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WA Labor promises Metronet, again

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WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby ozi_mister_d » Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:49 pm

Metronet is back on the WA election bandwagon.... any thoughts or comments (without being politically biased, of course)
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Shoudy Chen » Sun Aug 30, 2015 10:05 pm

$2.5 billion for the Metronet Project Is simply massive. I reckon that it is too much for Perth!
Currently we got the new Perth Stadium, Fiona Stanley Hospital, New Gateway WA project, Forrestfield Rail Link, redevelopment of Perth International Airport, new schools and also freeway widening. Perth is simply becoming a bigger city like Seoul!
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby 102 at 1625 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:12 am

Agreed Shoudy Chen, with the mining boom ending and our budget in a massive deficit I'm not sure if it's the right time to be building rail lines here, there and everywhere. That said, if we don't invest in public transport congestion will continue to cost Perth's economy billions.

Sometimes I wonder if our politicians are the best people to make choices regarding public transport infrastructure investment. Sure, they're democratically elected but they have a nasty tendency of choosing infrastructure projects for political reasons. The draft Public Transport for 2031 report (which will probably never be finalised) indicated that MAX light rail was needed by 2020 whilst the airport rail line was needed before 2031, yet Colin Barnett prioritised the airport rail line because he thought that all big cities have rail lines to the airport, so Perth should too, and because the line ran though a few marginal seats.

Now Mark McGowan wants to extend the Joondalup line to Yanchep (needed before 2020), but also to extend the Armadale line to Byford (not needed until after 2031), and extend the Thornlie line to the Mandurah line (also 2031+), however he has no intention of building any of the light rail expected to be needed before 2020, let alone the fairly expansive netword required by 2031.

I think our political leaders need to consider the overall good of our city a little more than they currently seem to before they plan their pathway to power or let themselves be influenced by personal preferences for a particular transport mode.

And I hope neither leader even suggests a rail line to Ellenbrook, because the report says that it will only require BRT.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Mr OC Benz » Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:19 am

Don't take that draft report to heart too much. It was literally out of date not long after it was released due to revised population forecasts.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby TP1462 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 1:34 pm

Labor is only proposing the basics of METRONET based on priorities we do need investment in our rail network now more than ever as our city grows, the entire project would be built as the state
budget allows I believe federal labor has also made a contribution to the project

The first priorities of METRONET include:
Completing the airport line to Forrestfield;
Build rail to Ellenbrook, Morley, Yanchep and Byford;
Commence circle routes linking our suburbs; and
Start fixing dangerous level crossings and upgrade existing train stations.

It also includes grade separation of Oats street, Hamilton street and federal labor has committed $25 million for the grade separation of Denny Ave in Kelmscott, it also includes rolling stock I'm guessing it would be an additional X amount of C series on top of the 50 to be ordered


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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby 102 at 1625 » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:10 pm

Mr OC Benz wrote:Don't take that draft report to heart too much. It was literally out of date not long after it was released due to revised population forecasts.

But even if the timings are out of date I doubt the order in which they were recommended to be delivered is not, and bar the Joondalup line extension to Yanchep all of those rail projects were deemed less urgent than the MAX light rail.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby theenglishguy » Mon Aug 31, 2015 6:55 pm

Have to remember that Mark McGowan is a big supporter of the suburbs (he lives in Rockingham) and believes too much money is being spent on the city. Metronet is a pretty clear indication of this. Regardless of whether MAX light rail is needed or not, he thinks that the suburbs need investment first.

I think this is his biggest failing. He needs to look at whether congestion is the biggest problem in Perth, it isn't the outer suburbs, it's the inner city. Even if he completely built Metronet, I doubt it would have much impact on the traffic along Canning Hwy, Great Eastern, Orrong Rd etc. Metronet is a good idea, but it can't be built in isolation, it needs improved buses and the MAX light rail to support it, as well as development around all stations.

Some of the lines just aren't needed anytime soon. Yanchep is still a small suburb and doesn't need a railway anytime soon (we shouldn't be encouraging development 55km from the CBD either), the North Circle line doesn't service anyone really and has no major destinations along it and the Wanneroo line would be a mess. Cut these out and spend money on MAX instead. Of course I'm no politician, so maybe these ideas wouldn't win him an election...
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby PoweredByCNG » Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:03 pm

In times of bad, this type of government spending is precisely what's needed to kick-start the economy!
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Mr OC Benz » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:32 am

The thing is, none of these ideas proposed with the latest Metronet should actually be priority. Yanchep, Ellenbrook and Byford all don't have populations big enough (for some time) to make rail viable. Let alone as theenglishguy mentions, we shouldn't be encouraging development this far from the City in the first place anyway. While the Forrestfield-Airport Line in some sense is highly political, the line will at least stimulate much needed urban infill to take place in the Forrestfield area and its future expansion to Thornlie.

