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Next generation railcars for Transperth

Perth / Western Australia Transport Discussion

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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby theenglishguy » Sun Oct 25, 2015 12:18 pm

TP1462 wrote:http://www.perthnow.com.au/news/western-australia/wa-governments-12-billion-perth-railcar-pledge-may-be-shunted/news-story/31ee5efb2ce94870396e6fee4d9884cd?utm_content=SocialFlow&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_source=PerthNow&utm_medium=Facebook


Apparently the project is going to be shelved...


It will be awful if this is true (and I can't see why it wouldn't be). Ordering new trains has been delayed so many times with the new B-series cars arriving 5 years later than they should have been. Perth might not be growing as quickly now, but in 5-10 years times when these trains would start being delivered they will definitely be needed (trains are already congested at peak times). Really disappointing, pretty much sums up the Liberal government's policy on public transport - announce an important project then scrap it 5 months later.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby TP1462 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 2:12 pm

Local: New Perth railcars in doubt as ministers consider shelving $1.2b project
http://ab.co/1GprurA

Labor wants the government to come clean
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby 102 at 1625 » Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:09 pm

PerthNow wrote:Another insider said times were so tough Treasury officials were even pushing for the Barnett Government to force commuters to pay more to board during peak times.

It's sad that the government want to punish public transport users who are making an environmentally friendly, congestion-alleviating choice rather than taxing road users through a congestion charge as recommended by the Economic Regulation Authority last year (fact sheet report pages 90-115) and using it to fund public transport.

Although peak only fares will help reduce overcrowding on trains by encouraging passengers to travel off-peak, it will erode the already small financial advantage of catching public transport to workplaces in the city.

It's also disappointing that they are pushing through with an widely criticised freight link whilst dumping far more popular public transport infrastructure projects.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby TP1462 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:57 pm

Train order on the back-burner
https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/29912120/


390 railcars are required by 2050 as the number of daily trips increase to over 12 million
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby TP1462 » Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:06 pm

Local: Nalder moves to allay Perth train fears as RAC opposes rethink
http://ab.co/1Wd6efA

The B series contract is likely to be extended
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Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby TP1462 » Tue Oct 27, 2015 11:14 am

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/ ... rail-cars/

Barnett government to order more B series


The State Government is expected to buy more “B-series” rail cars to service the new Forrestfield-Airport rail link so a $1.2 billion order for next-generation trains can be pushed back

Another 10 3car B series systems are to be delivered to TransPerth

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-10-2 ... nt/6886814
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Zidanehartono » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:48 pm

Off The Rails wrote:1625, brakes aren't the killer for B sets on heritage - traction motors will burn out on them.

Cheers! :wink:


Well do you remember when a B-Series got smoke years ago from the brakes,wasnt a fire either.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Off The Rails » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:15 pm

That's something called faulty brakes. Again, not the reason they don't normally operate on heritage lines. Again, please research more into this topic.

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Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby TP1462 » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:24 pm

B series are not the only class to have faulty brakes, A set 37 has also had this issue on the Fremantle line, as off the rails just mentioned.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Merc1107 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:19 am

I think I postulated the question years ago if and/or when the A-series units would finally see their day. We all know the B-series units aren't well suited to the roles they serve (unless, I suppose, new stopping patterns were introduced).

What would be great is more cars/frequency or alterations to the stopping patterns on the North and South lines.
Quite a while back (before moving for Uni) was staying with friends in Currambine and did the train-gig into the city during peak. All was well till we reached the last couple of stops before "Non-Stop to Perth," (I think this skips Stirling and Leederville?). Talk about a squeeze - on a 6 car set no less. I can only imagine that worsening now as Perth's sprawl keeps progressing.

