access to bay seating.
Customers will be able to charge their electronic devices from their seats, use stable tray tables to work from laptops and access individual overhead reading lights.
Customers will have access to filtered water, aeroplane- style overhead luggage storage and toilets with baby changing facilities in every carriage.

What safety features are included on the new fleet?

Customer safety is our priority. The new fleet will include safety upgrades such as automatic selective opening doors, which ensure that doors only open when adjacent to the platform, modern CCTV equipment and internal emergency door release.

What accessibility improvements have been made to the new fleet?

The new regional fleet will be designed to be as accessible and inclusive as possible for all our customers.
All trains in the new fleet will have single deck carriages, wider doors than the current fleet, accessible spaces
for customers using mobility aids, priority seats and accessible toilets.
Real-time, internal and external visual displays and announcements will help customers keep track of their journey. Hearing augmentation in all passenger areas will assist customers with hearing impairment. Trains will also feature accessible help points.
At a number of stations across the regional rail network, there is a significant gap between the train and the platform, making it difficult for customers to board and alight the train.
To bridge the gap between the train and the platform, the new fleet will feature a retractable external step which will improve access at the majority of regional stations.
A manual boarding ramp will also be deployed by staff
to enable access for customers who are unable to use the steps.

Operation

Who will operate the new fleet?

Government-owned operator NSW TrainLink will continue to operate regional rail and coach services.

Will the new fleet be faster than the current fleet?

While some time savings may be possible through timetable changes, increasing train speed would require significant infrastructure upgrades to train tracks, stations and platforms.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby mandonov » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:24 pm

How many trains are in the new fleet?

The new regional fleet will comprise 117 new carriages forming:
• 10 regional intercity trains (30 carriages in 3 car sets)
• 9 short regional trains (27 carriages in 3 car sets)
• 10 long regional trains (60 carriages in 6 car sets).


This compares to 111 passenger cars forming:
  • 14 Endeavour (28 carriages in 2 car sets)
  • 8 XPLORER (23 carriages in 2-4 car sets)
  • 9.5 XPT (60 passenger cars in various lengths)
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby J_Busworth » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:10 pm

mandonov wrote:
How many trains are in the new fleet?

The new regional fleet will comprise 117 new carriages forming:
• 10 regional intercity trains (30 carriages in 3 car sets)
• 9 short regional trains (27 carriages in 3 car sets)
• 10 long regional trains (60 carriages in 6 car sets).


This compares to 111 passenger cars forming:
  • 14 Endeavour (28 carriages in 2 car sets)
  • 8 XPLORER (23 carriages in 2-4 car sets)
  • 9.5 XPT (60 passenger cars in various lengths)


So effectively this is a decrease in the number of diesel powered Intercity trains and a slight increase in the number of long distance regional trains. Maybe we could see the impending electrification of the Southern Highlands or South Coast lines to offset the difference. I know, wishful thinking...
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby neilrex » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:38 pm

what is the supposed distinction between "intercity" and "regional" supposed to be, here ?
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby neilrex » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:44 pm

"Supply Voltages: 1,500 VDC, 3,000 VDC, 15 kV AC (16,6 Hz), 25 Kv AC (50 Hz), or combination of them (bi-tension and tri-tension trains)"

Technical datasheet nowhere mentions diesel.

Their blurb at their website says all equipment is mounted on the roof. A roof-mounted diesel motor sounds rather annoying.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:45 pm

neilrex wrote:what is the supposed distinction between "intercity" and "regional" supposed to be, here ?
Intercity is the old CityRail network, i.e. Newcastle - Dungog / Singleton, Sydney - Goulburn and Kiama - Bomaderry.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby J_Busworth » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:13 pm

neilrex wrote:what is the supposed distinction between "intercity" and "regional" supposed to be, here ?


I think the distinction will be that the Intercity trains will be all economy and lack a buffet car whilst the Regional Trains will be two class with the buffet. Essentially the Intercity trains are replacing the Endeavours, the short Regional the Xplorer and the long Regional the XPT
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:15 pm

neilrex wrote:Their blurb at their website says all equipment is mounted on the roof. A roof-mounted diesel motor sounds rather annoying.
Air-conditioning equipment on the roof, the rest will be slung underneath.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Transtopic » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:19 pm

J_Busworth wrote:So effectively this is a decrease in the number of diesel powered Intercity trains and a slight increase in the number of long distance regional trains. Maybe we could see the impending electrification of the Southern Highlands or South Coast lines to offset the difference. I know, wishful thinking...

Interesting thought, considering there's not much room for growth of Regional services based on the number of new carriages.
Last edited by Transtopic on Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:26 pm

mandonov wrote:[This compares to 111 passenger cars forming:
  • 14 Endeavour (28 carriages in 2 car sets)
  • 8 XPLORER (23 carriages in 2-4 car sets)
  • 9.5 XPT (60 passenger cars in various lengths)
There is a fair bit of fat in the XPT fleet though. Outside of school holidays only 7 x 5 and 1 x 4 car set are on the road at any one time, so that's 21 spares. Been 10 years since the XPTs were last overhauled, and reliability issues are beginning to become more of an issue. Will take a fair bit of TLC to get another 5 years out of them.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby boronia » Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:45 pm

No sleeper carriages for the long distance sets?
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Glen » Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:37 pm

boronia wrote:No sleeper carriages for the long distance sets?


