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Artics on Route 400

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Artics on Route 400

Postby Stonesourscotty » Fri Oct 06, 2017 6:52 pm

Someone at Wynyard station today was mumbling about the 400 getting cascaded artics but downseated with luggage racks installed? Anyone know anything about this?
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby boronia » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:13 pm

There are problems running artics on the 400.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Stu » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:26 pm

Stonesourscotty wrote:Someone at Wynyard station today was mumbling about the 400 getting cascaded artics but downseated with luggage racks installed? Anyone know anything about this?


This rumour has been floating around for a while with brief mention in this forum although as boronia has mentioned, there are problems such as the small hump bridge on the lower level exit to Wentworth Ave and these artics have a single leaf door on the trailer. If the route 400 was redirected to pick up & set down in Banks Ave like it did many years ago, then this would allow artics to operate on the 400 route, as long as the artics were operationally suitable - such as having three double leaf doors as a basic starting point.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Frosty » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:43 pm

The 1.5 door artics wouldn't be much an improvement in comparison to the current 14.5m buses on the 400. They could just refit some of the regular 12.5m buses in a high density standing configuration similar to 4994 though it wouldn't work for the Bustech VST due the design of it. I heard by some drivers saying they're trying to stretch the 14.5m right to the end of their life.

I don't think DDs would work on the 400 due to the low bridge on Subway Rd Banksia. It will be interesting if STA were to order DDs after B-Line.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby swtt » Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:46 pm

Frosty wrote:I don't think DDs would work on the 400 due to the low bridge on Subway Rd Banksia. It will be interesting if STA were to order DDs after B-Line.



Apart from the B-line route which is pretty much an all-day point-to-point route, it doesn't really seem appropriate for the STA to buy a heap of DDs just for morning peak express/limited stop services.

Maybe Hillsbus should swap a heap of their low floor 14.5s over to the STA in exchange for a stash of extra DDs. 607X/M61 on their own should be all DD. Save a few 14.5s for M60.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby boronia » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:05 pm

Frosty wrote:I don't think DDs would work on the 400 due to the low bridge on Subway Rd Banksia. It will be interesting if STA were to order DDs after B-Line.

Only a small proportion of the 400s operate west of Eastgardens, so that bridge is not necessarily a problem if the Burwood runs are kept separate with single deckers.. However, it has been mentioned previously that double deckers are not suited to high passenger turnover routes like the 400 due to long dwell times and the reluctance of pax to go upstairs for short distances.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby burrumbus » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:10 pm

The 400's definately need artics,especially on the eastern side of the route.It would be easier to have artics run the whole route.That would require a large investment.Hopefully the government will stump up the cash.The route needs the investment.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby mandonov » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:50 pm

It's not really the right thread, but I've had a thought about the 400 Eastgardens terminators. Current indications (from the EIS) are that once CSELR is operational the 391 and 392 will be terminating at Todman Ave. Why not instead of terminating them in Kensington, we combine them with 400 short workings and terminate them at BJI.

This would make the 400 more consistent, reduce routes terminating in busy Kensington streets, provide a quicker trip between Eastgardens and Bondi Jct, and create a new cross town route.

Just an idea
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Swift » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:28 am

I like the idea of STA purchasing CDC 14.5s that have low entry and rear steer, to allow STA's existing high floor 14.5s to retire and to have a fleet of these newer and better 14.5s for their niche duties. Let CDC have deckers for their proven use on M2 runs. This does not mean not working on putting an end to the ridiculous situation of a private shopping centre determining whether STA's now numerous fleet of articulated buses could (and should!) be utilised on 400. The bulk of 400s should be run by articulated buses, like the Metrobus routes. My vision is to have the chevron blue and white Volgren B12BLEAs feature heavily on the 400, with a compliment of 12.5m buses and no VSTMs!
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Stu » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:36 am

K was supposed to receive Volvo B12BLEA (Volgren) artics in 2010-2011 although did not happen to the Eastgardens Westfield issue, the original allocation was then added to both R depot & P. depot respectively.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Liamena » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:46 am

They need to worry more about reliability and skipped services, than more capacity on the 400.

Not much point having bigger buses if people have to wait 50 minutes for one to turn up.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby swtt » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:29 am

Liamena wrote:They need to worry more about reliability and skipped services, than more capacity on the 400.

Not much point having bigger buses if people have to wait 50 minutes for one to turn up.
Is it traffic causing such hold ups?

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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby tonyp » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:15 am

swtt wrote:Is it traffic causing such hold ups?

I'll be interested to hear answers on that. On the Gong Shuttle it's passenger exchange that delays it due to front-door loading, rather than traffic.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby moa999 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:06 pm

Traffic around the airport loops certainly don't help at times.