Much as I love the A-series trains, its great to see they're mostly a thing of the past on these lines. Unless you can fit more in these trains (by virtue of the standing, rather than sitting layout most seem to have), the extra capacity on W services would be welcomed, as would the additional 8-16 cars (not sure how many were used) on the other three lines.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Bus Suggestions » Wed May 03, 2017 11:40 pm

TP1462 wrote:8) The proposed railcars shall support the reduction of station dwell times with double leaf door portals spaced at intervals no greater than 5.5m on each vehicle side (equivalent to 4 doors per side of a 24metre vehicle)

My negative thinking:
1. So, one carriage is 1+1/3 of an articulated bus?
2. Did anybody think about XWD (Extra Wide Doors)? I see the point in 4 doors per carriage side but this would (probably) reduce the total capacity of a new train. Extra wide doors also work in the same way as the 4 doors, however, there will be less electrical equipment needed to fit a train with XWD rather than a 4-door carriage. This will also minimise the cost.
Positivity:
1. These new railcars are essential for Perth to keep its running reputation for having one of the best public transport systems in the world.
2. Capacity is increasing on the main thoroughfare (Butler/Mandurah) especially with last week's Aubin Grove station opening.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby tonyp » Thu May 04, 2017 8:48 am

Bus Suggestions wrote: Perth to keep its running reputation for having one of the best public transport systems in the world.

I'm from NSW and FIFO to Perth regularly. One day I rang Transperth's info people about a Smartrider matter and at the end of the call I congratulated them on having the best public transport system in Australia, wish we had something that good in Sydney, keep up the good work, you should be proud of yourselves etc - and after a moment's stunned silence the lady said wow, thank you, the only calls we get over here are people complaining! :lol: :lol:
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby tonyp » Thu May 04, 2017 1:19 pm

I wonder if I can have a bit of confusion in my mind about train seating cleared up?

I gather from observation that the A series trains basically all have longitudinal seating, though I have been on a train on the Fremantle line that I assume was an A series that had some lateral seating. On the other hand, I gather the B series have a mixture of lateral and longitudinal seating but mostly the former? Is there some consistent description for the seating layout in both series, or are their some variations within each class?

What type of seating is proposed for the C series?
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Mr OC Benz » Thu May 04, 2017 2:47 pm

Bus Suggestions wrote:2. Did anybody think about XWD (Extra Wide Doors)? I see the point in 4 doors per carriage side but this would (probably) reduce the total capacity of a new train. Extra wide doors also work in the same way as the 4 doors, however, there will be less electrical equipment needed to fit a train with XWD rather than a 4-door carriage. This will also minimise the cost.

Total capacity is actually increased with the C-series 4 doors per carriage. Being permanently configured as 6-car sets, it removes the space that would otherwise be taken by the driver's cab in 2x 3-car sets. The additional doors and reduced seating provide additional standing room which increases overall capacity. Much more efficient solution compared with extending platform lengths, longer trains etc and enables the deferral of new infrastructure spend.

tonyp wrote:I wonder if I can have a bit of confusion in my mind about train seating cleared up?

I gather from observation that the A series trains basically all have longitudinal seating, though I have been on a train on the Fremantle line that I assume was an A series that had some lateral seating. On the other hand, I gather the B series have a mixture of lateral and longitudinal seating but mostly the former? Is there some consistent description for the seating layout in both series, or are their some variations within each class?

What type of seating is proposed for the C series?

A series (01-48) = All cars longitudinal (all modified from a previous layout similar to sets 061-094).
B series (049-060?) = Front and rear cars are mix of longitudinal and forward/rear facing seats (generally towards centre of each car). Centre car is entirely longitudinal - modified to boost capacity several years ago.
B series (061?-094) = All cars mix of longitudinal (generally towards centre of each car) and forward/rear facing seats.
B series (095-116) = All cars longitudinal.
B series (117-126) = Deliveries for FAL in 2020. Layout not yet known and whether there will be any variations (e.g. luggage racks).

There is no actual contract for C-series trains yet. It was deferred due to budgetary constraints. With the new Labor government, it is not yet clear whether they will even proceed with the C-series project and/or whether they'll even be to the desired specification set out by the PTA.