Interesting. I recall the Brisbane XPT did not have sleepers initially but they were ordered later, according to Wiki.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:34 pm

Were built when the extra XPT stock was built to extend the Riverina Express to Melbourne. Was part of the backtracking by the Greiner government after it took a bath in an election after pruning the network including removing the last sleeper trains.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby tonyp » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:11 am

I wonder if they gave any consideration to the Pendolino with its tilt technology that enables higher speed on curves and thus higher average speeds. It's the type of train that NSW needs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Pendolino
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby matthewg » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:41 am

neilrex wrote:"Supply Voltages: 1,500 VDC, 3,000 VDC, 15 kV AC (16,6 Hz), 25 Kv AC (50 Hz), or combination of them (bi-tension and tri-tension trains)"

Technical datasheet nowhere mentions diesel.

Their blurb at their website says all equipment is mounted on the roof. A roof-mounted diesel motor sounds rather annoying.


There are multiple types of DMU in Europe (Particularly France) were there is a diesel 'power pack' on the roof. The first french types had a diesel pack stuff under the floor under a raised drivers cab, but later variants went to roof mounted packs to get reduced the height difference through the passenger saloons. They still have raised floors over the bogies, nowhere near as much as they needed when an engine was stuffed under the floor. (Rural France has predominantly low platforms)

NSW has high platforms everywhere, so for us, there IS space under the floor for a lot of equipment. But given the NSW government's preference for 'off the shelf trains,' we will probably get some inappropriate existing European design. You will have to step down from our platforms into the train, the motors will overheat and the air conditioning will struggle.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:48 am

tonyp wrote:I wonder if they gave any consideration to the Pendolino with its tilt technology that enables higher speed on curves and thus higher average speeds. It's the type of train that NSW needs.
Tilt trains can require a fair bit of infrastructure work to accommodate their increased kinematic envelope. To work properly the track needs to be relayed at an angle on curves, and while increasing line speed for tilted trains, can actually reduce it for non-tilt trains. While it would generate some time savings, probably not significant.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby tonyp » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:54 am

Linto63 wrote:Tilt trains can require a fair bit of infrastructure work to accommodate their increased kinematic envelope. To work properly the track needs to be relayed at an angle on curves, and while increasing line speed for tilted trains, can actually reduce it for non-tilt trains. While it would generate some time savings, probably not significant.

My experience of the Pendolino in Europe is that it had produced some very significant time savings in countries where it has been introduced.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:21 am

In Europe a much higher percentage of trains that traverse lines are high speed passengers trains, so the business case to carry out the infrastructure upgrades will be stronger. These services also tend to generate a profit. NSW TrainLink operate a few services a day with a fairly low cost recovery, with much of the traffic being freight.

The West Coast Main Line upgrade in the UK that cost a whopping £9 billion for about 500 kilometres in the early noughties, shaved about 10 - 15% off journey times. The payback was that it rail took a significant market share away from the airlines. A tilt train here might shave an hour or two off the journey to Brisbane or Melbourne, but it's still not going to trouble the airlines.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby matthewg » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:46 am

tonyp wrote:My experience of the Pendolino in Europe is that it had produced some very significant time savings in countries where it has been introduced.


But they had to spend a lot clearing the routes for the tilt body. The UK even fitted transponders to instruct the (active tilt) Pendolino's to not tilt. Tilt is disabled on more route kilometres than there tilt enabled routes.

I visited Bosnia a couple of years ago - the Bosnian railways had 5 - 6 Talgo passive tilt sets that were at that stage nearly 10 years old, just parked up the back of the main railway siding in Sarajevo. They had NEVER been used in regular service. And these had been paid for not donated (like about 1/2 of the Sarajevo tram and trolley bus fleet) by a very poor country.

The reason they were not using them ?, they were foul of the loading gauge in curves - and the Talgo's being passive tilt couldn't just turn the tilt off and run as conventional trains. They had been sold these trains on the basis on time savings on their mountainous routes, but they didn't fit the infrastructure.

Since our visit, they have finished upgrades to the route to Mostar and some of the Talgo sets are now in regular use, but most of the railway still can't take the Talgo coach sets.

Tilt trains are only half the answer - you still can't get away without infrastructure upgrades. Tilt is to make the ride more comfortable, it itself it does not enable higher speeds, the track and curves still have to be suitable for the higher speed in the first place, the tilting does not change the stresses on the bogies or the tracks - that is purely a function of speed.

I remember years ago talking to a driver on a QR electric tilt train. At that time they had no spare sets and an ICE set would regularly get substituted, I asked how the ICE set could keep to the tilt time table. The driver just smiled and said 'we arrive on time'.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:52 am

J_Busworth wrote:So effectively this is a decrease in the number of diesel powered Intercity trains and a slight increase in the number of long distance regional trains. Maybe we could see the impending electrification of the Southern Highlands or South Coast lines to offset the difference. I know, wishful thinking...
For the Southern Highlands line to be electrified Transport For NSW the NSW government and NSW TrainLink would have to negotiate a plan with the ARTC on how much of the line south of the old Glenlee coal line between Macarthur and Menangle Park they want to electrify
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby tonyp » Fri Feb 15, 2019 10:40 am

Linto63 wrote:In Europe a much higher percentage of trains that traverse lines are high speed passengers trains, so the business case to carry out the infrastructure upgrades will be stronger. These services also tend to generate a profit. NSW TrainLink operate a few services a day with a fairly low cost recovery, with much of the traffic being freight.

A number of European countries bought Pendolinos specifically for routes that are like NSW routes - not high speed and not for that many trains a day. This is exactly what the trains are designed for. Examples are all or specific lines in Finland, Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovenia and Spain.
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Re: New Country Trains

Postby Linto63 » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:24 pm

tonyp wrote:I wonder if they gave any consideration to the Pendolino with its tilt technology that enables higher speed on curves and thus higher average speeds.
Alstom didn't make the shortlist, so would appear not. https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/tra ... ances.html
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