Circle lines or lines that link up other lines, definitely but they wouldn't be able to occur in the same shape or form as proposed in Metronet in 2013. Extending from Forrestfield to Thornlie and onwards to Cockburn Central will bring big opportunities to improve and encourage public transport use with the alignments travelling through some of the largest employment areas of Perth and having pretty decent residential catchments as well.

But yes, none of this will actually solve congestion that is being generated and occurring much closer to the City. They are just cheap and easy rail solutions which will do little to improve the situation and if anything, the development and extension of rail lines in these outer areas will contribute to choking the rail system in the inner areas due to the failure to invest in rapid transit solutions for the inner urban areas to reduce capacity pressure on the existing rail corridors.

Also pretty sure that like last time again, WA Labor can't get their figures right anyway. $2.5 billion won't even cover everything proposed. It'll cost that much alone if not more to build a line through Morley and onwards to Ellenbrook.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby theenglishguy » Tue Sep 01, 2015 2:24 pm

The $2.5 billion figure probably isn't that far off the mark. Having said that, the system would definitely be sub-optimal if they stuck to that budget.

The whole design relies on building railway in existing rights of way - either next to freight lines or down the middle of highways. It definitely won't produce the best results though, just look at their cheap alternative to Airport Rail link:
http://enewspaper2.thewest.com.au/Repos ... 060700.jpg

Their big map with all the lines on it makes it seem really impressive, but really it is just a circle line with 50kms or so of track (going via Reid Hwy, Tonkin Hwy and the freight line) with spur lines to Ellenbrook and Wanneroo (both on flat undeveloped land) and an extension to Yanchep. The Pinjarra/Byford line won't be built any time soon and was probably just so it didn't look like they were neglecting that part of Perth.

The problem is we don't build shopping centre and towns right next to our freight lines and major highways, so all these railways could be built, but the stations would be no more than park and rides
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby User 11872 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:53 pm

Complete the Airport line? lol.....do they seriously think that's their call? It's done and dusted! So wipe that "promise" off of their list.

Forrestfield to Cockburn.....YES!- Yanchep YES! The rest? pfffftttt. Byford struggles for patronage as it is. One day yes but not for a long time.
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WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby TP1462 » Mon Feb 22, 2016 4:48 pm

Local: Labor plans to move Midland train station
http://abc.net.au/news/7189960

Plans to move Midland station about 600m closer to the new Midland hospital
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby TP1173 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 1:37 am

This is what our city needs train wise:

- Airport Link to Forrestfield.
- Fremantle to Forrestfield. (Need train line to Canning Vale, Thornlie, South Lake, Coogee etc!)
- Perth to Morley (Very urgent! Can't keep going with this crap)

- And maybe extend the above to shut the bloody idiots up out at Ellenbrook.....
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Shoudy Chen » Tue Feb 23, 2016 3:31 pm

Hurry up Mr McGowan! Please fix the Armadale Line as soon as possible. Get this s***ty grade separation onto the Albany Hwy, Fremantle Rd, William St and Armadale Rd!
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby 102 at 1625 » Tue Feb 23, 2016 5:53 pm

Why does the Armadale line need fixing?

Grade separation mainly helps motorists. It shouldn't be a priority.

And why are you asking McGowan to build something you see as "shitty"?
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WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby TP1462 » Wed Feb 24, 2016 11:08 am

The only crossings on the Armadale line that really should be grade separated are Oats street, Archer street, Wharf street, Albany highway, Welshpool road, Main Street, Denny Ave, Armadale road & Third ave as they generate the most traffic
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Merc1107 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:13 am

Only issue I see with this "Metronet" is it appears to link South Lake and Yangebup (and surrounding suburbs) to Fremantle line.
Ordinary, I'd take no issue with this, and presumably they'd run alongside the freight trains as is to cut back costs.

If, however, someone decided to pursue a new railway track, if it ended up needing to be built through the Beeliar wetlands, I think that plan would fall in a heap quite quickly. Cockburn is the only council seemingly against Roe 8 (you can see the posters everywhere round here) - yet may be the ones to best benefit... If a railway had to be built, it seems they'd be against that too.

Just this last month with Airservices Australia testing alternate departure and approach paths have people screaming and yelling about "the noise." "We already have to deal with Jandakot airport and the freight link" they complain. Add a passenger line amongst that and I think the rest of this city might revolt.
Nevermind this was a). a trial, and b). departing aircraft are essentially inaudible due to the requirements outlined by the departure procedure (must be at 10,000ft before making the right turn over Jandakot). Obviously the plan is also to give some reprieve to those folk who call the airport their backyard.

Linking Mandurah line with Thornlie would be prudent sooner - a number of students at Uni (Murdoch) have at least a 40min bus run from that general direction to link the two stations.
Traffic on South St./Ranford Rd. at peak times is horrendous, presumably the other arterial roads aren't any better - being able to drop people straight to a train and have them transfer at Cockburn would at least drop the journey time somewhat, I think, anyway. As I recall, the original plan for the Mandurah line was to connect it with Thornlie. It may be that evaporated when they realised the B-series units (to be used on the Mandurah line) weren't well-suited to the task of frequent stop-start as on these older suburban lines.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby theenglishguy » Thu Mar 10, 2016 2:56 pm

The section between Fremantle and Jandakot would definitely be built next to the freight railway. There'd be nowhere for it to go between Roe 8 and Fremantle - and it's not worth tunnelling.

