• Advertisement

STA Observations - July to December 2018

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Linto63 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:48 pm

Think everybody needs to just step back and take a deep breath. By and large most conversations are civil even when opinions differ. I have noticed on occasions that administrators have sought to rake the heat out of discussions by removing or editing posts that were a bit heated, but as Daniel has said a bit much to expect the admin to be across every post.

That said we should always be respectful. Referring to people as bastards, jobsworths, goons etc is beyond the pale, and if it occurs, should be stamped out and the offending party/parties notified that this isn't on. I'm sure there are some bad eggs in the organisations discussed in this board, as in any organisation, but by and large they are people going about their business, and even if they disagree with something, are not in a position to be able to take things into their hands. So it is quite understandable that offence is taken when these disparaging terms are used.
Linto63
 
Posts: 601
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:44 pm
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 110 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby tonyp » Fri Oct 19, 2018 6:46 pm

rogf24 wrote:
Whatever the administrators and other elites in the transport system do, it doesn't absolve the drivers and unions from putting the barriers up that prevent efficient running of the buses. In case you missed it, tonyp constantly criticises managers and the government too, in addition to drivers and unions. He's not specifically going after drivers themselves, he's going after everyone in the entire system and that includes the drivers.

Also, he's calling marshalls jobsworths here not drivers. Obviously considering that most of the world can pack buses and trams to the brim using all doors without marshalls, he does have a point here.

Actually I don't criticise drivers, who do a difficult job. I am however in favour of isolating drivers in cities from having to have so much direct contact with passengers who can be dangerously unpredictable and sticking to driving and operating doors as on trams and trains.

In addition, perhaps if drivers called themselves drivers rather than "operators" they wouldn't get insulted every time somebody criticises an actual operator, that is the corporate entity running the bus service. :roll:

From decades on the ground as a bus user, I have a great deal of direct experience of not being able to board DGT/UTA/STA/TfNSW buses that clearly have space on board but some official at whatever level has decided that the bus cannot pick up additional passengers. It seems to be a problem unique to NSW government bus operations because I haven't experienced this anywhere else.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7631
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 824 times
Been thanked: 946 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Ray » Fri Oct 19, 2018 10:27 pm

I didn't have an issue with the term used - nothing wrong with a bit of colour or humour!
Go Cats.
User avatar
Ray
 
Posts: 1064
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 7:13 am
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 53 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby gascoyne » Sat Oct 20, 2018 5:39 am

Image

Isn't the whole idea of a tourist bus that passengers can see clearly out the windows?
gascoyne
 
Posts: 77
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 9:10 am
Location: Sydney. Where else?
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 19 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby J_Busworth » Sat Oct 20, 2018 9:58 am

gascoyne wrote:Admin:Please dont imclude picture from previous post in a quote
Isn't the whole idea of a tourist bus that passengers can see clearly out the windows?


Apparently you can "theoretically" see out the windows even with the AOA on the bus. It does cause some obstruction though, alongside becoming opaque in the rain.
https://transportnsw.wordpress.com
Eternally waiting for the Eastern Suburbs rail line to make it to Randwick
J_Busworth
 
Posts: 205
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2017 8:56 am
Location: Sydney's Eastern Suburbs
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 20 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby LongliveSTA » Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:58 pm

gascoyne wrote:Isn't the whole idea of a tourist bus that passengers can see clearly out the windows?


Not when there is an election on the horizon...
LONG LIVE STA, the best bus operator in AUSTRALIA!!
User avatar
LongliveSTA
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:57 pm
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Sun Oct 21, 2018 5:40 am

LongliveSTA wrote:
Not when there is an election on the horizon...

They found a good way for the local state seat to go the way of Wentworth then.
2582 in George Street Haymarket 2005.
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 9889
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 568 times
Been thanked: 457 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby In Transit » Sun Oct 21, 2018 1:44 pm

Surely not just because a number of buses have branding in the form of a wrap? Or do you see other reasons recent service changes in Region 9 are a negative?

Genuinely curious...
In Transit
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:13 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 110 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Sun Oct 21, 2018 2:12 pm

In Transit wrote:Surely not just because a number of buses have branding in the form of a wrap? Or do you see other reasons recent service changes in Region 9 are a negative?

Genuinely curious...

Don't underestimate people's sense of aesthetics, not to mention amenity. Those things are truly hideous looking.
They look like the circus has come to town, rather than an efficient bus service that means business.
2582 in George Street Haymarket 2005.
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 9889
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 568 times
Been thanked: 457 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby neilrex » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:07 pm

The wraps are getting thicker.
neilrex
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby In Transit » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:26 pm

Swift wrote:
In Transit wrote:Surely not just because a number of buses have branding in the form of a wrap? Or do you see other reasons recent service changes in Region 9 are a negative?

