Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby UQB709 » Fri Sep 02, 2011 1:32 pm

Have to disagree there Mr i_c regarding the 98/99.

I think high, long route numbers make a network look more complicated to the casual or infrequent user. Adelaide takes this to the ultimate extreme with route numbers which include various mixtures of numbers and letters - ridiculous combinations which look more like password combinations than an easy way to get around (taking just one timetable at random, the route numbers include J1A, J1C, J1X, J2, J2A, J2X and 162). I'm in favour of high quality, frequent trunk routes having low route numbers - certainly no more than two digits.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby insert_coin » Fri Sep 02, 2011 5:17 pm

Funny though, Adelaide patronage has traditionally always been better than Perth and much better utilised. We're booming...so we're experiencing a bit of an unnatural bursting at the seams in quite a few areas.
People aren't stupid!!! I keep trying to say this. They know what they have to do. There are many harder things in life than trying to catch a bus that has more than 2 digits. If it weren't so, then the (here in Perth) 100-101, 102, 106, 111, 354, 400-08, 501, 507, 558, 88x series, Rail-replacements, 920, 940 - you get the drift I'm sure - wouldn't carry hardly a soul, yet that is hardly the case.....and these are all high profile services. What next, destinations that only show suburbs with 2 letters or less???? let me see, NP, SP, M ("sorry driver, are you going to Midland, Mandurah, Morley or Manning?"). Come on, the more info - provided it's not displayed in a confusing manner - the better.
As for the casual user....would this be the hardest thing in their life to deal with? Cater for the masses, and the others will follow suit if they wish.

And what about Sydney UQB709? The routes are prefixed with either E, L, M or X....and that is just on a route that contains many other routes that utilise the same method. Have a good look at Anzac Rd or Military Rd services....and guess what.....THEY COPE a lot better than here....and that is from experience. Treat people like morons by continually taking away their ability to decipher things and you'll end up with an ever dumbed-down descension into even further idiocy...just as is happening in the education system.
I think it's always the same scenario, from the top right down (Govts', planners). They want patronage to increase yet they patronise the masses. Or is it vice versa?
Sorry old chump, but I think you're clinging to old ideolgy here.
What next....core times? :lol:
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby UQB709 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 12:52 am

LMAO Mr i_c - you knew that line about core times would be an insult I couldn't let pass.... ;)

I think we'll have to agree to disagree here. I think where you are a little off track is in calling me old school on this issue though - quite to the contrary, I'd call going nuts with a range of route numbers which fit someone's personal mathematical dreams the old school train of thought...

I also don't consider making PT easier to use as treating passengers like idiots at all - more a question of common sense and marketing. Its not the existing passengers that I think about - its the ones who haven't even thought of using us that I'm considering. I've got nothing against using E for Express for example- in fact it makes a lot more sense than the MTT's trend to numbering expresses with numbers ending in 66.

Having said all that, to be honest, route numbers, aside from an interest in them purely from a historical perspective, don't really get me going - I've certainly got no religious fervour on it unlike some people around :P
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby insert_coin » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:59 am

Insult??? so it was you, in the late 70s who introduced the core times in the first place heh? Not a bad effort for a 2-3 year old! :D
Now you know I wouldn't insult you old chump......I respect your opinions, just love arguing :twisted:

Seriously, public transport is already relatively easy to use. Route numbers with letter-letter-number combinations....how hard can it be? Most if not all of us grapple with multiple passwords and pin numbers that use far greater combinations of mixed symbols, numbers and letters (upper and lower case thrown in for good measure) for a multitude of things on a daily basis - the world has progressed. The hard part is making PT attractive and convenient.
Ouch, you got me with the express 6 suffix bit..... can't deny that - I grew up with that but it wouldn't influence my planning sensibilities today in the least. I think, tbh, a lot of the people on here have an affinity for certain numbers simply because they grew up catching certain runs - the evidence is all around. But no, like you, I'm not too sentimental about it other than from an historic point of view. I'd rather see route number rationalisations - that is more relevant and current; eg 500 series SSR, 400 NSR etc. It looks neater and makes the overall communication clearer....but that actually IS my personal preference and not due to any passenger concerns. As I said, they'll figure it out....they've got far too many other more difficult considerations to make than deciphering grade one maths.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby UQB709 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 11:10 am

I guess my point is that simple logic works best, which doesn't mean making it too simple, just quickly apparent to the casual user. Basically you want something which is intuitive; more iPad than DOS. I had an experience recently in Brisbane, where I was waiting for a bus at a busway station; the route numbering convention, if there was one, was not immediately apparent, making it harder to work out which of the approaching services I should board- and there were a lot of routes!

We probably are pretty much in furious agreement anyway.... :) Even the x66 scheme had it's benefits, more for staff than anyone else though I suspect.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby insert_coin » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:59 pm

Yeah, I clung to that "6" thing right up until recently for some apparently strange reason - but fresh blood convinced me of its irrelevance, so that was a positive.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Mon Sep 19, 2011 8:35 pm

Was told by a relative that apparantly Carbridge are now providing free shuttle access between the Perth International Airport and Domestic Airport where you can then hop on a 37 service. The bus stops conveniently right in front of the Transperth bus stand at the Domestic Airport.

Previously it costed $8 on the Inter-terminal transfer and that was only available for transferring passengers. This has now extended to those who wish to catch the Transperth 37 service from the Domestic Terminal. I don't know the full story, but I believe this is the case now. They only recently moved the Transperth stand for the 37 service from the far end of Terminal 3 to Terminal 2 and right next to the other buses.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby insert_coin » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:15 pm

Well noted. About time too that the TP service was given a higher status/prominence - though all things considered you can't blame the airport for pushing their "connect" brand hard - it's lucrative.
We (all of us - come out designers) could develop a TP business/high profile plan to get regular services into the airport - something with a clear cut branding that will grow and stick over time.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:20 pm

At a Public Meeting for Public Transport in Perth undertaken privately by some University, the biggest response from the public was about the lack of a decent and adequate public bus service to the Domestic and International Terminal. It is certainly a hot topic around the place which may of helped to influence plans.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby jonwil » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:50 pm

Given that there is clearly a demand for it, I dont see why they dont reinstate the direct route to the airport. Unless its "political" and Transperth/State Govt don't want to annoy the airport mob by competing too much with the shuttle services...
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby laptop15 » Mon Sep 19, 2011 10:56 pm

Annoy them? That means getting rid of competition which is against what the government is striving for. Its still federal land, who cares what the airport says? Im pretty sure it was roadworks/no space for TP buses that TP stoped the 36 and 40 going there. Also note the 37 recently had a tt change (Sunday upgrade) so it may be a while before any other changes?
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby route171 » Thu Sep 22, 2011 7:00 pm

Route 37 takes the most indirect route to the Domestic Airport..
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby jonwil » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:07 pm

I got a question for all the route boffins and thinkers around here, if you were in charge and didn't have to consider politics, are there any routes, stops, services, or otherwise that you would completely delete? I dont mean delete and replace with something new, I mean delete because (in your opinion) they just cant be justified (and are likely only kept around for political reasons)
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby route171 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:15 pm

^^Think route 205. Most if not all the area traversed is currently served by existing routes at a better frequency.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby insert_coin » Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:50 pm

^^^can't argue with that - it's a full-on "lobbied" waste of money.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby jonwil » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:17 pm

ok, so who is the group lobbying to keep the 205 and why do they want it?
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby route171 » Mon Nov 28, 2011 9:25 pm

The Liberal-National government are. When introduced in 2009 Riverton MLA Mike Nahan said "the new bus route would make a major difference to local people’s lives." The route was to compensate for the loss of pre-SSR route 155 which provided direct access to Booragoon Garden City to and from the Herald Avenue Senior Citizens Centre. It was to be trialled for 12 months but has been continuing to operate since its introduction. Routes 508, 509, 170, 501 already travel most of the area covered by the 205 at a better frequency.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby jonwil » Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:06 pm

What I dont get is why people who dont use a bus route will still complain loudly if you try to take it away.

The only people who should have the right to complain about the removal of a bus route are those people who use it (and use it on a regular basis, not once in a blue moon) or people (e.g. local member) who are speaking up on behalf of the regular users of the service.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby tbc1983 » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:11 am

jonwil wrote:What I dont get is why people who dont use a bus route will still complain loudly if you try to take it away.


The former 529 rings a bell. So many people petitioned it (I'm guessing pensioners, mainly), but when the service was introduced as a trial, at least 3/4 of the petitioners never used it (from observation). Even the local J.A.T., rag here tried to rubbish the PTA and the local, private operator, saying non-sensical BS like how the drivers failed to pick up Armadale-bound passengers at Cockburn Central station, most probably because it was the Cockburn shops extension service; how the bus would stop for no reason at certain bus stops along the way as if to saboutage the service (more than likely just timed stops) and they (the paper) would always have a photograph of some people (usually with Tony Buti) waiting for the 529 outside the Armadale TAB, complaining about the service; well, they bloody would, since it turned off before that stop.

Each time the PTA were to give a hint about the service being withdrawn, the "loyal" 529 users would be up in arms saying that the PTA didn't give the bus route an enough chance and kept on blaming the Liberal government, blah, blah; it was the biggest load of horse turd I had ever seen and I think this happened about twice???

Finally it was withdrawn and overnight, the 519 was introduced. The word goes that the PTA originally wanted to introduce the 519 service from the start, but some F.P. o S. living locally wanted a bus service Co'burn so he/she could do their shopping, ra, ra, ra, hence the "trial" and I am inclined to believe that.