I think residents would be over the moon if it did happen though - house prices would go up a fair bit and it would make getting around a lot easier. They don't like Jandakot Airport because they put up with noise but get no benefit, and they don't like Roe 8 because it cuts through a wetland - this passenger railway would have neither of those problems.

Honestly apart from the Thornlie to Mandurah Line link, the North/South circular railway doesn't seems like the best idea - patronage doesn't justify building it. It would be far better to put the money towards an underground line to Morley. But then I'm not a politician.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Merc1107 » Thu Mar 10, 2016 3:40 pm

On Jandakot, there may be no perceived benefit - but the fact that the flying school has attracted the likes of China Eastern Airlines to setup means economic benefit from visitors coming and spending on our goods and services.
IIRC - the airport may be the largest of its kind in Australia or maybe the Southern Hemisphere, can't remember which.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Zidanehartono » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:30 pm

Shoudy Chen wrote:$2.5 billion for the Metronet Project Is simply massive. I reckon that it is too much for Perth!
Currently we got the new Perth Stadium, Fiona Stanley Hospital, New Gateway WA project, Forrestfield Rail Link, redevelopment of Perth International Airport, new schools and also freeway widening. Perth is simply becoming a bigger city like Seoul!

Seoul has more than 10 subway lines across the city and I think it is still smaller than Seoul.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Lt. Commander Data » Fri Mar 18, 2016 9:50 pm

Currently Seoul has 10.1 Million people (as of 2014); Perth has 1.8 million (as of 2012). So Seoul is undoubtedly larger, by 8.3 million people. As far as growth goes, Perth has grown by approximately 800 000 people since 2006, whereas Seoul has remained largely the same over that time (and has even gone down a bit). I'm guessing that most of Perth's growth has been due to the mining boom, which has finished now, so either: 1. The unemployment rate in WA will go up or; 2. People who moved to Perth for FIFO (Fly-In, Fly-Out) work will move elsewhere to where more jobs are.

A better comparison to Perth's population would be Brisbane or Sapporo (Japan). San Antonio, TX, USA would even be valid, as 10 years ago it had a similar population to Perth (just under 1.3 million), and it now has 1.4 million. Dallas (TX) also has a similar population to San Antonio (and therefore Perth).

I am unaware of public transport in these cities, just a quck Google search for the populations.

Source: Wikipedia
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby rondo22 » Tue Mar 22, 2016 5:09 pm

Just a comment about the way cities count their populations around the world.

The city centers of those cities may be comparable to Perth, however that would be like Perth within the Reid/Roe loop. If you actually look at the METRO population of the cities you've discussed:

Dallas: 7 million
San Antonio: 2.5 mil
Seoul: 26 million

That's a more comparable figure when comparing to Perth's ~2 million. You can't really compare Dallas to Perth at all.

Anyway the points made in this thread are bang on. You can't justify spending billions connecting these outer suburbs until a rail line up the central northern corridor is complete. Whether that's light or heavy rail, it's definitely priority one. These circular movements can be catered for by buses.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Lt. Commander Data » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:58 pm

rondo22 wrote:Just a comment about the way cities count their populations around the world.

The city centers of those cities may be comparable to Perth, however that would be like Perth within the Reid/Roe loop. If you actually look at the METRO population of the cities you've discussed:

Dallas: 7 million
San Antonio: 2.5 mil
Seoul: 26 million

That's a more comparable figure when comparing to Perth's ~2 million. You can't really compare Dallas to Perth at all.

Anyway the points made in this thread are bang on. You can't justify spending billions connecting these outer suburbs until a rail line up the central northern corridor is complete. Whether that's light or heavy rail, it's definitely priority one. These circular movements can be catered for by buses.


Thanks, I wasn't aware of that. like I said I just looked it up of Wikipedia (Know as one of the most reliable sources on the internet...Oh, wait...), so didn't get a detailed response like that. Strange how Australia does it one way and the rest of the world does it another- like cricket scoring. I guess its because we have lower population levels.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Shoudy Chen » Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:04 pm

Lets compare Perth with Vancouver. Vancouver has a similar population (2.202 million) to Perth and has somewhat a good public transport system. However, the traffic congestion is much worse than Perth. You know, Perth really needs to come up with ideas rather than waffling on about the Metronet.
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Re: WA Labor promises Metronet, again

Postby Mr OC Benz » Wed Mar 23, 2016 4:24 pm

Why are we even doing comparisons between cities? Especially if we're not even comparing apples with apples, barely even apples with oranges!

Let's just keep the thread specific to the Metronet plan. If you wish to use other cities as examples to the ideas/plans of this proposal, then at least provide relevant substance to contribute to this thread.
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