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Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Leyland B21 » Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:20 pm

Edited. Wrote it late last night. Cheers
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby User 11872 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 9:09 pm

Not a bad at all concept CAT and certainly in the right direction. Maybe it is seasonal....is that in itself bad? NO, the 456/458 and the new 415 are classic examples of 'recent' PT failures IMO (not entirely, but not well researched)
I'll whack some similar XXX up soon - it will no doubt be rejected, dejected, given "spin" and will not be a part of the long-term "vision" that frankly, I have considered 'not too real-world' much of the time.
I'm not knocking the PTA, but when we plebs suggest something, well, we're plebs!
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby laptop15 » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:33 pm

The 456/8 and 415 are not failures at all.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:49 pm

I have to admit ever since th introduction of the 456 route, is hasn't been utilized well, the 458 has its up and downs depending on the day, weather, season etc.

As for the 415, haven't looked into it too much, but I think this route will definitely prove popular once it gets going for a few months.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby BusSpotter97 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:25 am

I don't know about the 415 but I live/d very close to the 456/458 and can say the following

458- Can fluctuate depending on visitors to beaches but there is more potential for it to be used. Weekday services are useful and it is well used on Whitfords Ave north of the marina, replacing the 460 on weekends.

456- They had some route planning failures at the start and it is very seasonal BUT i have often seen 20 PAX getting off a bus at the marina at a time. The marina is currently under huge parking problems on weekends and TP and Marina management should work together to increase publicity of the service. It might even be worth re-branding it to the Marina CAT and offering it as a free service, seeing as little revenue will be lost as most PAX connect at Gwd.

Also, how is the patronage on the new 428, 450 and 467
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby TP-2051 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:27 am

plant-ender wrote:Not a bad at all concept CAT and certainly in the right direction. Maybe it is seasonal....is that in itself bad? NO, the 456/458 and the new 415 are classic examples of 'recent' PT failures IMO (not entirely, but not well researched)
I'll whack some similar XXX up soon - it will no doubt be rejected, dejected, given "spin" and will not be a part of the long-term "vision" that frankly, I have considered 'not too real-world' much of the time.
I'm not knocking the PTA, but when we plebs suggest something, well, we're plebs!


Just wait to the school days . I'm sure plenty of Balcatta Students will use 415 from Mirrabooka to BHS. Also 415 is technically faster than 371 in off peak times with 18-25 minutes vs 25 minutes (371). I've tried this route a couple of times and it is very effective allows me to go to Mirrabooka from Canning Bridge via the Rail Line. I don't see this as a failure.

BusSpotter97 wrote: Also, how is the patronage on the new 428, 450 and 467


450- The patronage is great alot of passengers using this route to the city via Train. (correct me if i'm wrong)

The new 451 Kingsway to Greenwood is a Joke hardly no one using it!
Now the 451 in my opinion is a failure!

As for the other routes of 428 and 467 I don't know about the patronage.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby BusSpotter97 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:27 pm

I didn't really see the point in the 451, unless Kingsway wants a bus to the train just like Whitfords and Karrinyup have

One thing I don't understand is the PTA's backflip on Greenwood. First saying the 450 can't go there, then changing their minds.

Also, why don't you extend the 450 into Landsdale via the current 352/376 route and axe the 352 in Landsdale.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby route171 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:27 pm

BusSpotter97 wrote:I live/d very close to the 456/458 and can say the following
458- Can fluctuate depending on visitors to beaches but there is more potential for it to be used.
456- They had some route planning failures at the start ... TP and Marina management should work together to increase publicity of the service.


I agree. The 458/456 is and were under utilized, from the beginning. No different to its predecessors, the 582/592.

TP-2051 wrote:Just wait to the school days . I'm sure plenty of Balcatta Students will use 415 from Mirrabooka to BHS. Also 415 is technically faster than 371 in off peak times with 18-25 minutes vs 25 minutes (371). I've tried this route a couple of times and it is very effective allows me to go to Mirrabooka from Canning Bridge via the Rail Line. I don't see this as a failure.


Then again, the 415 is really a social service - connecting local/regional shopping/transport hubs in addition to serving Balcatta SHS (as you pointed out)

Thanks to TP 2051 for pointing out the fact the route number should be 415 instead of 451.
Last edited by route171 on Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby TP-2051 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:42 pm

route171 wrote:Then again, the 451 is really a social service - connecting local/regional shopping/transport hubs in addition to serving Balcatta SHS (as you pointed out)


Don't you meant 415 instead of 451 route171. 451 doesn't go to Balcatta SHS
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby route171 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:02 pm

Ah yes, thanks for the correction. Post amended.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Thu Apr 19, 2012 8:44 pm

BusSpotter97 wrote:Also, why don't you extend the 450 into Landsdale via the current 352/376 route and axe the 352 in Landsdale.

