• Advertisement

Police pursuits

Canberra / ACT Transport Discussion - Where the ACTION is

Moderator: Busnerd

Re: Police pursuits

Postby Jumbles » Mon May 10, 2010 9:05 am

franfran wrote:
eddy wrote:After listening to ABC talkback on police pursuits last night the thought came to me that if all new cars were fitted with a 120kph speed limiter or perhaps a GPS that cuts out the motor over 120kph then nobody would try to do a runner because the police would catch them in two blocks?


Sounds good, as who would need to do more than 10 km/h above the highest permissible speed limit, but there is one problem. The 110 km/h speed limit (the maximum allowable in NSW) is not just for motorways and high quality rural divided roads; it also can apply to some undivided rural roads with low traffic volume. So what happens if you are driving along one of the latter classes of roads, pull out to pass a vehicle doing say, 90 km/h and another vehicle comes out of a side road or farm entrance? While you are overtaking, you are probably doing over 110 km/h, as the less time you spend on the wrong side of the road the better, so you need a bit of extra speed for about 30 seconds to avoid a head on accident at high speed and..............


What a preposterous thing to say....
Why don't people understand that a speed limit is just that, a limit. If you cannot [b]SAFELY[/i] overtake a vehicle without going over the limit, then you shouldn't be overtaking them in the first place.
<rant>
One of the big things people seem to miss in debates about speeding is that you don't really gain much - even in the example above.

Consider:
Let's assume it is possible to average 110km/h between Canberra and Adelaide (realistically, it would be near impossible, given there are towns and you need to stop for fuel etc etc etc). Let us further assume, that Adelaide is slightly nearer to Canberra than it actually is (to make the Math work), and that the journey is 1100km. This means that you would complete the journey in 10 hours. Let us now assume that for the whole journey (incredibly unlikely) you are stuck behind someone averaging 100km/h. Your journey now takes 11hours. In a journey like Adelaide-Canberra, you are unlikely to be stuck behind a vehicle for longer than 300km where neither of you is pulling off the road for a rest or petrol. In this situation, meaning you lose a little less than 20 minutes. Further, if you do overtake the car, what are the chances that they will drive past the next time you pull off the road - rendering your maneuver useless?

Realistically, on a journey of this length (assuming you are trying to do it in 1 day) you will most likely take 13-15 hours depending on rest breaks etc. Is there really a significant difference in arriving 2 hours later? If darkness bothers you (especially through skippy territory), then plan to do such a drive over 2 days.

One thing that police in NSW (and SA by the sounds) have started doing, is taking a 'no excuse' approach, especially on country roads. If you can't safely overtake without exceeding the speed limit, wait for an overtaking lane. If the driver is an asshole and speeds up when you get to an overtaking lane, pull off at the next rest stop, take 10 minutes, and the other car will be far enough up the road not to be in your way.

There is no excuse for speeding. Whatsoever! I'm sick of people trying to justify speeding, while still acknowledging that the police should so something about it. The only way road tolls in this country will ever be reduced, is if people realise that impatient driving offers very little benefit to the impatient driver, while often causing signifcant cost for patient drivers (look at the LH turn lane Anzac Highway into Morphett St in peak hour for an example on how a few drivers gaining 5 seconds loses a lot of drivers several minutes).
It is perhaps a little ironic, that times stationary have a bigger impact on trip times than times moving. In metropolitan areas, traffic lights dictate average trip times, while in the country fuel and rest breaks will have a bigger impact on trip time than 10 or 20km/h on the speedo.
</rant>

On the High Speed chase issue:
We recently had a major accident as a result of a high speed chase (resulting in 4 deaths), and people were very quick to blame the police. Ironically, police claim to have called off the chase less than a minute before the impact. Had they continued the chase, the sound of their sirens may have alerted the innocent driver killed that trouble was coming. As someone else said, calling off a chase is rarely an option once it has started. NSW & ACT Police have called on the government to allow them use speed spikes and the 'PIT' maneuver to avoid chases, however looks (at the moment) as if the govt will be reluctant to allow it. It is time (not just with high speed chases) that police and the justice system got tough on people who have a flagrant disregard for the law. (eg: how will extending someone's suspension when they drive on a suspended licence stop them doing it again? Let's crush people's cars, or lock them up. It may be expensive to lock people up in the short term, but it should act as a disincentive for others - meaning valuable police resources aren't wasted, saving money in the longer term.

2c - Kent Brockman.

<edit>Thought I was in the SA forum...obviously most here would know about the recent tragedy here...</edit>
User avatar
Jumbles
 
Posts: 197
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:43 am
Location: Back to the beach
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Favourite Vehicle: Unicycle

Re: Police pursuits

Postby eddy » Sun May 16, 2010 9:14 pm

Hi Jumbles
We have just had a man in NSW sentenced to ten years for attempting to outrun the police and killing a mans wife and daughter in another vehicle.
This is lose lose all round the husband said on TV “ no sentence would be enough” and even the jailed man would be thinking it would have been better for him if the car had been limited to 130kph.Also it probably cost $1m for the accident, court costs and jail so there is an economic argument for 130kph limiters too.
On certain roads out Dubbo way I personally do not think it would be too risky to do up to 130kph to get around another vehicle quickly.
The concern is some people have the need for speed and over the years I have met or read about so many people that have done over 200kph in cars or motor bikes that I think that there must be about 1 in 100 in society. These can be nice people and one was a high ranking police guy in his private car about 10 years ago doing over 200kph when he got caught.
I just wanted to back up franfran in that I do not believe 130kph excessive under certain circumstances.
Parrahub, an extra option in the public transport menu https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model. ... 6dde66e6c7
User avatar
eddy
 
Posts: 2306
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:18 am
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Police pursuits

Postby eddy » Wed May 19, 2010 8:12 am

Sorry to bang on further but last night I had the thought that an insurance company could offer reduced charges to 130kph speed limited vehicles because nobody would steal a car with a 130kph speed limited sticker also the type of driver who just wants the power without the speed would be far less likely to have a smash.
I am sure the police and the jail system would be all for it because of the money they would save.
Parrahub, an extra option in the public transport menu https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model. ... 6dde66e6c7
User avatar
eddy
 
Posts: 2306
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:18 am
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Police pursuits

Postby boronia » Wed May 19, 2010 9:51 am

I can't really see that a speed limiter will reduce the number of accidents, or the severity of accidents, below this speed which would be the majority of insurance claims.

I would suggest that most car thefts are not related to the ultimate speed of the vehicle either. Anyone serious enough to steal a high speed car would probably be able to by pass the limiter anyway.
The Sydney Classic and Antique Truck (and Bus) Show
On again May 2018
@ The Museum of Fire.
User avatar
boronia
 
Posts: 16663
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 5:18 am
Location: Sydney
Has thanked: 249 times
Been thanked: 1474 times
Favourite Vehicle: Dennis

Re: Police pursuits

Postby eddy » Wed May 19, 2010 5:54 pm

You may be right but my thinking is that the car thief with a choice of two vehicles will take the one that he has a chance of outrunning police as against one where he has no chance also the person who wants to impress people with his fast car would be more likely to use it.
Last week I became aware of a man who did 230kph in his ute on the Newcastle highway and I believe there is more chance of an accident at those speeds and the damage must be more severe.
Parrahub, an extra option in the public transport menu https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model. ... 6dde66e6c7
User avatar
eddy
 
Posts: 2306
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:18 am
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Re: Police pursuits

Postby dropbear68 » Mon Aug 01, 2011 6:45 pm

Police cars would be exempt from governing, as would Ambos and Fireys, Ive oftened wondered why in this world when you have a average speed limit of 110 on the HighWays around the country , why do we need vehicles capable of 200 plus kph and my personal un favorite them rocket powered motor bikes, whats the point? your never goping to be able touse the full power of the vehicle and your average drivers ability to hang onto a vehicle at such speed would be doubtfull, even some Coppers would struggle at 200 K plus, unless your a professionally trained driver and many of these chases end in accidents due to driver inability and the fact that your average car is not designed for such use,
Ihave some fairly hardline idea for drivers who dont want to do the right thing and abuse the privelidge thats been given to them,
A) Drink drivers, 1st offence 6 months suspension 1000 buck fine, 2nd offence 2 year suspension 5000 buck fine, 3 rd offence automatic 2 years jail and your right to drive permanently removed
B)) Hoons, Street racers, drifters, burnout ratbags etc, 1st offence same as drinkers, 2nd same as drinkers, 3rd your car is crushed in front of you and you can keep the remains as a reminder and your no longer a suitable person to hold a licence,
If you dont learn the lessons your never likely too

As for these car chases, if your silly enough to take on the law your at there mercy, in these modern times there perfectly capable of introducing some means to stop a car, Aussie coppers need to be trained in the Yank art of pitting, road spikes etc, they need to beef the cars too your average yank cruiser is a heavy duty piece of gear, enormous engines capable of catching these buggers, time to get tough, stop pussy footing around with these clowns,

They dont have to worry about us old grey nomads in our old buses that wouldnt pull the skin of a banana and would be lucky to even get to the speed limit LOL.
dropbear68
 
Posts: 22
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:00 pm
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Police pursuits

Postby Bus-1809 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 7:09 am

they need to beef the cars too your average yank cruiser is a heavy duty piece of gear, enormous engines capable of catching these buggers, time to get tough, stop pussy footing around with these clowns


4.6L V8 and 3 speed Tranny in a P71 Cruiser? I don't think so. Da local Cabbie gets a better set up for 'ís taxi! He gets a 4spd Box!

I've thought about this topic a few times here and there. There are a few things that could be introduced I reckon...

1. Train the coppers on how to use Stop Sticks and execute the P.I.T

2 A system similar to a speed limiter, but more like the ATP system on Perth's Trains. Streets could be fitted with a transponder at each intersection, then as the car passes over it, it updates the speed for that piece of road and relays it to the unit's display. If the vehicle goes 5km/h over the speed limit, an alarm starts. If the vehicle goes 10km/h over the limit, the brakes are automatically applied to slow the vehicle down. The driver then presses a button to reset the system.

3. Highway Patrol Officers should be patrolling in High Performance 4 Cylinder Vehicles such as Subaru Impreza WRX STi's and Mitsubishi Evolution X's, as seen in the UK. Regular Patrols should be in Volvo Estates with the T5 engine. Places like NT and Patrol's deployed to monitor the Nullabor Plain could have even higher powered cars such as Ford Falcon XR8's and Holden Clubsport's.

4. If a person is caught driving Drunk or Speeding, then it's automatically 1000 hours community work, an 18 month Community Supervision Order and a $1,000 fine. If they are caught again, 18 months imprisonment & automatic loss of license + a $10,000. That person is then also added to a list of drivers who are lawfully unable to re-obtain a drivers license. As far as I am concerned, if you risk peoples lives through Speeding or DWI, then you can walk or catch a bus.
If it's not a ZF, take it back!

Holder of W.A's largest transport sound recording collection. Over 1,100 recordings of vehicles and constantly expanding for the enjoyment of future generations.
User avatar
Bus-1809
 
Posts: 2836
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:40 pm
Has thanked: 49 times
Been thanked: 275 times
Favourite Vehicle: Merc O500R/BCI

Re: Police pursuits

Postby Invictus » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:55 pm

Bus-1809 wrote:1. Train the coppers on how to use Stop Sticks and execute the P.I.T


Most States do use Stop Sticks. Unfortunately they're limited in the situations where they can be used effectively and are not the be-all-end-all that tv shows make them out to be. They're also bloody dangerous to deploy and more than one officer over here has been killed whilst deploying them, many more in the US. As for "PIT" style tactics. Find an insurance company that would allow that over here. Many US agencies have moved away from such tactics due to massive liability payouts etc...and the damage to the police vehicles, which over here are leased and not owned like they used to be (and are in the US).

Bus-1809 wrote:2 A system similar to a speed limiter, but more like the ATP system on Perth's Trains. Streets could be fitted with a transponder at each intersection, then as the car passes over it, it updates the speed for that piece of road and relays it to the unit's display. If the vehicle goes 5km/h over the speed limit, an alarm starts. If the vehicle goes 10km/h over the limit, the brakes are automatically applied to slow the vehicle down. The driver then presses a button to reset the system.

Money for this set up comes from where? Limiters etc are all good in theory but it would be 5 minutes before dodgy mechanics are getting people to line up for work to dodge/circumvent the system. We see this already in the heavy vehicle industry.

Bus-1809 wrote:3. Highway Patrol Officers should be patrolling in High Performance 4 Cylinder Vehicles such as Subaru Impreza WRX STi's and Mitsubishi Evolution X's, as seen in the UK. Regular Patrols should be in Volvo Estates with the T5 engine. Places like NT and Patrol's deployed to monitor the Nullabor Plain could have even higher powered cars such as Ford Falcon XR8's and Holden Clubsport's.


WRX/STi's are very expensive, very small and useless unless they're manual and in tight areas. Volvo 'estates' are also expensive over here unlike in the UK. They also use them over there as they're expected to carry a shed-load of equipment like traffic cones etc for the motorway, which we don't here. WRX's/STi's are worthless on open roads in comparison to what Highway Patrol (everywhere but WA) use, ie: V8 SS, XR8 and XR6 Turbos. Their bucket seats are also terrible for officers who carry firearms etc...which is everyone over here as opposed to the UK.

Bus-1809 wrote:4. If a person is caught driving Drunk or Speeding, then it's automatically 1000 hours community work, an 18 month Community Supervision Order and a $1,000 fine. If they are caught again, 18 months imprisonment & automatic loss of license + a $10,000. That person is then also added to a list of drivers who are lawfully unable to re-obtain a drivers license. As far as I am concerned, if you risk peoples lives through Speeding or DWI, then you can walk or catch a bus.


Any speeding offence? The Courts would melt down after a week....
User avatar
Invictus
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:33 pm
Location: NSW
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time

Re: Police pursuits

Postby eddy » Thu Feb 13, 2014 11:04 am

Saw a police chase after a van made an illegal U turn (illegal in NSW) and the police car ended up crashing into a bus stop outside a school and that was with just a little old van imagine if they were chasing a car that was built to do over 200kph

Here are some interesting stats on police chases in Queensland and I know they are a bit old but are still very interesting http://www.cmc.qld.gov.au/research-and- ... suits.jpdf

Ordinary cars are involved in most chases and I do not think that a 130kph speed limiter would have been tampered with so I say just do it even if just for a trial period like in Canberra.
Parrahub, an extra option in the public transport menu https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model. ... 6dde66e6c7
User avatar
eddy
 
Posts: 2306
Joined: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:18 am
Has thanked: 22 times
Been thanked: 43 times

Previous


  • Advertisement

Return to Discussion - Canberra / ACT

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests