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[Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Myrtone » Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:12 pm

I wonder if guards may be helpful in keeping an eye on passengers on the train.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:33 pm

Only if there are CCTV cameras in the train
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mandonov » Sun Mar 19, 2017 7:57 pm

So I'm guessing the 8 car trains will be limited to the South Coast and Central Coast via Shore services, with 10 car trains on the Newcastle and Blue Mountains?
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:59 pm

yes, you would be guessing
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mandonov » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:11 pm

Poor phrasing I admit. It makes sense though, because presumably the same issue V sets face of platform length at underground stations would continue to apply to a train 10 metres longer, especially if SCO services continue to terminate at Bondi Jct.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mandonov » Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:43 pm

So based on a line in the Eveleigh REF that said the 205m long 10 car train is about 40 metres longer than the existing 164m long 8 car trains, I am going to assume that the dimensions of the NIF cars are largely the same as the Oscar.

So using the current seating layout of the Oscar and changing it to 2+2 seating, I've guessed the seated capacity of each version of the NIF. I've also taken into account images from last years video rendering of the design that shows luggage racks where vestibule seating would be, as well as racks replacing the seating at the very end of the deck:
Image
Image
I've used the assumption that each deck will have that row of seating replaced with luggage racks, and that only toilet cars have vestibule racks (any more would be overkill). I've also assumed there's only one toilet per set, like the Oscars, so if there are more then there's obviously 8 less seats.
The fleet info on Sydney Trains' website gives a range for the seated capacity of a V set, so I gave a lower and upper number. NS is New Short, NL is New Long.
Numbers given are for an 8 car train, except NL which is 10 cars.

Set | Length | Seats
V | 193m | l = 720 u = 872
H | 164m | 864
NS | 164m | 608
NL | 205m | 784
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New emus too wide too long

Postby Roderick Smith » Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:35 am

Roderick.

August 10 2017 'Too wide and long': Work starts next year to make line big enough for new trains.
Stretches of track in the Blue Mountains will have to be shifted slightly or replaced, and stations and overhead wires altered, to make about 75 kilometres of line between Springwood and Lithgow suitable for the state's $2.3 billion fleet of new intercity trains [a prostitution of the term by NSW for several years].
Commuters also face extended periods of track closures on a section between Newnes Junction and Lithgow, according to a government report into the work needed to bring the line up to the standard of the rest of the state's electrified rail network.
More videos Gladys Berejiklian announces train network boost In June 2015, the NSW Treasurer announced the biggest ever investment in the state's transport networks.
Transport authorities are making preparations for the work to begin early next year and expect it to take two years to complete.
At present, the line west beyond Springwood to Katoomba and Lithgow can handle only the state's ageing V-Set trains, which are narrower than three metres.
That is too narrow for the Korean-built trains the government ordered last year, which will be about 3.1 metres wide.
The work proposed to bring the line up to standard will involve replacing or repositioning tracks along parts of the 75-kilometre rail corridor, extending platforms at Katoomba and Lithgow stations, and adjusting the overhead wiring and signalling systems.
The platforms at Katoomba and Lithgow will need to be lengthened because services terminate at those stations. The report by Transport for NSW says all doors on the new trains – which will be up to 205m long – will need to be able to be opened at those stations to allow passengers to get off.
While much of the minor work can be done during ordinary hours, a large portion of the project will have to take place during 10 scheduled track possession periods over two years. They typically involve shutdown periods of 48 hours over a weekend.
An artist's impression of the new trains that will be built in South Korea. Photo: Supplied .
However, the report says that five of those possession periods for the line between Newnes Junction and Lithgow will have to each last for as long as 12 days.
Transport for NSW will also seek separate approval for improvements to a section of the line that passes through what is known as the "10 tunnels deviation" in the Blue Mountains.
Blue Mountains Line project. Photo: Transport for NSW .
Labor transport spokeswoman Jodi McKay said the amount of work needed to make the line capable of handling the new trains was astonishing.
"Not only will a staggering 60km of track need to be ripped up – but now we discover that overhead wiring, signals, station platforms and even canopies will all need to be altered," she said.
"Not only that but all the extra work needed – that the government didn't foresee – will mean commuters on the Blue Mountains Line will have to contend with two years of rail closures before they get a glimpse of these trains."
But Transport Minister Andrew Constance accused Labor of a "scare campaign with absolutely no substance to it", saying the government wanted to give people in the Blue Mountains a modern train line that was integrated with the rest of the network.
"Currently more than half of all our train fleet cannot service that line and only electric intercity trains [V-Sets] fit the Blue Mountains Line all the way to Lithgow," he said.
"Standardising the Blue Mountains Line is a sensible approach and will help to future-proof our network."
The government is yet to reveal how much it expects the cost of bringing the Blue Mountains Line up to scratch will be. The $2.3 billion contract awarded to a UGL-led consortium to build the 512 double-deck train carriages does not include modifications to the line or a new maintenance facility at Kangy Angy on the Central Coast.
A spokesman for Transport for NSW said the modification was subject to a tender process and the estimated cost commercial-in-confidence "in order to ensure taxpayers receive the best value for money".
The contract for the trains is the biggest in NSW since the government awarded the troubled Waratah project to a Downer EDI-led consortium about a decade ago to build carriages in China. The first of the new intercity trains are due to begin operating services from Sydney's Central Station to Newcastle and the Illawarra in 2019.
Related Articles:
New trains too wide for sections of NSW rail lines .
Train guards in firing line from $2.3b fleet renewal .
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/too-wide-and- ... xsana.html
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Jurassic_Joke » Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:56 pm

I really have to say. At the end of the day. All this thing really looks like, is a glorified, modernised, HOP-ified (orange) Oscar with some seating changes. Whether that last one will prove popular or is a good idea, time will tell.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby swtt » Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:46 pm

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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby jpp42 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:25 pm

I'm pretty surprised they decided to extend the upgrades past Mt. Victoria. I thought for sure it would make more sense to de-wire that section and replace with diesel shuttles.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:41 pm

I thought there was a problem with clearances in the tunnels. No mention of that in the documents.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Transtopic » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:12 pm

The thing is that there are a number of connecting coach services from the Central West, as well as those who drive, that converge on Lithgow. It's a more appropriate interchange location than Mt Victoria. I think it would be a waste to decommission the electric infrastructure and it appears that is unlikely to happen. Taking a long term perspective, I can see the logic in upgrading the infrastructure to allow for the operation of a standard Intercity train fleet.

Who knows, there could be a resurgence in coal exports, with the worldwide adoption of HELE (High Efficiency Low Emissions) technology power generation. That would make the Maldon to Dombarton rail link viable allowing electric haulage to both Port Kembla and Newcastle.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby rogf24 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:13 am

I don't think there'll be a resurgence in coal exports. There'll be a rise in natural gas exports, Australia is expected to be the world's largest natural gas exporter soon. Natural gas is really eating into coal's market share for electricity generation, more so than renewables. I'm not aware of the Lithgow containing any natural gas reserves.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Transtopic » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:25 am

rogf24 wrote:I don't think there'll be a resurgence in coal exports. There'll be a rise in natural gas exports, Australia is expected to be the world's largest natural gas exporter soon. Natural gas is really eating into coal's market share for electricity generation, more so than renewables. I'm not aware of the Lithgow containing any natural gas reserves.

Gas is pricing itself out of the market. Coal is still cheap and will remain so. I wouldn't write it off just yet, regardless of the climate ramifications.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby GazzaOak » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:26 am

Its worth the money to do upgrades to the blue mountains line.... since they haven't received new trains in a while. And also if the government want to buy new trains, they don't have to worry about things.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby swtt » Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:49 am

If some Oscars in the interim were to operate past Springwood, it could.

Silly to cascade all the Oscars back to suburban operation before 2022 when all the NIF cars are delivered.

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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:06 am

One advantage of wider cars will be the reduction of platform gaps and their inherent dangers.

News media gets good mileage out of videos and stories about kids falling through (because their parents don't supervise them properly).
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mandonov » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:19 pm

boronia wrote:I thought there was a problem with clearances in the tunnels. No mention of that in the documents.

The only mention in the REF is that the Ten Tunnels are a separate project all together.

It makes reference to the supporting projects involved for the NIF: Kangy Angy, Eveleigh, Mortdale, Blue Mountains stations, and Ten Tunnels as separate individual projects.

The document also says modifications to Mt Victoria and Zig Zag are in a project apart from the rest of the stations, so I'm going to assume those two will be a part of the Ten Tunnels contract.
Last edited by mandonov on Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:26 pm

This comment has recently been posted to the TramsDownUnder yahoo group:
This was all known when I was still on the job. RVX4 was sent over the mountains around 2009 or 2010 to do a laser profiling run. It identified the infringements to the narrow as well as the medium loading gauge. So all was known and the number of tight spots was not huge.
The main two tight spots were through the ZZ tunnels and the western end of Mt Vic yard at the single slip points.
Most engineers DO NOT GO into such ventures with their eyes closed and you can bet that the track alterations were in the original submission. Things like signal infringements would be dealt with by replacing an old type signal by an LED as part of upgrades and the single slip was to be part of a rearrangement of Mt Vic when it was to be removed and the track centres widened.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby rogf24 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:35 pm

My take is that if they're going to upgrade the Ten Tunnels and the rest of the line, I'm dreaming but they should also make it accommodate double stack container freight trains from Parkes up to about St Marys where the new Western Sydney Freight Line meets and they should build that line to have double stack. Or is double stack across the mountains too dangerous? I'm not sure about that one, Canada and the US does double stack across their mountains.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:58 pm

mandonov wrote:
boronia wrote:I thought there was a problem with clearances in the tunnels. No mention of that in the documents.

The only mention in the REF is that the Ten Tunnels are a separate project all together.

It makes reference to the supporting projects involved for the NIF; and lists the Kangy Angy, Eveleigh, Mortdale, Blue Mountains stations, and Ten Tunnels as separate individual projects.

The document also says modifications to Mt Victoria and Zig Zag are in a project apart from the rest of the stations, so I'm going to assume those two will be a part of the Ten Tunnels contract.
Isn't Zig Zag one of those short platfrm stations where passengers need to notify the guard and alight the train from the rear door of the rear carriage
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:15 pm

I think that double stacking would require the removal of the overhead for a start. Apart from heightening the tunnels, there would be numerous road bridges in the way as well, maybe station concourses or pedestrian overpasses.

Western Sydney Freight Line?? What is happening with the WSF Terminal? Work was supposed to start last year, but no sign of any likely sites yet.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mandonov » Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:40 pm

Campbelltown busboy wrote: Isn't Zig Zag one of those short platfrm stations where passengers need to notify the guard and alight the train from the rear door of the rear carriage

Yes, but it and all the other stations need their platforms shaved to accomodate the wider rolling stock.

Btw the extent of platform lengthening a Katoomba and Lithgow is an extra 4 metres on the eastern side of Katoomba platform 1, and an extra 12 metres on the western side of the Lithgow island platform.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby boronia » Thu Aug 17, 2017 8:43 pm

The BM locals are up in arms in the local rags, that TfNSW is going to shave 25 cm off all the platform copings to accommodate the wider carriages. But the new carriages will be only 108mm wider than a V set, so there should only be a need to provide just an extra 5 cm of clearance per side. The REF does state "up to 25 cm" in a few places, but might this only be for likely places with "tail-swing" problems? With shorter carriages, there would be less problem with centre-of-car or end-of-car clearances on curves.
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Re: [Australian] Mike Baird buying new trains off the rack

Postby mandonov » Mon Feb 05, 2018 7:22 pm

The Ten Tunnels REF is now up as well as a page on general station modifications, with Emu Plains the only station with current plans.

Ten Tunnels: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... en-tunnels

Stations and Signalling: https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... ifications
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