B-series do occasionally work heritage lines during periods of track closures as well as for special events (Fremantle Line to West Leederville or Showgrounds) which may explain your sighting.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby actually » Thu May 04, 2017 3:31 pm

I saw a program a few weeks ago about some new trains in Japan that had extra doors that were only used in the peak times. In between peak extra seats slid down from up neat the roof and blocked the doors. In peak the seat slid up and provided extra doors and standing space. Pretty cool
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby tonyp » Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:58 am

Mr OC Benz wrote:
A series (01-48) = All cars longitudinal (all modified from a previous layout similar to sets 061-094).
B series (049-060?) = Front and rear cars are mix of longitudinal and forward/rear facing seats (generally towards centre of each car). Centre car is entirely longitudinal - modified to boost capacity several years ago.
B series (061?-094) = All cars mix of longitudinal (generally towards centre of each car) and forward/rear facing seats.
B series (095-116) = All cars longitudinal.
B series (117-126) = Deliveries for FAL in 2020. Layout not yet known and whether there will be any variations (e.g. luggage racks).


This is the B series from the Bombardier website, apparently as designed:

Image

The seating capacity is given as: 67+14 folding in driving motors; 78+8 folding in trailer cars.

So with full conversion to longitudinal seating what is the seating capacity now?
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Mr OC Benz » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:09 pm

Including folding seats:
B series (049-060?) - 81 seats in each driving car and 80 seats in trailer car
B series (061?-094) - As described in previous post (81 seats in each driving car, 86 in trailer car)
B series (095-116) - 72 seats in each driving car and 80 seats in trailer car

I think they work on the basis of 600 pax per 3-car set regardless of layout. Obviously in practice, it's easier to fit that many in with less seats (or more folding seats). All the seats surrounding the doors on the new sets (095-116) are now folding seats. Previously, priority seating next to the door was fixed and the opposite side was folding to allow for wheelchairs and bikes.
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Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby TP1462 » Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:41 pm

C SERIES + Australind replacement

This 15 year strategy will include;

New EMU passenger railcars for the METRONET expansion

Renewal of the passenger railcars on the existing train lines

Replacement DMU passenger railcars for the Australind train

Maintenance of the fleet

https://www.tenders.wa.gov.au/watenders ... pen-tender


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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Merc1107 » Sat Jul 22, 2017 6:50 pm

TP1462 wrote:Replacement DMU passenger railcars for the Australind train

... And thus the fate of the current Australind sets is sealed. Ride them while you can, folks!

It will be interesting to see what eventuates for the service - whether more provision will be made for future expansion of the service with additional rolling stock, or improvements to the current journey time made.
I certainly hope someone can make the strides necessary to upgrade the Australind from a 110km/h maximum speed. It was laughable in the late 1980s, and is now completely ridiculous. I can't say many would find the service usable as a means of commuting to Perth for work.

Hypothetically, a railway that actually links the major south-western towns (or cities) with Perth would be great.
Or at the very least promoting existing regional rail services, ensuring there are timetabled connections with road-coaches (that are adhered to) and making the destination(s) tourist friendly by making hire cars or tourist charters accessible by rail.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 9:06 am

Is there the platform capacity across the Perth system to build up the trains to 9 car sets if needed?
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Merc1107 » Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:40 am

tonyp wrote:Is there the platform capacity across the Perth system to build up the trains to 9 car sets if needed?

Not presently.
Most stations on the older 3 railway lines are limited to 4 cars, and six cars is the norm for the two newer lines (Joondalup and Mandurah).

Money permitting (a big issue at the moment), consideration needs to be given to 9 car sets, and greater BEFORE we get to the stage where this is necessary. I am unsure what provision was made for the expansion of the two underground stations, but would expect (or hope) they planned on future growth.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby tonyp » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:18 pm

Thanks. I had the vague impression (without measuring it specifically) that some stations (probably mainly termini) have greater length than the train. I must make more detailed observations next time. I would observe that side platforms can be extended more easily than island platforms, so if they've put in a lot of islands they've given themselves a bit of a job to do in the future!
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby Mr OC Benz » Tue Jul 25, 2017 12:46 pm

Future planning was intended for 9-cars on the Joondalup-Mandurah Line. Don't forget that the Joondalup Line was originally 4-cars and that was extended without fuss to 6-cars pre-2007. Yes, other stations may require some modifications. Perth and Perth Stadium Stations can both handle 9-car trains - whether they'll actually operate on event days remains to be seen. Considering the plans to put a dock platform at Cockburn Central to serve the Cockburn-Thornlie Link, it too easily has the capacity for 9-car trains. There would be difficulty on heritage lines, particularly closely spaced stations, track alignment and the impact on journey times. There would be no need for 9-cars on the heritage lines anyhow with overall less demand than the north-south spine.

As I understand it now, 9-cars is not a preferred option (or ideal) anyway, with preference instead to build up efficiency of current infrastructure (such as increased standing room and overall capacity, more doors on trains, improved signalling etc) and/or to build new infrastructure that is designed to be robust and resilient, isolating impacts of disruption, alleviating pressure on existing infrastructure and expands catchment areas of rail - all are big fundamental problems of amateur Metronet in its current form.
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Re: Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby TP1462 » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:11 pm

https://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/P ... -jobs.aspx

Local companies invited to METRONET railcar procurement briefing
McGowan Government plan to boost local jobs and guarantee local supply
Briefing for WA manufacturers and sub-supplier small and medium businesses
2017-18 State Budget included $322 million over four years for new railcars
The McGowan Government is delivering on its job-creating election commitment to form a rolling stock strategy that grows the State's capacity to build METRONET railcars locally.

METRONET will significantly increase demand for new rolling stock, and will require about 102 new railcars (17 six-car sets) to be added to the existing Transperth fleet.

The McGowan Government's METRONET railcar procurement project sets a target of 50 per cent local content work for the manufacturing of new railcars.

Western Australian manufacturers are invited to attend a briefing to learn more about how they can get involved in the State Government's program.

The initial briefing will help the State Government clarify where local work and training opportunities currently exist, and how ongoing jobs and apprenticeships can be created.

Construction briefings have already been held for local engineering and design consultancies in the construction industry, in relation to the new METRONET rail lines and stations.

The October event will enable government and relevant manufacturers to understand what skills, products and services currently exist within WA, which may be available to support the manufacture and maintenance of a new design of railcars.

It will also provide valuable networking opportunities for local small to medium-sized businesses looking to be involved in future supply chain work.

The briefing will be held at Technology Park in Bentley on Thursday, October 26. Interested businesses must register online by Friday, October 20.

Doesn't clarify if these 6 car trains are just reconfigured 6car B series or an entirely new generation C series


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Next generation railcars for Transperth

Postby TP1462 » Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:08 am

C SERIES

Rollingstock requirements
102 railcars configured in fixed six-car sets for METRONET Stage 1 Designed for high passenger capacity and to reduce station load/unload timing
Technically ready for next generation of signalling system Replacement of Australind (diesel) railcar fleet
4 doors per carriage side

Timeframes
• 6 x 6 railcar sets (36 cars) in 2021 (ready for Thornlie- Cockburn and Yanchep)
• 5 x 6 railcar sets (30 cars) in 2022
• 5 x 6 railcar sets (30 cars) in 2023
• 1 x 6 railcar set (6 cars) in 2024
• Followed by A- series replacement

Maintenance
Long term maintenance deal with the railcar manufacturer• Railcar maintenance facilities located at Bellevue and Nowergup• Stabling facilities at Bellevue, Nowergup, Claisebrook, Mandurah and Cooloongup

Procurement timeframe and contract

• Shortlisting phase to commence in Q1 2018
• Interactive Tendering phase with shortlisted
manufacturers
• Contracts with selected railcar manufacturer to commence Q1 2019
• Supply and Maintenance Contracts to include commitment to agreed Local Industry Participation Plan
• Commitment to be verified throughout Contract life cycles

http://www.jtsi.wa.gov.au/docs/default- ... ?sfvrsn=12



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