Trust me, it was filled, front to rear, including the cave at thre back, you often criticise for not being occupied by standees! That is one props I will grant the students over others.tonyp wrote:I just wonder - on the basis of long Sydney experience - whether a bus is actually full if you can see daylight through the back half of the bus, or whether it's just claimed to be full. The standees in that photo look rather spread out.
STA Observations - July to December 2018
- Swift
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Seems somebody has a problem with university students 'highjacking' what they perceive as 'their' service. It is a public service, there are no restrictions on who can board, so they are within their rights. Like most people, they are probably not transport cranks and merely seeking to get to their destination in the way they see as the most efficient.
- boronia
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
The solution is to provide more buses, not restrict who can use them.
The problem has existed for years, but STA/TfNSW is obviously not interested.
At least there will be "room for one more" when the trams start running.
The problem has existed for years, but STA/TfNSW is obviously not interested.
At least there will be "room for one more" when the trams start running.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
@ The Museum of Fire.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
I do hope this will be the light (rail) at the end of the tunnel, but I think it will be the same problem on bogies by bogeys!boronia wrote:
At least there will be "room for one more" when the trams start running.
We all know the best way to deal with those. Get rid of it with a tissue.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Not having a driver beside the front door adjudicating on when the vehicle is "full" will probably help a lot too.boronia wrote:The solution is to provide more buses, not restrict who can use them.
The problem has existed for years, but STA/TfNSW is obviously not interested.
At least there will be "room for one more" when the trams start running.
Trams can take infinite numbers of people on board. The trick is to have enough doors to ensure, not only that they can board quickly, but that they can actually get off again!
CSELR tram: right
IWLR tram: wrong
Single door Blue Whale: very wrong
SIngle door (WTF?!!) artic: very wrong
Toyota Corolla: right, but wouldn't go anywhere due to gridlock
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Wow, that whale could eat a Volgren!
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
I take it the smilie is in good jest Ray(mond)!
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Infinite? In reality 450. https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... light-railtonyp wrote:Trams can take infinite numbers of people on board.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
That depends on the standard of measurement used and which of those standards TfNSW has decided to quote. It might be 4, 6 or 8 ppsm. The point I'm making is that a tram has no restrictions on how many can be loaded on board unlike a bus where ultimately axle load is an issue. A tram can take as many as will fit in. The main issue that puts a damper on it nowadays is backpacks!Linto63 wrote:Infinite? In reality 450. https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... light-railtonyp wrote:Trams can take infinite numbers of people on board.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Maybe they should make one end with no seats so that in quieter times people can go to the clearly signposted end with seating, but it can carry more passengers when needed, a which will be a lot.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
I see the Sussex family caught a tram to the beach in Melbourne today.
Tomorrow they are going to Bondi Beach, wonder if they will catch a Royal 333?
[I spotted a 3-3/3 artic operating an 893 in and a 372 out from Central around 5 pm today].
Tomorrow they are going to Bondi Beach, wonder if they will catch a Royal 333?
[I spotted a 3-3/3 artic operating an 893 in and a 372 out from Central around 5 pm today].
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
@ The Museum of Fire.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
So trams can carry an infinite number of passengers? Of course not, there is a point where there is simply no more room.tonyp wrote:That depends on the standard of measurement used and which of those standards TfNSW has decided to quote. It might be 4, 6 or 8 ppsm. The point I'm making is that a tram has no restrictions on how many can be loaded on board unlike a bus where ultimately axle load is an issue. A tram can take as many as will fit in.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
You've ever been on a train in Tokyo?
There is a defined capacity but a bit of pushing, squeezing and shoving will usually increase it by at least 1.
There is a defined capacity but a bit of pushing, squeezing and shoving will usually increase it by at least 1.
Preserving fire service history
@ The Museum of Fire.
@ The Museum of Fire.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Is hyperbole really worth a debate?
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
That's one of the functions of all those fold-up seats in trams and buses, not only for parking prams and wheelchairs but to increase carrying capacity (via standees) in crush loads.Swift wrote:Maybe they should make one end with no seats so that in quieter times people can go to the clearly signposted end with seating, but it can carry more passengers when needed, a which will be a lot.