Genuinely curious...

Don't underestimate people's sense of aesthetics, not to mention amenity. Those things are truly hideous looking.
They look like the circus has come to town, rather than an efficient bus service that means business.


I'm no great fan of wraps across windows generally either. However, whether someone likes this particular style of livery is purely a matter for personal aesthetics. Personally I think it looks great, and serves its actual purpose - to promote the existence of a high frequency service to those not currently using public transport. PT operators in Australia are generally pretty ordinary at promoting the existence of services that are attractive to those with a choice of transport mode - at least the 333 is having a go at doing that.

Fortunately, notwithstanding your obviously strong aesthetic opinions, most people seem to be just getting on with catching the service, and hopefully appreciating one of the few genuinely all day, all week turn up and go routes in the country. The fact is that the 333 actually is "an efficient service that means business", and the proof is in the pudding.... well, the service.
In Transit
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:13 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 110 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:45 pm

True, the 333 was and presumably is one of the better bus services around, especially with artics carrying the bulk, though no longer exclusively as it used to be.. Another example of sneaky downgrading of a promising concept -so Sydney.
I'll never forget arriving at Museum in 12 minutes from the beginning of Bondi Rd when the service was new and 100% serviced by the then new Euro 3 B12BLEAs, especially allocated to W for this run.
2582 in George Street Haymarket 2005.
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 9889
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 568 times
Been thanked: 457 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby tonyp » Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:51 pm

This is the way it used to be done and should still be done:

Image

What I find amazing is that a lot of effort was put into removing intrusive street advertising to help beautify cities, but this sort of obscenity suddenly becomes OK:

Image

Only widespread public reaction will get the ball rolling it on overcoming it.

That's commercial advertising though. An operator's promotion of their own service could readily use the approach shown in the first photo above without any revenue skin off anybody's nose.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7631
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 824 times
Been thanked: 946 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby In Transit » Sun Oct 21, 2018 4:12 pm

Swift wrote:True, the 333 was and presumably is one of the better bus services around, especially with artics carrying the bulk, though no longer exclusively as it used to be.. Another example of sneaky downgrading of a promising concept -so Sydney.
I'll never forget arriving at Museum in 12 minutes from the beginning of Bondi Rd when the service was new and 100% serviced by the then new Euro 3 B12BLEAs, especially allocated to W for this run.


There's no "sneaky downgrading". In fact, lets call that statement for what it is - 100% wrong. Every 333 is still scheduled to be operated by an artic today, and that translates into a significantly larger number of artics both operating on the corridor and based at Waverley. The trips are however, all scheduled for artics due to demand, not to follow any slavish requirement that every trip has one. An efficient network needs to allocate vehicles types to balance frequency and capacity against service quality and demand - that has been a weak link with many Metrobus routes in the past where artics were used regardless of actual demand on that trip. That's not efficient, nor effective. Fortunately the 333's demand profile enables both frequency and artics to be maintained all day.

Additionally, as has been commented on here often, there are now artics allocated overnight on many of the 333N trips (again, chosen for those trips which require them, which is not every 333N trip). This is a significant improvement on the previous overnight 380 trips, where artics were never allocated. Given artics are currently... lets say unfashionable... this is a good achievement.

You may still see a 333 operated by a rigid very occasionally - this will only be due to breakdown or use of a standby to avoid a trip being dropped. As a daily user of the 333, I've only seen a couple of rigid 333 trips in the last couple of weeks, and its a fair bet they were standbys used to maintain the headway service.
In Transit
 
Posts: 181
Joined: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:13 pm
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 110 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:02 am

J_Busworth wrote:
gascoyne wrote:Admin:Please dont imclude picture from previous post in a quote
Isn't the whole idea of a tourist bus that passengers can see clearly out the windows?


Apparently you can "theoretically" see out the windows even with the AOA on the bus. It does cause some obstruction though, alongside becoming opaque in the rain.


The further away you are from the window, the 'more' you can actually see outside an ad-covered window. If you sit directly next to the window however, then you see some glare/shine, and it hurts your eyes. If it rains, say goodbye to being able to see anything whatsoever outside the window, then its like ducktape covers the window. In my opinion, the Volvo B12BLEA C2R88L was already a bland bus, by covering up all the windows, are they trying to let it compete with STA's Bustech for worst bus in terms of passenger ergonomics? That and the aircon units on the roof that were left red....it looks so cheap and sticks out like a sore thumb.

