• Advertisement

Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:57 am

Swift wrote:Yet so many enthusiasts have warm feelings toward the smelly noisy oil dripping things. How anyone could have considered them worthy to replace Kogarah trolleys, let alone trams, is beyond time and space!

They didn't, they just drifted away to their cars. A few years ago I took the young ones to an STM special day at Loftus and they had two restored ex DGT buses there, one of these "hot boxes" and a decker. After a few tram rides I took them across to experience a bus ride to see the contrast we faced with the changeover back in those days. They clambered enthusiastically on board, sat down, took a whiff of the diesel fumes enveloping the bus, gagged and fled off the bus back to the trams coughing their lungs out!
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6249
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 633 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Swift » Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:30 pm

It takes just one ride at the museum to see what a daft decision it was to close such a comprehensive system that had been left to us.
Melbourne, at least, were smart and stupid Brisbane had to copy our folly to keep up with us. :roll:
Beautiful beguiling Renk Doromat. Bringing visceral joy to driveline connoisseurs. 8)
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 8706
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 451 times
Been thanked: 323 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Tonymercury » Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:59 pm

Swift wrote: and stupid Brisbane had to copy our folly to keep up with us. :roll:


I suspect that Clem Jones was capable of thinking of that for himself without any assistance.
Tonymercury
 
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:14 pm
Location: Botany NSW
Has thanked: 128 times
Been thanked: 261 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Swift » Fri Sep 29, 2017 6:31 pm

Tonymercury wrote:
Swift wrote: and stupid Brisbane had to copy our folly to keep up with us. :roll:


I suspect that Clem Jones was capable of thinking of that for himself without any assistance.

I bet Phlegm would not have done it if Sydney hadn't done it first though.
Beautiful beguiling Renk Doromat. Bringing visceral joy to driveline connoisseurs. 8)
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 8706
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 451 times
Been thanked: 323 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Rclasstramcar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:55 am

Just a quick update: it seems (from my own recent, drive by investigation) that the waiting shelter on the corner of Parriwi Road and Cyprian Street, Mosman has gone.

Ben
Return Sydney's trams
GET RID OF ABBOTT, BEFORE HE WREAKS FURTHER HAVOC ON AUSTRALIA!!!!
JAN 26-INVASION DAY
Rclasstramcar
 
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: I'm not sure
Has thanked: 57 times
Been thanked: 9 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1955 Morris Minor Series two

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Rclasstramcar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 9:58 am

lunchbox wrote:Yet another tramway remnant in Sydney.....

Where is this please, lunchbox? And another question for the membership generally, are there any remnants of the
Freshwater branch that operated from 1925 to 1939?

Ben
Last edited by Rclasstramcar on Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
Return Sydney's trams
GET RID OF ABBOTT, BEFORE HE WREAKS FURTHER HAVOC ON AUSTRALIA!!!!
JAN 26-INVASION DAY
Rclasstramcar
 
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: I'm not sure
Has thanked: 57 times
Been thanked: 9 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1955 Morris Minor Series two

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:28 am

Rclasstramcar wrote:Where is this please, lunchbox?And another question for the membership generally, are there any remnants of the
Freshwater branch that operated from 1925 to 1939?

Ben

Like elsewhere, the street pattern itself betrays where the tram went. The southern end of Oliver St climbing up the hill is the old tramway ROW. It was only converted to a street after the tramway went.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6249
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 633 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Rclasstramcar » Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:10 am

tonyp wrote:
Rclasstramcar wrote:Where is this please, lunchbox?And another question for the membership generally, are there any remnants of the
Freshwater branch that operated from 1925 to 1939?

Ben

Like elsewhere, the street pattern itself betrays where the tram went. The southern end of Oliver St climbing up the hill is the old tramway ROW. It was only converted to a street after the tramway went.


Thanks Tony. I had not considered that. It must have required some skill on the drivers' part, climbing up from Pittwater Road.