Unless transformed with additional lugage storage (like Melbourne and Adelaide), the DDs also aren't that appropriate for airport runs, albeit neither are the high floor entry buses that often ply this route
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby boronia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:20 pm

Frosty wrote:I don't think DDs would work on the 400 due to the low bridge on Subway Rd Banksia. It will be interesting if STA were to order DDs after B-Line.

How much passenger traffic is generated in this section between Banksia and Rockdale? Could the 400 run along the highway instead if DDs were to be employed?
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby gld59 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:27 pm

In my limited experience, Banksia gets very little traffic, but Rockdale has enormous turnover. The Rockdale stops can be accessed as a "dead-end" though, thanks to that roundabout just north of them (built for that purpose?).

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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby Frosty » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:45 pm

A solution to the Eastgardens hump they could place a stop on the southbound side of Bunnerong Rd for through services i.e. 391,392 & 400. If the 400 were to have 18m bendies it would make most sense to base them at a depot that already operates the fleet for fleet simplicity.
During off-peak I would ideally like the frequency west of Eastgardens to be increased to every 15 mins. Easily done on Mon-Fri off-peak by extending some of the Eastgardens terminators. The customer delays are usually a couple of minutes of delay on the 400 mostly at the Eastgardens stop.

If I'm not mistaken they also use double deckers in the Gold Coast on their Airport Service.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby boronia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:53 pm

I see now there are actually no stops between the two stations, so this section of the route doesn't actually service anyone. Are there any other bus services along here now?

At Rockdale, it would be a simple matter to operate the 400 through the roundabout via Waltz St, by reversing the direction of the stops in Railway Pde.

Another alternative would be to operate via Forest Rd and Somerville St, which would not require alterations at Rockdale.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby Swift » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:23 pm

With Harry's monstrosity being built next door at Eastgardens, now's the time to work on getting artics on the 400 and this could be done by diverting it to go past the new developments as well as Eastgardens. Using the old Banks Ave route could be the way to do this.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby mandonov » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:17 pm

A new interchange on Westfield Drive would serve both trip generators equally. Just have to convince Westfield to dump Target and create a new entrance.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby boronia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:18 pm

Frosty wrote:A solution to the Eastgardens hump they could place a stop on the southbound side of Bunnerong Rd for through services i.e. 391,392 & 400. If the 400 were to have 18m bendies it would make most sense to base them at a depot that already operates the fleet for fleet simplicity.
During off-peak I would ideally like the frequency west of Eastgardens to be increased to every 15 mins. Easily done on Mon-Fri off-peak by extending some of the Eastgardens terminators. The customer delays are usually a couple of minutes of delay on the 400 mostly at the Eastgardens stop.

If I'm not mistaken they also use double deckers in the Gold Coast on their Airport Service.

A stop on B'rong road would have to be back near the Westfield Drive lights to allow the 400 to make the turn to Wentworth Ave. Not sure that pax (esp those with shopping) would welcome the walk across there.

Adelaide also has a DD on airport services, but it is definitely not the result of passenger demand. Not sure what loadings would be on GC, but there aren't all that many flights to cater for.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby boronia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:19 pm

mandonov wrote:A new interchange on Westfield Drive would serve both trip generators equally. Just have to convince Westfield to dump Target and create a new entrance.

I wouldn't be surprised if Myer vacated first.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby Swift » Sat Oct 07, 2017 6:36 pm

You can certainly free up some valuable layover space where Myer stands :twisted:
Being a limited stops service, often with large distances between stops and therefore, less quantities of potential dwell time, any 1.5 door Euro 3 B12BLEAs that become surplus to the Northern Beaches needs after the B line opens, could be conceivable on the 400 and there would be more space available to convert to luggage pens to cater for the many airport users who utilise the service.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:42 pm

If they do ever use artics on the 400 would there be any room in the layover area up the Victoria street side of Westfield Burwood for a artic to layover with all the buses that already use that layover area
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby burrumbus » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:58 pm

The route clearly needs high capacity artics on all trips.You also need luggage room,probably in the front and the trailer to make things easier for the airport pax and for shoppers.That would be ideal with all door loading and unloading,although reducing capacity a bit,but stowage for luggage is a key to improve dwell times,especially with all door load/unload and the pax amenity on heavily used trips.I'd suggest STA look at the luggage stowage areas Skybus use in Melbourne.Well designed and heaps of area.
This will require a very large investment,but the 400 is such a successful route that is completely justified in my view.I also agree with the 15 minute frequency west of Eastgardens.That would align better with the rail,especially at Rockdale and hopefully generate more pax..
From experience Rockdale generates great loadings.There is not much between Rockdale and the International Airport,excepting a couple of stops on Wickham Street,which are used regularly.Putting it up the Highway makes sense.The major choke point is at the Princes Highway/Forest Road/Wickham Street intersection,plus the freeway entrance/exit.I don't think it would be any slower up the highway,but still has those 2 major choke points.It does need to have realistic running times applied,as do many STA routes.
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