Unfortunately it pains me to say this. But the buffalo-heads at TfNSW will not budge on this at all unless people take to the streets to rally and it gains serious media coverage / backlash. Thing is, TfNSW knows people hate ad's on bus windows - but until it becomes politically unviable, they will continue to inconvenience customers and line their own pockets with the extra cash.

I recently wrote some feedback to Transport condemning the adwrap on the 333 as excessive and overkill. I also said, on the regular buses, can you explain to me why are the wheelchair foldup seats always excluded from getting ad's on their windows? Surely makes more logical sense to place them there, so people sitting on transverse seats can actually see outside??

here's what I got back:

Thank you for your feedback dated 25/09/2018 regarding advertising on our buses.

Advertising over windows is an accepted format of advertising on buses both throughout Australia and internationally.

In Sydney, all advertising on bus windows is designed to be transparent, allowing a level of visibility out of the windows. We appreciate that in wet weather conditions, visibility can be reduced through windows featuring advertising. This is why high priority areas on the kerbside of the bus (e.g. windows near the front of the bus) are always clear of advertising. This permits customers full visibility through the front windows and towards the kerbside of the bus, so they can locate their stop or keep track of where they are on a particular route.

Advertising film on bus windows has the added benefit of reducing the incidence of graffiti and minimising glare for customers on sunny days.

Kind regards
Scania K280UB CB80 > Volvo B7RLE CB80

Millennium > Waratah
User avatar
Jurassic_Joke
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:08 pm
Location: North Snore
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 105 times
Favourite Vehicle: STA Scania K280UB CC CB80

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Mon Oct 22, 2018 1:28 am

They think by highlighting any tenuous advantages of window film, that makes the glaring disadvantages somehow acceptable. At the end of the day, I'm sure people who actually travel in the things would choose to have unobstructed glazing with their associated drawbacks, and they know it.
That response is yet another well practised spin effort.
2582 in George Street Haymarket 2005.
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 9889
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 568 times
Been thanked: 457 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby tonyp » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:05 am

rogf24 wrote:Obviously considering that most of the world can pack buses and trams to the brim using all doors without marshalls, he does have a point here.

Heard from somebody on Gold Coast yesterday that platform marshalls at a special event with crowds waiting for trams were limiting boarding to little more than a seated load in order to provide space for those boarding further down the line. Nice notion in principal, but these trams have another 220 standing spaces (at 4 ppsm) in addition to the seats! I think marshals are actually an impediment to the efficient operation of a public transport system and limit its capacity. As you say rogf24, most of the world can do it without. I can see this Gold Coast situation happening on CSELR and I'm sure it already happens at Central on IWLR.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7631
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 824 times
Been thanked: 946 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby neilrex » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:38 am

Well, "the designer" is not very competent, then.
neilrex
 
Posts: 310
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:34 pm
Has thanked: 140 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby lunchbox » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:58 am

ADS ON BUS (AND TRAIN!) WINDOWS......

Thanks to tonyp for the glaringly different comparative pix, and thanks to Jurassic Joke for the pathetic TfNSW quote.
Let's use it against them!
Since the opera house roof / horse race fiasco there has been an outpouring of public opposition to advertising in the wrong places. I urge you to forward TfNSW's insulting response to the shadow transport minister, Ms. Jodi McKay, MP (strathfield@parliament.nsw.gov.au) to encourage her to make CLEAR WINDOWS Labor policy in the lead up to the March 2019 election. TfNSW can have its all-over-ads, but NOT ON THE WINDOWS!
Last edited by lunchbox on Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
lunchbox
 
Posts: 1407
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 245 times
Been thanked: 132 times
Favourite Vehicle: Bicycle - no waiting - on time

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby tonyp » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:01 am

lunchbox wrote:ADS ON BUS (AND TRAIN!) WINDOWS......

Thanks to tonyp for the glaringly different comparative pix, and thanks to Jurrasic Joke for the pathetic TfNSW quote.
Let's use it against them!
Since the opera house roof / horse race fiasco there has been an outpouring of public opposition to advertising in the wrong places. I urge you to forward TfNSW's insulting response to the shadow transport minister, Ms. Jodi McKay, MP (Strathfield@nsw.gov.au) to encourage her to make CLEAR WINDOWS Labor policy in the lead up to the March 2019 election. TfNSW can have its all-over-ads, but NOT ON THE WINDOWS!

Send it to the Liberals too because Labor won't get in and you'll be waiting another four years for action!
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7631
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 824 times
Been thanked: 946 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby lunchbox » Mon Oct 22, 2018 9:28 am

^^^^^^^^^good idea tonyp.
Send TfNSW's insulting quote (Jurassic's post) to transport minister Andrew Constance,MP, at his electorate office - bega@parliament.nsw.gov.au
His office can easily forward it to his ministerial office.

Inform the minister that....
1 - "Advertising over windows" is NOT "an accepted format of advertising on buses both throughout Australia and internationally". In civilised cities the WINDOWS are left clear.
2 - Despite TfNSW's bulldust, if you're crammed into the back of the bus, you can't see out the front windows!
3 - "high priority areas on the kerbside of the bus (e.g. windows near the front of the bus) are always clear of advertising" is nonsense. Passengers need to see out BOTH sides!
4 - "Advertising film on bus windows has the added benefit of reducing the incidence of graffiti". Nonsense. Graffiti NEVER disadvantages the passenger by covering the whole pane. Advertising ALWAYS does.
5 - We are well aware that graffiti can easily be removed by replacing the clear plastic film on the inside of the windows. How often is that done?
6 - "minimising glare for customers on sunny days." Nonsense. We are perfectly able to protect ourselves from glare without having that protection imposed upon us by government.

Go for it!

UPDATE.....UPDATE.......UPDATE.....The Minister's Bega office (above) will NOT accept emails for forwarding to his ministerial office.
Last edited by lunchbox on Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
lunchbox
 
Posts: 1407
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 245 times
Been thanked: 132 times
Favourite Vehicle: Bicycle - no waiting - on time

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:09 am

I agree. The part about minimising glare for customers just made me pretty angry. It’s insulting because, it’s like, they’re making decisions for me on how to protect myself from the sun...I’m not 5 years old, TfNSW!

I strongly ended my feedback with, “the adwrap on the 333 is so disgusting and you’ve essentially taken away all choice for commuters to look out the window. I won’t be giving your glorified 333 route patronage/attention you want it to have and opt for the M40 instead for travel between City and Bondi JN via Oxford St, which since recently runs all day long. So that is how strongly I feel about ads on bus windows. They do not belong. Windows were designed so people could look outside of them, just like I might inform you, the Opera House was also designed for a completely different purpose rather than smearing advertising on it. We live in one of the most beautiful cities in the world, not sure if you realise, but I appreciate that fact and don’t approve of having my choice of seeing outside clearly taken away from me.”

None of these points were addressed (typical), might try Constance or McKay
Scania K280UB CB80 > Volvo B7RLE CB80

Millennium > Waratah
User avatar
Jurassic_Joke
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:08 pm
Location: North Snore
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 105 times
Favourite Vehicle: STA Scania K280UB CC CB80

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby tonyp » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:34 am

The Melbourne policy in its current advertising contract is that only 10% of its fleet of 450 trams can be fully-wrapped - that's 45 trams.

Prior to this:

http://www.adnews.com.au/news/anti-adve ... -melbourne
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 7631
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 824 times
Been thanked: 946 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Stu » Mon Oct 22, 2018 11:56 am

The passenger windows are already tinted to reduce glare, how much more glare to TfNSW want to reduce? :roll:
Stu
 
Posts: 3803
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2009 5:37 pm
Has thanked: 125 times
Been thanked: 458 times

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Merc1107 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 12:43 pm

tonyp wrote:I think marshals are actually an impediment to the efficient operation of a public transport system and limit its capacity.
We have a significant number of 'marshals' at Perth Stadium to assist with the egress trips after an event. Without them, I suspect even the fiercest bus drivers yelling "Right the way to the back please!" wouldn't get the buses to capacity. We face a significant 'psychological barrier' (if that is the correct term for it) in that many passengers want, and are used to getting, a seat on public transport even for a comparatively short journey. So they will try to wait for the next service. The marshals are there to pack them on and will hopefully aid in conditioning passengers to full-standing loads on buses.

To add to the discussion on advertising wraps, I've experienced vehicles in Darwin with all-over wraps in monsoonal rain conditions (it gets pretty dark outside when the heavens open up!). Coupled with the high-humidity, and effective air-conditioning causing condensation on the vehicle's exterior, you can't see squat out the windows. Not that you'd see much in that sort of rain anyway!
Merc1107
 
Posts: 376
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:38 pm
Location: Perth
Has thanked: 73 times
Been thanked: 97 times
Favourite Vehicle: High Floor Buses

PreviousNext


  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Sydney / NSW

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests