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Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

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Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby simonl » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:58 pm

At the intersection of Riverside Dr, Adelaide Tce and Hay St, i.e. the first intersection coming off the causeway city bound I have just noticed that buses have a red to go straight towards the bus stops even while cars have a green to go straight and a red to go right.

Is there a reason for this that I am missing or did I just see some sort of freak accident?
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby Bus Suggestions » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:51 pm

It is most likely that the reason for that is the merge lanes in front of the roundabout/traffic light intersection. The buses would need a clear 2 left lanes to get in to the stop on time.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby simonl » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:56 pm

Follow on question is how many bus lanes are there in Perth and what length? For comparison, Sydney has 90+km of bus lane: http://web.archive.org/web/201311010654 ... lanes.html

Bus Suggestions wrote:It is most likely that the reason for that is the merge lanes in front of the roundabout/traffic light intersection. The buses would need a clear 2 left lanes to get in to the stop on time.

Hmm, perhaps. I was thinking that the bus stopped at the traffic island but perhaps it doesn't.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby simonl » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:10 pm

Looking some more, I can't see a reason why they would have put the stop at south of the Causeway in the middle of the road. Isn't that less convenient for everyone?
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:22 pm

Yes, the red is so that buses have right of way to get from the intersection across two lanes of traffic to the bus stop without traffic conflicts. There's not enough room to stop again and give way and it's safer to just let buses straight across in a single motion without having to deal with other oncoming traffic.

Not sure what you're referring to regarding the stop in the middle of the road though.

I'm not aware of any stats regarding bus lane length in Perth. But they are very much scattered across the metropolitan area.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby simonl » Sat Jan 07, 2017 10:41 pm

Mr OC Benz wrote:Not sure what you're referring to regarding the stop in the middle of the road though.

At the south end of the Causeway where the Causeway/Albany Hwy/Great Eastern Hwy/Shepperton Rd all meet. There is a big bus stop in between the carriageways rather than on the sides of the road. Why?
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby Off The Rails » Sat Jan 07, 2017 11:41 pm

That would be Victoria Park Transfer Station. And that would be for the same reason above (about 9 routes would need to cross 2 lanes in about 300m). That, plus it is easier for pax to transfer quickly and without many vehicles to try and run your way through.

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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby simonl » Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:00 am

Off The Rails wrote:That would be Victoria Park Transfer Station. And that would be for the same reason above (about 9 routes would need to cross 2 lanes in about 300m). That, plus it is easier for pax to transfer quickly and without many vehicles to try and run your way through.

Cheers! :wink:

"easier for pax to transfer". Well, very, very slightly. Just put in an overbridge and pax can transfer between the sides easily enough. That's the approach that the Brisbane busways take. The Sydney M2 stops have the buses cross the opposing bus traffic so gives an island platform.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:07 am

It'd be to do with providing an uninterrupted bus lane. Brisbane busways are fully segregated from other traffic and the M2 only has buses travelling either way along the motorway. Not really a fair comparison. Victoria Park transfer station is where many bus routes converge and diverge in many different directions. So they need to be funnelled into the transfer station to facilitate quick transfers and continuation of journey. An overpass and having kerbside stops would add a lot more time to this. Cost is also obviously a big factor. The current layout works well most of the time.

Also, if the bus stops and lanes were kerb side, buses would also be contending with on/off ramps onto Canning/Great Eastern Hwy, merge points, access points etc, all of which would conflict with bus flow and affect reliability. Buses are immune to all of this activity (as far as the transfer station at least) by being placed in the centre lanes. Although as they're not fully segregated as you'd of seen, there have been a couple of incidents in the past with cars straying into the bus lane and even trying to do a U-turn! But certainly for the volume of buses passing through, keeping them separated as much as possible from general traffic is ideal.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby simonl » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:13 am

Ok, but I still can't see the trouble with just having the stop on the side of the road beyond the Albany Hwy merge. Was it cheaper doing it this way?