Let's face it, there is nothing there, along Forrest Rd, west of the Nicholson Rd intersection. It's quite a fast truck route and having a bus darting in and out of bus stops a long the way seems a bit dodgey, particularly since not all of the road is dual carriageway. I seriously commend the PTA for having an attempt at the 529 and I commend them even more for introducing the 519; it is a nice bus route that actually makes sense! Thank you! :)


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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby 900 series » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:42 pm

jonwil wrote:What I dont get is why people who dont use a bus route will still complain loudly if you try to take it away.


tbc1983 wrote:Even the local J.A.T., rag here tried to rubbish the PTA and the local, private operator, saying non-sensical BS like how the drivers failed to pick up Armadale-bound passengers at Cockburn Central station, most probably because it was the Cockburn shops extension service; how the bus would stop for no reason at certain bus stops along the way as if to saboutage the service (more than likely just timed stops) and they (the paper) would always have a photograph of some people (usually with Tony Buti) waiting for the 529 outside the Armadale TAB, complaining about the service; well, they bloody would, since it turned off before that stop.


Off-topic a bit, but my experience shows that people commenting on news articles - and often the articles themselves - don't have a clue about public transport anyway. I've seen such gems this year as "Why don't they run a train from Cockburn to Greenwood!" and my personal favourite, an article that equated 2 zones in Perth with 2 Zones in Brisbane and 2 Sections in Adelaide.

Back on topic, I'd probably nominate the 35 for deletion, or at least a frequency trim. A three-kilometre route serving a total of 4 stops each way (including terminii)... I'll admit that I haven't been able to use it, but on paper it looks fairly toothless. How many people actually use it? And of those people, how many are boarding at the stops that aren't just one road-cross away from the 30/31?

And with the 529, I took a trip back in January expecting it to go away soon - suffice to say that no-one else got on for the entire Armadale to Cockburn Central stretch. Money straight down the drain. And the 205, don't get me started... It's nothing but an ad for removing politics from service planning in my opinion (the merits or lack thereof of this is a whole new debate that I won't get into here.) Better use the route kilometres somewhere where they're needed.

PS J.A.T??? sorry but I'm not brilliant with acronyms... could someone please explain...
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:48 pm

There are a number of people that use the 35 service. Wouldn't say it is frequently used, but that stretch of Mill Point Rd does get passengers. Basically runs on the basis like the 334/336/337/340 routes. They are short routes which are there to serve small areas cut out from the main line. I'd be expecting anywhere between 2-8 people during the day, and probably around 6-12 during peak periods, possibly more. One time there were about 22 people on the afternoon 340F!!!
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby insert_coin » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:29 pm

Agent83 - brilliant synoptical analysis (wank...I know) - but well put and spot on!
The 519 is a great initiative and it's simply better than the 529. I bet the second it's withdrawn (if - and it shouldn't be) there'll be a full-scale radio talk-back war and a LOUD lobbying element to boot, as with the 155/205.

Cat - the 35 has some very "concentrated" patronage at times, but I agree....the "system" will show up what and where its deficiencies are and exactly what resources are needed, and when. There's a hell of a lot of density on that little stretch - you'd be surprised at times of the patronage, yet at other times it is way over-serviced! I can foresee a reduction at certain times on the cards, though the odd evening deviation (34) wouldn't hurt either.

jonwil - that's politics....there's very LITTLE, if any, understanding of anything in depth. The PTA actually do a bloody good job!
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby 900 series » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:32 pm

Mr OC Benz wrote:There are a number of people that use the 35 service. Wouldn't say it is frequently used, but that stretch of Mill Point Rd does get passengers. Basically runs on the basis like the 334/336/337/340 routes. They are short routes which are there to serve small areas cut out from the main line. I'd be expecting anywhere between 2-8 people during the day, and probably around 6-12 during peak periods, possibly more.


With passenger numbers like that, then yes the route itself can be kept, though I've still got my doubts about it being half-hourly on Saturday when more substantial routes get away with worse. (The way I see it, if it's underused then cut back to every hour, if it's well used then improve other services to match - maybe Saturday services on the 340 or Ellenbrook buses on a Sunday - other than the 955.) I guess a major redeeming feature is that the service can be run using just one, maybe two buses outside of peak hour, so the 'cost' side of the cost-benefit ratio is rather small.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby insert_coin » Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:41 pm

It will more than likely be pruned back to a 60 minute service (weekends) - there's a lot of dead-running toward the Old Mill terminus. It'd be preferred to have a 35 "tacked" on to a terminating Busport service that would "run" and "return" and go back into regular service...why run empty to this terminus (at times?)
As for numbers...in the morning peak, those 3 pick-up stops will grab between them approximately 60+ passengers per hour - NOT insignificant by any measure. Other times....questionable.
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Re: Bus Routes - What would you do if you were in charge?

Postby Mr OC Benz » Tue Nov 29, 2011 9:09 pm

Only one bus is required to during the day to do the 35's and generally it is all put onto one shift or two. Since the changes are only fairly recent, I think it is unfair to judge the patronage and sustainability of the route for at least a few more months.
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