Ben
Return Sydney's trams
GET RID OF ABBOTT, BEFORE HE WREAKS FURTHER HAVOC ON AUSTRALIA!!!!
JAN 26-INVASION DAY
Rclasstramcar
 
Posts: 1280
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:36 pm
Location: I'm not sure
Has thanked: 57 times
Been thanked: 9 times
Favourite Vehicle: 1955 Morris Minor Series two

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Dave Wilson » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:53 am

But seriously, where were Brisbane and Sydney going to buy new trams in those days -even in the late 1960s ? The British had stopped development, Americans had priced themselves out of the market with super expensive PCCs and the the thought of buying an advanced German designed tram was simply out of the question. Only the MTT Adelaide took a bold step with 381 - but the cost of the new tram was high compared to a new AEC bus. Maybe if Brisbane had lasted another 4-5 years and trialled a new Melbourne Z or even the prototype, things might have been different. Brisbane's trams suffered similar problems to Sydney - archaic rolling stock (dropcentres etc) being one of them. The modern 1950's vision was for people to have a new Holden in their driveway -and they certainly went for them big time. State Governments knew this only too well and saw private cars as a way out of expensive tramway renewal schemes. Just a shame that Brisbane didn't last into the flickering beginning of the tramway Renaissance.
User avatar
Dave Wilson
 
Posts: 4260
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:30 pm
Location: SOUTHERN HIGHLANDS
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Liamena » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:40 pm

In the 1960's, there were probably a dozen companies in Australia that could have built you as many new trams as you wanted, from the ground up. It is not rocket science.
Liamena
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 8:12 pm
Has thanked: 123 times
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:06 pm

Dave Wilson wrote:But seriously, where were Brisbane and Sydney going to buy new trams in those days -even in the late 1960s ? The British had stopped development, Americans had priced themselves out of the market with super expensive PCCs and the the thought of buying an advanced German designed tram was simply out of the question. Only the MTT Adelaide took a bold step with 381 - but the cost of the new tram was high compared to a new AEC bus. Maybe if Brisbane had lasted another 4-5 years and trialled a new Melbourne Z or even the prototype, things might have been different. Brisbane's trams suffered similar problems to Sydney - archaic rolling stock (dropcentres etc) being one of them. The modern 1950's vision was for people to have a new Holden in their driveway -and they certainly went for them big time. State Governments knew this only too well and saw private cars as a way out of expensive tramway renewal schemes. Just a shame that Brisbane didn't last into the flickering beginning of the tramway Renaissance.

Comeng, for one, would have kept a supply of trams going (and would have weighed into modernising design too) until it collapsed, which was around the time the imported low-floor tram became available anyway. Incidentally, the advanced trams of the time were Czech, not German, but they were on the wrong side of the Iron Curtain. Risson looked at the Tatra T3 for early inspiration towards what became the Z, but had to settle for western European technology.

Price compared to one AEC bus?! You mean 2 AEC buses to replace one rigid tram and at least 3 to replace a coupled consist of tram. How does the price comparison go then? There wasn't even a crewing saving in buses (with or without conductors), which was the greatest operating cost.

Look at how the dillbrains (or was it maliciously deliberate?) of the DGT handled the North Sydney tram conversion. For the first few weeks, they replaced 55 x 120+ passenger tramcars (some of these in coupled sets) moving 6,600 passengers in the main evening peak hour with 50 x 70-passenger buses with a capacity of only 3,500 passengers in that hour. The result - pandemonium, particularly for those working at North Sydney who waited up to 3 hours (or caught taxis) while bus after bus went past them full. Almost immediately, those Holdens came out of their suburban driveways and were driven to park all day at Kirribilli etc while their owners (former tram passengers) transferred to trains. It can't be said that they didn't know that buses couldn't provide the capacity. The "problem" had been discussed by the likes of Maddocks right back in the 1930s when the notion of replacing trams with buses was first floated. It's not like they didn't know what the consequences would be.

Driving to work wasn't entirely a commuter-initiated process, it was given a big push by events like these (deliberate?) public transport downgradings. (A few weeks later, DGT added another 30 buses to that service, pinched from god-knows-what other services, to deliver a still somewhat short 5,600 passengers per hour - but the tram system still had heaps more capacity, the bus system didn't, plus it was now taking twice as long as the tram to get across the bridge because it was stuck in the traffic that removal of trams was claimed to "solve".)