A typical 30 metre tram carries about 200-220 passengers at 4 ppsm, about 260-270 at 6 ppsm and 300+ at 8 ppsm. TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram is "full" when it isn't), the tram can fill to 8 ppsm, an absolute crush load, beyond which at some "infinite" point people would cease to be able to breathe! So those CSELR sets with the quoted capacity of 450 (2x225) could conceivably carry 600.
Then of course there's the practical matter of doors because crush loads are a bit pointless if nobody can get on or off in a timely manner. So expecting loading at 6 or 8 ppsm is unrealistic if there's only a door e,g. every 10 metres. During public discussion of the announcement some time ago that the metro trains would be carrying passengers at 4 ppsm (again they could carry more if necessary), TfNSW (accidentally?) disclosed the information that the capacity of Sydney's buses and double deck trains was rated at only about 2.5 ppsm. This is a direct reflection of the poor situation with doors and internal circulation and standee distribution on both types of vehicle. Double deck trains are a bit of a basket case for passenger capacity (unless everybody is only riding end to end on an event journey) but buses, as we know, are capable of much better if designed better.
Which brings me back to the point of whether those 393s are really full to their design loads.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Are there any more new Scania K310UBs being ordered? The to be delivered list is empty.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Theoretically yes but I don't see people who have a seat getting up so that more people can get on. The only way would be what they do in some places which is lock them into the up position during rush hour.tonyp wrote:That's one of the functions of all those fold-up seats in trams and buses, not only for parking prams and wheelchairs but to increase carrying capacity (via standees) in crush loads.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
No seats. It's cheaper, workable in NSW and the trams will inevitably be full all day, every day from day one.
It will be drowning in it's own popularity, so seats are an indulgence in this setting.
It will be drowning in it's own popularity, so seats are an indulgence in this setting.
NSW, the state that embraces mediocrity.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Back on form Tony, more name calling, this time people who are just doing as they are instructed to do are 'jobsworths'.tonyp wrote:TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram...
Last time it was calling bus drivers 'bastards.' http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... start=1125 After much chastisation, a hasty retreat was beaten with a declaraton "I hold drivers and other front-line staff in the highest regard..." Clearly that was bulldust.
Here is a tip, get out of your ivory tower and see what really happens on the ground, instead of throwing s*** at others. I don't know which is worse; your downtalking of people who you clearly feel you are superior to, or the apathetic administrators who sit on their hands and do nothing about it.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Conceivable if this was Beijing, Tokyo or Sao Paulo. Have you ever seen how Sydneysiders behave during severe train disruptions? They don't even try to squeeze on, even if they've been waiting on the platform for an hour. Meanwhile I step around the crowd and squeeze my way in.tonyp wrote:A typical 30 metre tram carries about 200-220 passengers at 4 ppsm, about 260-270 at 6 ppsm and 300+ at 8 ppsm. TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram is "full" when it isn't), the tram can fill to 8 ppsm, an absolute crush load, beyond which at some "infinite" point people would cease to be able to breathe! So those CSELR sets with the quoted capacity of 450 (2x225) could conceivably carry 600.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Whatever the administrators and other elites in the transport system do, it doesn't absolve the drivers and unions from putting the barriers up that prevent efficient running of the buses. In case you missed it, tonyp constantly criticises managers and the government too, in addition to drivers and unions. He's not specifically going after drivers themselves, he's going after everyone in the entire system and that includes the drivers.David10 wrote:Back on form Tony, more name calling, this time people who are just doing as they are instructed to do are 'jobsworths'.
Last time it was calling bus drivers 'bastards.' http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... start=1125 After much chastisation, a hasty retreat was beaten with a declaraton "I hold drivers and other front-line staff in the highest regard..." Clearly that was bulldust.
Here is a tip, get out of your ivory tower and see what really happens on the ground, instead of throwing s*** at others. I don't know which is worse; your downtalking of people who you clearly feel you are superior to, or the apathetic administrators who sit on their hands and do nothing about it.
Also, he's calling marshalls jobsworths here not drivers. Obviously considering that most of the world can pack buses and trams to the brim using all doors without marshalls, he does have a point here.
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
David10 isn't slagging off administrators in the transport system, but the administrators here.rogf24 wrote:Whatever the administrators and other elites in the transport system do
Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Ah apologies. I don't think the administrators do a terrible job. They keep things running pretty well keeping in mind that people have different views on how transport systems should run (which includes the drivers).
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018
Sorry, we aren’t here to babysit users and audit invidual posts. We do the best we can with our free time available.