Lack of funding. Simple, the 352 shouldn't and won't go as its patronage is still good.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby User 11872 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:04 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Where have you hornets and bullants been? What a stir and exactly the response I anticipated!

Nothing like bringing a thread back to life.

Chips, all of your points are very valid - glad you're still sucking in some oxygen.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:18 pm

Let's also not forget the 451 is a fairly new route and will require a few months for patronage to grow... I've heard it is growing slowly, but whether it is sustainable is another question...
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby wayfarer » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:30 pm

Have 111's running all day T and F .. the 106 really picks up most of it's clientele in the freo-melville-applecross area to justify it anyway. Well my salve is it's purely for selfish reasons too.. Would save me from having to catch a 881/940/160 etc . from the busport and then change off at canning bridge to a soon-to-arrive 106 that probably saves me 15-20 minutes on a good day to get home to East Freo.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby laptop15 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:42 pm

BusSpotter97 wrote:I didn't really see the point in the 451, unless Kingsway wants a bus to the train just like Whitfords and Karrinyup have

One thing I don't understand is the PTA's backflip on Greenwood. First saying the 450 can't go there, then changing their minds.

Also, why don't you extend the 450 into Landsdale via the current 352/376 route and axe the 352 in Landsdale.


Say you live around the Greenwood area how would you get to Kingsway for work or shopping or lunch etc? Catch the train to Warwick then the 450? that takes to long for the people along Hepburn ave, this way the 451 gives them a direct route. Also think about this if you live close to Greenwood (along Hepburn ave) what do you think will be quicker a bus direct to Greenwood or up and down along a 445/6/7 to Warwick/Whitfords? As for the backflip when each 451 gets to Greenwood it becames the bus back as there is no peak flow direction they both get 20min both ways both peak times, unlike the 450. Plus having the 450 go to Warwick gives options to go to the movies/shops/work at Warwick. I asked TP about why not extending the 450 to Landsdale they said because it would continue into the new estates in the future.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby BusSpotter97 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 1:47 am

Here is my New Madeley-Darch-Lansdale proposal- Part 1.

Affects Routes 352, 376 and 450. (Routes 451 and 372 will be affected in Part 2).

Route 352-Withdrawn and replaced by route 452 (West) and 450 (East)

Route 376-Frequenices amended to co-ordinate with R450 to provide a clearer service to Lansdale residents. See Below.

Route 450- From current terminus via Rayner Dr, then via The Broadview and current 376 route to the current 376 terminus at Warradale Tce / Rockdale Pass

Frequencies 376/450

R376 R450 On Common Sector
Peak 15 Min 15-20Min 7.5-10 Min
Off-Peak 30 Min 30 Min 15 Min (May seem a bit too much but it is needed along the other corridors and a 15min frequency will attract people to use the bus to go shopping in the city for example.)

Evenings-
/Sat/Sun 60 Min 60 Min 30 Min (If patronage is good, Saturdays to be upgraded to Off-Peak frequency)




Route 452- New Route serving Madeley and Darch.

From Whitfords Stn R Whitfords Ave, R Waneroo Rd, L Gangara Dr, R Susan Rd, L Russel Rd, L Hursthill St, R Olivedale Rd, R Regency Ave, L Russel Rd, R Hartman Dr, L Westport Pde, L Goldsmith Way, -> Belvoir Pky, R Ashdale Bvd, L Monagahn Cr, R Monagahn Cr to a terminus opposite Cork Lnk.

Route 452
Operator-Veolia Transdev Wangara/Joondalup
Fully Accessible Run

Peak-20 Mins ( Extra runs form 10 Minute frequency between 7:30 and 8:00)
Off-Peak/Sat- 30 Mins
Evening/Sunday-60 Min



See map below

Blue-452
Turquoise- 450 Extension
Red- No longer served road

http://i.imgur.com/Hie2v.jpg
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby laptop15 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:03 am

Looks good but what I would do is extend the 452 to connect with the 372 and make one route - either 452 or 372 gives people in Darch an option to get to Mirrabooka and people along the 372 an option north. And while your at it merge the 451 and 365 for the same reason as above.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby BusSpotter97 » Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:42 am

I was going to change the 372 to serve north Marangaroo and extend the 451 service to serve areas between Hepburn and Kingsway, including the new estates to the south and east of Landsdale but now I think I'll extend the 372 service up Evandale and re-number it 452.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Off The Rails » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:50 pm

Could a outer Circle Route work?
Major stops would be ;
1. Fremantle
2. Mandurah
3. Armadale
4. Midland
5. Joondalup

Times: 15 mins Peak ,30 mins Offpeak Mon-Fri, Weekends 30 mins

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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:58 pm

No not to that extent.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby BusSpotter97 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 12:52 am

Not to Mandurah and Armadale.