Outbound you would need to have a stop inside the right turn loop. A bit of work but eminently possible.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby Mr OC Benz » Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:53 am

Pretty much everything comes down to cost, so without knowing too much on the history of it, I'd say so. But I think they also prefer having the stops clustered together for compactness and easy transfers. Anyone transferring there is almost certainly going the opposite direction and the stops where they are now means that someone could literally transfer to another service within a minute or two (which regularly happens in practice) as opposed to having to go to complete opposite sides of the road.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby simonl » Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:46 pm

How long ago was the transfer station built?
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby busdriver12 » Tue Jan 10, 2017 1:30 pm

simonl wrote:How long ago was the transfer station built?


I've been looking at my timetable collection which goes back to 2000, and VPTS is mentioned. I am fairly sure it was mid-late 90's as I recall there being some angst by the TWU at the time over the bus lanes down the centre of the causeway. Maybe someone here who finds themselves there could locate the plaque which commemorates it's opening.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby goroundandround » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:14 am

I don't remember the names, but one of the old timer drivers was telling me about the history and politics of the VPTS placement. Emphasis on the politics.

It really can't be any further east, as buses need to go from there to Great Eastern and Canning Highways and using the turn onto Albany Hwy that they do avoids delays at a busy set of lights at Teddington St.

I think it should've been built on Heirisson Island, with lights to allow the GE/Canning buses to use the general traffic lanes, avoiding the silly detouring to get onto GEH, but there might've been other considerations at the time.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby Leyland B21 » Fri Jan 13, 2017 1:11 pm

I rememember prior to VPTS there was a set of stops on Albany Hwy near the Causeway Merge and Stops next to the grass area of the Canning and GE Hwy Exit before the causeway. The Geddes St Services used the Albany Hwy stops along with all Shepperton Rd Services and the former 306 Midland to Perth service and former 310 / 110 Cloverdale service which used burswood rd and teddington st. All other GE services came direct off GE Hwy into the Causeway. Im certain VPTS opened in 1998.

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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby busdriver12 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 1:26 pm

Leyland B21 wrote:I rememember prior to VPTS there was a set of stops on Albany Hwy near the Causeway Merge and Stops next to the grass area of the Canning and GE Hwy Exit before the causeway.


The arrow for Canning Highway Services is still there under the Canning Hwy flyover.

Im certain VPTS opened in 1998.


That sounds about right and fits in with what I remember. I drove from the Causeway and Palmyra up to July 1998 when MetroBus folded (moved to Path Karrinyup) and I do not recall there being any Causeway bus lanes when I drove 106 services at the time.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby Leyland B21 » Sat Jan 14, 2017 2:43 pm

Artics on former route 219 Armadale to Perth when it used to be a frequent sevice. I remember several tight turns for the artics. Shepperton Rd into Teddington Street stood out along with Hay Street into to pre busport terminus of Pier St, Streich Avenue into Denny Avenue Kelmscott.

I was analysing VPTS when i came home in 2014 while getting some photos there. IMO i think that area was always just a changover point so the island works well and the pedestian safety aspect included compared to crossing from Albany Hwy and trying to cross the road at such a busy area to Craig St or Western end causeway for Canning Hwy service.

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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby simonl » Sat Jan 14, 2017 3:12 pm

I did suggest a pedestrian overpass to allow transfers. Not really as convenient for passengers transferring but better in the sense of faster speeds for the 90% of passengers who aren't.

The other question then is why not have right turning cars heading towards Hay St turn and hold before the St Georges Tce to Causeway traffic? I think that would take a phase out of the traffic light cycle.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby busdriver12 » Sun Jan 15, 2017 9:48 pm

simonl wrote:The other question then is why not have right turning cars heading towards Hay St turn and hold before the St Georges Tce to Causeway traffic? I think that would take a phase out of the traffic light cycle.


The way the lights are set up, if a bus reaches the forward sensor (located near the Bus Lane marking approx 50m prior to the lights), the lights will allow buses through onto Adelaide Tce prior to traffic coming off Riverside Dve which is the normal sequence. The bus has to arrive at that sensor before the traffic exiting the Causeway has finished. That allows buses to get an extra change in the sequence (their time is normally after traffic has come off Riverside Dve. This extra change also is at the same time buses come off the Adelaide Tce bus lane onto the Causeway. Having buses go before the right turn sequence off the Causeway is not a good idea from safety and traffic flow perspective.

There are many traffic lights around the city where buses get a priority change over normal traffic flows (the Stirling Station exit is one), whilst there are others that are screaming out for some form of priority (eastbound exit from Murdoch Station is one).
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby jonwil » Mon Jan 16, 2017 4:32 pm

Do buses get a priority exit heading south out of Victoria Park Transfer Station through the traffic lights?
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby busdriver12 » Wed Jan 18, 2017 8:02 am

jonwil wrote:Do buses get a priority exit heading south out of Victoria Park Transfer Station through the traffic lights?


Hard to tell at times and depends where in the cycle the bus arrives at the sensors.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby Herbert » Fri Jan 20, 2017 6:33 pm

Very strange (and confusing) to see reference to the south end of the Causeway; it has always been West End Causeway & East End Causeway. At neither end do buses get any form of priority. If you are running-on or -off, it is quicker to use the non-bus lanes.

If you are travelling East, the timing of the lights is such that you will always get a red light at the West End Causeway - with the very rare exception that you're the 5th bus, you can see there are no pax at the stop & can skip through behind the line of buses that did have to wait for the white B.

Also, usually no more than 4 buses get through each phase due to the placement of the bus stops. They should be moved further west nearer to Fraser Appts, that way buses could trigger the B light after leaving the stop & perhaps up to 8 buses could get through each phase.

If, however, no bus is on the sensor, the B will be skipped that entire phase. That's called bus priority Perth style.

Departing East End Causeway, there is a sensor at both A & B stands, plus at the right of A stand. Again there is no priority. The phasing of the lights is such that when you get the B light, you will get a red at Teddington St, almost without fail.

After 1900hrs the phase changes too: ie instead of being (1) normal Causeway traffic lanes, (2) buses exiting, (3) Gt Eastern Hwy traffic, (4) buses exiting, part (2) of the phase is omitted.

Perhaps in 6 or more years time something might finally change - as finally it has after my ranting about the Bay View Tce timing point in Claremont - but I shan't hold my breath.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby jonwil » Sat Jan 21, 2017 5:08 pm

Herbert wrote:as finally it has after my ranting about the Bay View Tce timing point in Claremont - but I shan't hold my breath.

So they finally moved (or removed) the Circle Route timing point outside the Hungry Jacks?
Or are you talking about a different timing point in Claremont?
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby busdriver12 » Sun Jan 22, 2017 7:32 pm

jonwil wrote:
Herbert wrote:as finally it has after my ranting about the Bay View Tce timing point in Claremont - but I shan't hold my breath.

So they finally moved (or removed) the Circle Route timing point outside the Hungry Jacks?


The timing point for the Circle Route at least will be moved from Bay View Tce to the bus bays opposite MLC.
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Re: Perth Causeway citybound exit for buses

Postby LawBayly » Mon Jan 23, 2017 12:06 am

I believe the government's idea for Victoria Park transfer station was to put light rail into place.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_A ... ess_(Perth)

Honestly I'm not exactly if there was enough space in the station but it doesn't matter since the project died, I'm not too sure if they still have plans for Victoria Park transfer station.

The way I see it, I think it makes more sense to terminate more busses at VPTS and have dedicated busses going into and out of Perth as busses sometimes get delayed heavily and therefore crowded within Perth (occasionally in excess of 10 minutes), multiple 930 busses regularly stack up for this reason.

Not to say the current system doesn't work but I reckon it could be better.
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