The whole idea of replacing the trams with buses was an epic disaster for Sydney, which still has repercussions, and they didn't actually need to as Melbourne has shown. However, you are correct that there was a political agenda with cars and roads (and there still is) and it was basically a cynical exercise to force people into cars by squeezing them off public transport by reducing the capacity to the point that they couldn't or wouldn't want to get on public transport anyway. We see it still today, for example on the south coast line where growing demand is answered with clamps on train capacity and more motorway. The "new state of business" is simply the old state of business.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6249
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 633 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Dave Wilson » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:54 pm

But Comeng clearly was interested in the pushing the bus barrow. The prototype underfloor is a good example of that -out to impress the DRTT with style over function. There's no question in my mind that hundreds and hundreds of dreadful old toastracks still running in the early 1950s failed to set a good image for the tramways. One man bus operation was coming (slowly) too -the DRTT had that worked out early on and no corridor tram could compete with that cost saving exercise. Anyway Tony, you vindicate my idea that modern tram technology was not really on the radar in the English speaking west . The Germans had articulated trams in the mid 1950s and by the late 50s, Duwag was producing some good designs. To say that destroying the Sydney system was malicious is pretty right - but it was not a simple concept of economics or lobby groups. It was personality driven as much as anything else- and any notion of modernising the tramways was not going to be entertained by a Premier who wanted to create a modern Sydney 'after his own image.' The unwritten story is the real story - a bit like Hitler's spoken orders. I think comparing the political, even the academic mindset of the 1950s to that of say the 1980/90s, is probably not sustainable.
User avatar
Dave Wilson
 
Posts: 4260
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:30 pm
Location: SOUTHERN HIGHLANDS
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Swift » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:14 pm

Cars in general only reached the performance and comfort levels of the trams by the naughties anyway. Ride a Loftus to RNP special on a Sunday to experience the comparison.
How they could compare the crude relics called cars at the time of tram closure is beyond the pale.
Pity Sydney was too conceited to look to Adelaide as the inspiration for a real tram replacement bus.
Beautiful beguiling Renk Doromat. Bringing visceral joy to driveline connoisseurs. 8)
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 8706
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 451 times
Been thanked: 323 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Fri Oct 06, 2017 2:52 pm

Dave Wilson wrote:But Comeng clearly was interested in the pushing the bus barrow. The prototype underfloor is a good example of that -out to impress the DRTT with style over function. There's no question in my mind that hundreds and hundreds of dreadful old toastracks still running in the early 1950s failed to set a good image for the tramways. One man bus operation was coming (slowly) too -the DRTT had that worked out early on and no corridor tram could compete with that cost saving exercise. Anyway Tony, you vindicate my idea that modern tram technology was not really on the radar in the English speaking west . The Germans had articulated trams in the mid 1950s and by the late 50s, Duwag was producing some good designs. To say that destroying the Sydney system was malicious is pretty right - but it was not a simple concept of economics or lobby groups. It was personality driven as much as anything else- and any notion of modernising the tramways was not going to be entertained by a Premier who wanted to create a modern Sydney 'after his own image.' The unwritten story is the real story - a bit like Hitler's spoken orders. I think comparing the political, even the academic mindset of the 1950s to that of say the 1980/90s, is probably not sustainable.

Yes I could see that Comeng was pushing buses, it was growing business for them. I sometimes wonder (as a conspiracy theory!) whether the alleged post-war steel shortage for the trams was as real as it was made out to be, or was it Comeng making excuses? After all, there was steel for the buses they were building. If they'd built all the trams, they'd no doubt have been able to dispense with toastracks by 1960, the system or part of it would have survived - and Comeng would have had less bus orders...

Personally speaking, even the toastracks were more pleasant and comfortable than those double deckers and I'm not sure that there was even a modernity argument, the deckers being basically an interwar British design that survived waaaaaay after its time (only the English could achieve that!). As a veteran of Y deckers on the Ryde line (and later RMs in London), I have to say I intensely despised them. I'm sure they made a large contribution on their own to driving people away from public transport. The only advantage they had was more seats on a long run. Their total capacity was no more than that of the single deckers that also exchanged passengers more efficiently.

My point about the claimed crew savings with buses is that, on a same total capacity basis, there was actually no crew saving, even with OMO. Two buses were required to replace two trams, thus two bus drivers equals one tram driver and conductor. Three buses replacing a coupled set meant three bus drivers (at least) vs one tram driver and two conductors. In reality they got the crew savings by reducing total capacity of the bus system compared to the tram system and thus forcing those people into their private cars who hadn't already done that as part of the general trend.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6249
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 633 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Dave Wilson » Fri Oct 06, 2017 3:32 pm

Yes I wonder about the steel shortage too - probably a question for Ross Willson. During McKell's time trams were accepted as part of the mix and he envisaged a multi modal transport system. After McGirr took over in 1947, things seemed to change and I wonder that Cahill wasn't at work behind the scenes in his capacity as Deputy Premier, Minister for Planning and heir apparent. The PR1 conversions in 1949 showed how absolutely hopeless the DRTT was in design vision and that is further reinforced by the purchase of more double deckers to the basic prewar design, like wise with the new trams which were more or less identical to the Prewar R1s. The enmity toward trams seems to have emerged (well re-emerged) around 1950-51 after the Ryde Line had closed (what a joke that was the way it was instigated).Then there was the Newcastle closure . At the sametime as the R1s were being delivered,Comeng, in 1951, delivers the swish new prototype underfloor 2520. Glitzy as hell - it even ruffled the sensitivities of the highly conservative Engineering Branch. Why not a lightweight new tram design as well ? In that period the Department envisaged the retention of a compact tram system with lots of toastracks. Oh dear what a recipe for disaster. I think the then Minister (Billy Sheahan) was indifferent to trams staying and let the DRT&T alone - but Comeng Leyland AEC etc had other ideas and so did the Chief Accountant. I think this is where the rot set in and Joe Cahill took up their cause after he became Premier in 1952. As acting Transport Minister in 1953 (for 9 days) after the death of C M Martin, he certainly had a pathway to influence the workings of the DGT with impunity ! I think Cahill had several reasons to kill the trams - maybe dating back to his dismissal in the 1917 strike!
User avatar
Dave Wilson
 
Posts: 4260
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:30 pm
Location: SOUTHERN HIGHLANDS
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:42 am

Dave Wilson wrote:Why not a lightweight new tram design as well ? In that period the Department envisaged the retention of a compact tram system with lots of toastracks. Oh dear what a recipe for disaster.

I don't think they had any intention of keeping the toastracks, rather they were keen on replacing them with R1s as quickly as possible. However, what the tramways division faced after the war was the passing on of most of their earlier talent, particularly with the premature death of their gifted chief designer Fergus Maclean in 1945. He would have given them a good new tram, but without his design talent (and Comeng probably unwilling to match it at that stage) they were left with no option but to continue with the R1. That wasn't such a bad thing though as the R1 was a very capable and comfortable tram that had more capacity and better passenger-processing than any bus that replaced it until the current three-door artics came along.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6249
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 633 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Dave Wilson » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:29 am

there was definitely a plan to retain toastracks - all the Ps, a quantity of multiple unit Os and O/Ps . This sort of played out but the idea of a compact tram system being retained didn't. I'd like to know more about Fergus Maclean's in put to design. Was he involved in the design of the Rs in the early 1930s? He would have had a good advocate in the form of S A Maddocks.
User avatar
Dave Wilson
 
Posts: 4260
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:30 pm
Location: SOUTHERN HIGHLANDS
Has thanked: 58 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:03 am

Dave Wilson wrote:there was definitely a plan to retain toastracks - all the Ps, a quantity of multiple unit Os and O/Ps . This sort of played out but the idea of a compact tram system being retained didn't. I'd like to know more about Fergus Maclean's in put to design. Was he involved in the design of the Rs in the early 1930s? He would have had a good advocate in the form of S A Maddocks.

I guess we'll never know about the toastracks because it all came to an end. One thing is certain, that they were compelled to keep a fleet of them up their sleeves because nothing else had the capacity for shifting crowds during big events.

Maclean, an electrical engineer, was involved in design of the Os and Ps and was the chief designer by the 1930s, so he was the specific designer of the Rs and R1s. He left two excellent, extremely detailed engineering papers in the 1930s that showed him to have prodigious knowledge of the latest developments in tram design and operations around the world (including the PCC). He was an admirer of the American saloon car and believed in the merits of single-ended cars and the comfort of people being able to face the direction of travel in padded seats. This placed him at odds with the thinking of pretty-much every other tramway administration in Australia, most of whom were blind to or disdainful of the emerging challenge from buses!

However, the R/R1 had to be a compromise. For a start, the intention of looping the whole Sydney system never materialised, with only about half the termini looped over time, so single-ended cars weren't possible. This left him the option of reversible seats, which meant a small loss of seating capacity because of the greater seat pitch required. The Rs were a bit of a disaster on seating capacity, which led to a rethink for the R1 and it was felt the extra door could be sacrificed because people boarded and alighted on both sides of the tram in Sydney, so there wasn't a significant negative impact on passenger exchange. Maclean also didn't like the drop-centre, preferring the American-style flat floor saloon, but of course, as the doors on both sides were being used, they couldn't just have steps at the door without a hefty climb up into the tram. In the end, the R1 was no longer a drop-centre but had three dropped vestibules, front, centre and rear - a little closer to the American saloon car than the R which had two vestibules and a drop-centre. One thing that concerned Maclean about these dropped vestibules was that if the conductor was in one of them, he/she couldn't clearly see the other doors.

I've written a paper covering all this for Trolley Wire and it's sitting on the editorial desk awaiting publication at present. Hopefully it won't be too long coming!
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6249
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 633 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby boronia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:36 pm

Not exactly Sydney, or trams, but it seems that the new light rail construction in Newcastle is uncovering long lost tram and rail lines in the CBD there.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16659
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 1473 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Swift » Sat Oct 07, 2017 2:27 pm

boronia wrote:Not exactly Sydney, or trams, but it seems that the new light rail construction in Newcastle is uncovering long lost tram and rail lines in the CBD there.

There's light rail construction going on there? Ohh just a sec, are they utilising the existing rail line to Newcastle's doorstep?
Beautiful beguiling Renk Doromat. Bringing visceral joy to driveline connoisseurs. 8)
User avatar
Swift
 
Posts: 8706
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:23 pm
Location: Ettalong- the world capital of 0405s.
Has thanked: 451 times
Been thanked: 323 times
Favourite Vehicle: Porshe 911 Carerra

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Tonymercury » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:11 pm

Swift wrote:There's light rail construction going on there? Ohh just a sec, are they utilising the existing rail line to Newcastle's doorstep?


You really should pay more attention! :)
Tonymercury
 
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:14 pm
Location: Botany NSW
Has thanked: 128 times
Been thanked: 261 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby tonyp » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:18 pm

Swift wrote:There's light rail construction going on there? Ohh just a sec, are they utilising the existing rail line to Newcastle's doorstep?

I recommend a subscription to Transit Australia.
Perpetually on a T3 to "I. P. Pavlova, přestup na Metro. Příští zastávka, Náměsti Míru"
User avatar
tonyp
 
Posts: 6249
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:31 am
Location: Shoalhaven
Has thanked: 378 times
Been thanked: 633 times

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby boronia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 3:31 pm

Swift wrote:There's light rail construction going on there? Ohh just a sec, are they utilising the existing rail line to Newcastle's doorstep?

Perhaps they are putting it where it might be more beneficial to the people who will use it?
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16659
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 1473 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby lunchbox » Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:55 am

Another remnant doomed? Randwick Council has instructed that the property known as 23 - 27 Adina Avenue, Phillip Bay, is to be sold or leased. The peculiarly shaped block and the building which sits on it are long and slender, bearing no apparent relationship to the surrounding street pattern. They lie, of course, on the formation, and within the property boundary, of the former Springvale tram line, extended on this alignment in March 1922, which snaked its way from the Anzac Parade ridge down to join Bunnerong Road at the cemetery creek, in a futile attempt to "follow the contour". Aerial pix of the site are currently appearing in the Sydney Morning Herald. ("Springvale" was then the locality name at the end of the Botany tram line).
Last edited by lunchbox on Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
lunchbox
 
Posts: 1296
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2007 3:50 pm
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 84 times
Been thanked: 109 times
Favourite Vehicle: Bicycle - no waiting - on time

Re: Old Sydney Tram Remnants

Postby Tonymercury » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:33 pm

Currently being advertised as a 'former nursing home', I suspect.
Tonymercury
 
Posts: 2190
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:14 pm
Location: Botany NSW
Has thanked: 128 times
Been thanked: 261 times

PreviousNext


  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Sydney / NSW

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LB608 and 8 guests