Freo-Cockburn-Cannington-Bassandeen-Morley-Mirabooka-Whitfords-Cottesloe-Freo could possibly work but I think a inner circle is more needed and the resources are better used for other things anyway.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Sat Apr 21, 2012 1:02 am

I once had my own idea/thought of an outer circle. From Fremantle being base, via Murdoch, Thornlie, Cannington, Perth Airport, Bayswater, Morley, Mirrabooka, Warwick, Karrinyup, Scarborough, City Beach, Cottesloe to Fremantle. There are really a lot of things to consider though and it does have hits pros, but it also has its cons. The route would follow some of the current circle as well as reaching more outer from the current circle route.

As for an inner circle, with the landscape and setting of Perth, it'd be difficult for one without avoiding the city and it's chaos. I'd much rather that Knowledge Arch light rail proposal from UWA to Curtin via Perth and Victoria Park.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:14 pm

BusSpotter97 wrote:Blue-452
Turquoise- 450 Extension
Red- No longer served road

http://i.imgur.com/Hie2v.jpg

After having a closer look, I like the idea of Darch modification, however my idea would be to combine the 372 and your proposed 452/352 together and run the service from Mirrabooka to Whitfords via Darch, not only providing another crosstown link, but also giving more options for residents in between. I'd then extend the 450 to Warrahdale Tce, however via the opposite end so 90% of the time, buses do not need to chuck a u-turn. Then basically the 450 and 376 can operate combined so that a 376F would change into a 450T etc.... Then give both routes to one operator, probably Path as the focus of this is on Landsdale which lies within Path's boundary. It would use resources more efficiency having it with the one operator.

So basically we'd end up with modified routes 372 (Whitfords to Mirrabooka) and 450 (extension via east Warrahdale Tce)

If it wasn't for the fact Greenwood wasn't designed as a bus interchange, I'd have all buses extend from Kingsway, but because they're not, this is my idea, to extend the 365 from Kingsway to Greenwood and replace that 451. It'd make better use of what may end up as a not so utilized route. Being able to operate a service even without anyone on most of the time is better than any sort of dead running.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby User 11872 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:19 pm

wayfarer wrote:Have 111's running all day T and F .. the 106 really picks up most of it's clientele in the freo-melville-applecross area to justify it anyway. Well my salve is it's purely for selfish reasons too.. Would save me from having to catch a 881/940/160 etc . from the busport and then change off at canning bridge to a soon-to-arrive 106 that probably saves me 15-20 minutes on a good day to get home to East Freo.



Agreed! Would alleviate pressure from the train and provide a lengthier duration of convenience - perfect for attracting and retaining new and existing passengers.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby User 11872 » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:46 pm

Amazing, relatively, what is considered a failure on a bus as opposed to a train. Only 300 people used the 0400 Friday train over all lines, an average of 50-60 on each line....HARDLY A FAILURE!
How many services run around the city and suburbs with less than 10 passengers at any given time between 1900 and 2400 hrs on a daily basis?

And why not charge for it to help make it more viable? I don't believe it is unreasonable when you consider the alternative is an expensive taxi fare (flag fall alone more expensive than a train ticket).
Drive past the Murray St entrance to Perth Underground (and Esplanade) and see how many stragglers are waiting for the gates to open for the first train to Mandurah. There are a lot so it is justified and should come under the CSO that currently provides services outside "peak" conditions.

Adelaide, smaller than Perth, has a better all-night service.

I simply think that trains should run at 0100, 0200, 0300, 0400 & 0500, and in BOTH directions. Buswell's weak answer that they are trying to get people out of the city and not in is simply BS. People live in the city or near to it as well and need to return from Fremantle etc.
We are really so backward with public transport in this place. We are "booming" at a net migration rate of around 800-1000 people per week and Transperth don't want to get their trains dirty.
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