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Use of Back Door on Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Merc1107 » Fri Dec 28, 2018 10:02 am

tonyp wrote:From what I could tell from the image, the slow loading is because it's a single-leaf door.
Would a double-leaf door work better (if at all) if there is only one smart-card validator fitted?
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:31 am

Merc1107 wrote:Would a double-leaf door work better (if at all) if there is only one smart-card validator fitted?

That's an unspoken assumption - yes, of course there needs to be a scanner each side and even another one on the other side of the aisle would help more. Double-leaf doors most certainly do increase throughput markedly, that's all been tested. If not two-abreast, even zipper-fashion is better than single file.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby neilrex » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:12 pm

I still find that traffic light time is ten times bigger problem than actual loading/unloading time.

I also notice that in Melbourne, most buses have one validator at the front, which can be on either side, but only one, and you have to waste time looking for it while not tripping over the step.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Fri Dec 28, 2018 5:52 pm

The dwell time often makes the difference between catching a traffic light cycle and missing it.

Melbourne is a bit of a curate's egg. It seems to me that the buses suffer from being the tertiary transport mode and get rather neglected compared to the trains and trams.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Fri Dec 28, 2018 6:02 pm

neilrex wrote:I still find that traffic light time is ten times bigger problem than actual loading/unloading time.


That doesn't diminish the call for ADB at all. If anything it strengthens the reasoning behind it if the tyrants of the roads lobby and the RMS won't budge on much needed traffic light priority measures.
A respected peer support driver told me once that every second counts in keeping to schedule.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:09 pm

Just saw a driver pull up to the stand in front of the stand he was supposed to stop at. So all the passengers ran towards next stand. The driver opened all the doors and all the passengers went probably thought screw it and they all decided to board through the middle and back doors. Except for 2 nuns (well that's how they dressed, must have been hot for them) and a parent with a pram. Everyone else, like a dozen of them, boarded unauthorised through the middle and back doors and the driver didn't say anything.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:25 pm

rogf24 wrote:Just saw a driver pull up to the stand in front of the stand he was supposed to stop at. So all the passengers ran towards next stand. The driver opened all the doors and all the passengers went probably thought screw it and they all decided to board through the middle and back doors. Except for 2 nuns (well that's how they dressed, must have been hot for them) and a parent with a pram. Everyone else, like a dozen of them, boarded unauthorised through the middle and back doors and the driver didn't say anything.

From your description presumably an artic and what operator and route?
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:53 pm

Yes, artic. M10 which is done by TSA.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:03 pm

A 400 pulled up at the upper level of Eastgardens and opened its centre doors and no one was getting off. I waited a couple of seconds to see if the driver would close them again before clambering on and tapping my card and grabbing a seat right away. I could see a guy looking at me from outside, at the corner of my eye as I was doing this and then he and others followed my lead. I I figured the driver must have opened them with this in mind as he didn't shut them until the bus was ready to depart!
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 12:55 pm

Meanwhile in Melbourne, that rule is just regularly flouted at busy stops anyway. Even though it's not actually permitted, drivers seem to be ok with it and sometimes close the front door first at busy stops (shopping centres, busy stations, universities) before closing the centre door since that's where a lot of people just board, and yeah unauthorised oh no.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:11 pm

Melbourne has a completely different mentality to Sydney. People are far more questioning than the obedient sheeple of harbour town.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Sat Mar 16, 2019 1:15 pm

Speaking of boarding via the back door, I meet a Canberra bus planner the other day who worked on designing their bus network (which included all door boarding changes) who has now moved to Sydney and decided to drive buses. He told me the correct response for bus drivers (like himself) if people boarded via the back is to not care after I asked in about what he thought of all door boarding in Sydney.

And then he blamed the unions for not allowing it, not TfNSW.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sat Mar 16, 2019 2:18 pm

rogf24 wrote:
And then he blamed the unions for not allowing it, not TfNSW.

Then we need an explanation as to why TfNSW enforces it so zealously in private bus areas where the TWU is the union, because the TWU doesn't have a problem with it. Perhaps RTBU has TfNSW by the short and curlies. And some wonder why people would want to get rid of STA and all that goes with it.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby neilrex » Sat Mar 16, 2019 5:23 pm

Swift wrote:Melbourne has a completely different mentality to Sydney. People are far more questioning than the obedient sheeple of harbour town.


What a strange claim. There are far more people getting on buses in Melbourne without making any attempt to pay. And not just dodgy teenagers.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sat Mar 16, 2019 6:50 pm

Your point point backs up my claim, if anything, that Melbourne people challenge rules, in this case, fare evasion -something I don't agree with of course.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby matthewg » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:54 am

Swift wrote:Your point point backs up my claim, if anything, that Melbourne people challenge rules, in this case, fare evasion -something I don't agree with of course.

The only 'rule' they challenge is that you have to pay for your ride. And this seems to run back to the great tram strike where the tram union loudly trumpeted to all and sundry that no conductors == mass fare evasion.
Encouraged by the rhetoric about no conductors means no fares collected, the masses took up the offer, but not just on the trams, but over the entire system.

I gather officially buses in Melbourne are front door only boarding, only many drivers don't give a ##@$ as long as you boarding and alighting their bus in a safe manner.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:18 am

matthewg wrote:Encouraged by the rhetoric about no conductors means no fares collected, the masses took up the offer, but not just on the trams, but over the entire system.

It's the socialist ethos in the Peoples Republic of Victoria - expect stuff for free, paid for by other people's money. :roll:
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby boronia » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:27 pm

I wonder if the loss of conductors really contributed much to the increase in fare evasion?

It seems to be the development of lack of respect for "authority" (the conductor/driver/barrier attendent has no legal power to force people to have a ticket, or to take action if they don't) that has evolved. People will ignore a roving conductor just as often as they would a driver. The growth of a welfare dependent population which "knows its rights" is the main catalyst.

Schoolkids travelling on PT don't seem to be encouraged to use their Opal cards, they are often allowed to walk through open gates without tapping. Does this become an ingrained habit when they leave school?

At my local station, I often see dozens of police lined up on the concourse near the gates. I'm not sure what their role is, but they certainly don't react to people walking through open gates, or even jumping over closed gates, without tapping off. I watch them getting on trains, but then standing in the vestibules until they get off a couple of stops later.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:21 pm

An interesting photo - a hybrid rigid bus in I don't know which American city with three doors. It seems that the Americans, whom I'd previously regarded as irredeemably conservative, are moving ahead more open-mindedly than the Australian bus sector:

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Sun Mar 24, 2019 4:52 pm

The DC Circulator rigid buses has had 3 doors for years now.

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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:49 pm

That Hydrogen bus is part of the AC Transit fleet. They have a reasonably sized fleet of Van Hool rigid and artic low floor buses with 3 and 4 doors respectively that have been operating for AC Transit in the San Francisco Bay for the past 15 odd years. Other than that, I don't think there has really been any change of trend in bus designs in the North American market.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:01 pm

tonyp wrote:An interesting photo - a hybrid rigid bus in I don't know which American city with three doors. It seems that the Americans, whom I'd previously regarded as irredeemably conservative, are moving ahead more open-mindedly than the Australian bus sector:

Image

America shows Australia for the backwater it is. LA Metro Buses (2,400 strong fleet) has had Wi-Fi fully rolled out on it's buses since 2015. Boston, San Francisco & New York as well as other U.S cities are employing all door boarding, while Australia still uses shoe boxes with single leaf centre doors only or no second set of doors at all. Adelaide used three doors in the fifties, before filling them in the next decade. Chronically staid practises and attitudes have been rife for decades here and it continues with no sign of abatement.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby tonyp » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:13 pm

There's some change. Selective unsupervised all door boarding is now available in every state and territory except NSW, Tasmania and NT.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby Swift » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:24 pm

tonyp wrote:There's some change. Selective unsupervised all door boarding is now available in every state and territory except NSW, Tasmania and NT.

Far too slow, much like our lousy bus services.
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Re: Use of Back Door on Buses

Postby rogf24 » Sat Jun 01, 2019 10:50 pm

Another story from a non-Sydney bus user. https://www.reddit.com/r/sydney/comment ... in_sydney/

And just to add to that, I've been spending some time in Melbourne recently using the buses.

In one case, I was running to a bus that was running a little early and the bus driver pulled up all the way to stop and opened the centre door and I was able to board through the centre door rather than the front, saved some seconds from having to run all the way to the front. Nice one driver. In another case, at the bus stop, the driver opened the front door only and the back door firmly shut but the 2 girls at the bus stop walked towards the centre door instead and the driver just opened the centre door for them to board.

Two things that would never happen in Sydney.

And then, of course, there's the usual passengers just boarding through the back door after passengers get off and sometimes drivers open both doors at the first stop.
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