Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Adelaide / South Australia Transport Discussion
jibb
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Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »


T3331
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by T3331 »

I Don't blame the Liberal party here

Skexis
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Skexis »

I reckon Knoll is out of his depth.

TT
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by TT »

Does he realise how big the negative backlash is to his proposals? Or does he think he's just going to steamroller things through?

jibb
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

He is going to have to backdown or make major compromises-if he doesn't and pushes it through without any changes, he might be going back to work at Barossa Fine Foods-it could easily cost the current Government the election come 2022,if some of their members lose their seats because of this.

Eurostar
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Eurostar »

The State Government is elected to serve and Govern for all of South Australia, I can't see many bus route improvements that he is proposing that will win votes.

Pat Conlon and transport ministers after him may of not been perfect but they improvised when needed and fixed the system including,...

Public Transport Plan for Adelaide including new public transit vehicles, tramline extensions, trainline extensions (Seaford). The tramline extensions was so popular that Citadis trams had to be bought quickly. I also recall when fuel prices were high buses were leased/bought from interstate.

Road Projects including Northern Expressway, South Road Superway, Port River Expressway, Gallipoli Underpass, tram overpass at Black Forest, Southern Expressway Duplication.

If I were Stephen Knoll I would consider bringing back some bus services that were recently cut i.e. 224/224F full route running between City and Elizabeth.

Personally I think when it comes to Go Zones some could be altered or improved, also change the name to something like High Frequency Zone. Zones Id propose
..

- Main North Road changed to 10/30 minute frequency
- OBahn changed to 10/30 minute frquency
- South Road change to 10/30 minute frequency
- Extending Glen Osmond Road zone to Crafers also putting a digital bus stop at key locations like Hahndorf and Stirling
Next station is Victoria Square. Change here for all trains.

hillsbus
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by hillsbus »

Eurostar wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:54 am
The State Government is elected to serve and Govern for all of South Australia, I can't see many bus route improvements that he is proposing that will win votes.

Pat Conlon and transport ministers after him may of not been perfect but they improvised when needed and fixed the system including,...

Public Transport Plan for Adelaide including new public transit vehicles, tramline extensions, trainline extensions (Seaford). The tramline extensions was so popular that Citadis trams had to be bought quickly. I also recall when fuel prices were high buses were leased/bought from interstate.

Road Projects including Northern Expressway, South Road Superway, Port River Expressway, Gallipoli Underpass, tram overpass at Black Forest, Southern Expressway Duplication.

If I were Stephen Knoll I would consider bringing back some bus services that were recently cut i.e. 224/224F full route running between City and Elizabeth.

Personally I think when it comes to Go Zones some could be altered or improved, also change the name to something like High Frequency Zone. Zones Id propose
..

- Main North Road changed to 10/30 minute frequency
- OBahn changed to 10/30 minute frquency
- South Road change to 10/30 minute frequency
- Extending Glen Osmond Road zone to Crafers also putting a digital bus stop at key locations like Hahndorf and Stirling
All very good points EuroStar

I think there used to be something known as a High Frequency 10 minute Go Zone which was along Payneham Rd?

Also at present the O-Bahn to TTP is unofficially an Ultra High Frequency Go Zone - weekdays every 5 minutes outside of peak, Saturdays every 6 minutes, Sundays/Public Holidays every 7.5 minutes and night time every 10 minutes

Route 506
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Route 506 »

Eurostar wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:54 am
The State Government is elected to serve and Govern for all of South Australia, I can't see many bus route improvements that he is proposing that will win votes.

Pat Conlon and transport ministers after him may of not been perfect but they improvised when needed and fixed the system including,...

Public Transport Plan for Adelaide including new public transit vehicles, tramline extensions, trainline extensions (Seaford). The tramline extensions was so popular that Citadis trams had to be bought quickly. I also recall when fuel prices were high buses were leased/bought from interstate.

Road Projects including Northern Expressway, South Road Superway, Port River Expressway, Gallipoli Underpass, tram overpass at Black Forest, Southern Expressway Duplication.

If I were Stephen Knoll I would consider bringing back some bus services that were recently cut i.e. 224/224F full route running between City and Elizabeth.

Personally I think when it comes to Go Zones some could be altered or improved, also change the name to something like High Frequency Zone. Zones Id propose
..

- Main North Road changed to 10/30 minute frequency
- OBahn changed to 10/30 minute frquency
- South Road change to 10/30 minute frequency
- Extending Glen Osmond Road zone to Crafers also putting a digital bus stop at key locations like Hahndorf and Stirling
Good points here Eurostar. I definitely agree that Main North Road South Road need to remain a high frequency (ie 20 mins) particularly on Weekends (South Road for Sunday especially). Like the idea of extending the Glen Ormond Road Go Zone although Hills services on Sunday should run to a Saturday timetable as the demand would be there I think.
If Knoll wants any chance to somewhat survive this I think he really needs to keep a service via Galway Avenue and would be wise to look at other areas that have been cut out such as Walkley Heights (RM Williams Drive), Montague Farm, Pooraka (Henderson Avenue), Ross Smith Bvd (Oakden) and the Para Hills section of the 506 (Milne Road, Sleep Road and Miller Avenue) as these cuts will make it much harder for passengers to access regular services. I’m sure there are other small, unnecessary cuts too but these three come to mind
Now Running Express - Next Stop: City

PhilH
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by PhilH »

If I understand the new 313/314 map correctly, 314 (essentially replacing 155/157 on Military Road at West Lakes) goes into West Lakes Interchange, but the 313 (replacing 117 on Bartley Terrace) doesn't? I used to live in that area, and I suspect that a stop in West Lakes for shopping, cinemas, etc, plus the connection to the 119 city via Henley Square service and other city-bound services, would be more useful to the area's residents than a direct route to the airport.

Have to agree with the comments above about the loss of the 208 in Galway Avenue and Oakden. Apart from the fact that one of my sisters lives off Galway Avenue and is now rather p'd off about having to cross North East Road in the mornings, my own observations showed me that it is a very well-used route, even off peak, and much used by the students at Windsor Gardens Vocational College, many travelling to/from Hampstead Gardens and even the top end of Galway Avenue.

jibb
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

Phil it is important you or your sister or both complete the DPTI survey re these changes, so you can make your voice heard along with the thousands of others who are very unhappy with the changes-also a good idea to email your local MP.

TT
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by TT »

The 313 does go into West Lakes Shops and then continues onto the airport (partly replacing the 288 and J8 services). The only reason 314 at West Lakes Mall is displayed on the map is to show that it terminates there, just like 313 shows up at the airport as its terminus. And 313 and 314 are shown at Port Adelaide Interchange as they both terminate there.
To me the 313 is a bit of a dog's breakfast: it doesn't really help the people on Tapleys Hill Road who currently catch the 288 to the city, unless they want to have the pleasure of transferring to the 110 Go Zone (route 4) at Grange Road.
And I'm a bit suspicious about all these feeders and transfers (like what the 117 and 157 have become): passengers validate twice for each "journey" (with 2 trips making up the journey) and Minister Knoll will be able to proclaim an increase in bus travel once the new routes are operational because the number of validations has gone up by x%. Is that too cynical?

jibb
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

TT wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:19 am
The 313 does go into West Lakes Shops and then continues onto the airport (partly replacing the 288 and J8 services). The only reason 314 at West Lakes Mall is displayed on the map is to show that it terminates there, just like 313 shows up at the airport as its terminus. And 313 and 314 are shown at Port Adelaide Interchange as they both terminate there.
To me the 313 is a bit of a dog's breakfast: it doesn't really help the people on Tapleys Hill Road who currently catch the 288 to the city, unless they want to have the pleasure of transferring to the 110 Go Zone (route 4) at Grange Road.
And I'm a bit suspicious about all these feeders and transfers (like what the 117 and 157 have become): passengers validate twice for each "journey" (with 2 trips making up the journey) and Minister Knoll will be able to proclaim an increase in bus travel once the new routes are operational because the number of validations has gone up by x%. Is that too cynical?
Another example is the 330/331X from Aberfoyle Park/Flagstaff Hill to Flinders Medical Centre a 5-10 minute walk to the Flinders Link Station for the trip to town-passengers logging on when they get on the train-and Knoll will use this to say yes look at the number of people now catching a train, and overall the number of passengers using our bus network has increased just like I said it would"-a real con job!

hillsbus
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by hillsbus »

jibb wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:27 am
TT wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:19 am
The 313 does go into West Lakes Shops and then continues onto the airport (partly replacing the 288 and J8 services). The only reason 314 at West Lakes Mall is displayed on the map is to show that it terminates there, just like 313 shows up at the airport as its terminus. And 313 and 314 are shown at Port Adelaide Interchange as they both terminate there.
To me the 313 is a bit of a dog's breakfast: it doesn't really help the people on Tapleys Hill Road who currently catch the 288 to the city, unless they want to have the pleasure of transferring to the 110 Go Zone (route 4) at Grange Road.
And I'm a bit suspicious about all these feeders and transfers (like what the 117 and 157 have become): passengers validate twice for each "journey" (with 2 trips making up the journey) and Minister Knoll will be able to proclaim an increase in bus travel once the new routes are operational because the number of validations has gone up by x%. Is that too cynical?
Another example is the 330/331X from Aberfoyle Park/Flagstaff Hill to Flinders Medical Centre a 5-10 minute walk to the Flinders Link Station for the trip to town-passengers logging on when they get on the train-and Knoll will use this to say yes look at the number of people now catching a train, and overall the number of passengers using our bus network has increased just like I said it would"-a real con job!
Does anyone know if they've mapped out a route between the Flinders Station and the FMC bus interchange? I still can't picture how people will easily get between the two!

jibb
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

hillsbus wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:29 am
jibb wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:27 am

Another example is the 330/331X from Aberfoyle Park/Flagstaff Hill to Flinders Medical Centre a 5-10 minute walk to the Flinders Link Station for the trip to town-passengers logging on when they get on the train-and Knoll will use this to say yes look at the number of people now catching a train, and overall the number of passengers using our bus network has increased just like I said it would"-a real con job!
Does anyone know if they've mapped out a route between the Flinders Station and the FMC bus interchange? I still can't picture how people will easily get between the two!
There is no actual roadway-there will be a partially undercover walkway-with a 5-10 minute walk to the station. This will not go down well with Aberfoyle Park/Flagstaff Hill commuters who will no longer have a direct City buses-they have had between 7am and 8am on weekdays between the 3 current routes 11 buses in that period.
Their new trip will be up to 1/2 an hour longer.

TT
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by TT »

•Reduce bus journey times with detailed analysis

•More direct bus routes
That’s from Adelaide Metro website trumpeting in the proposed changes. Reduced journey times? More direct routes? Go figure!

soak01
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by soak01 »

jibb wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:44 am
hillsbus wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:29 am


Does anyone know if they've mapped out a route between the Flinders Station and the FMC bus interchange? I still can't picture how people will easily get between the two!
There is no actual roadway-there will be a partially undercover walkway-with a 5-10 minute walk to the station. This will not go down well with Aberfoyle Park/Flagstaff Hill commuters who will no longer have a direct City buses-they have had between 7am and 8am on weekdays between the 3 current routes 11 buses in that period.
Their new trip will be up to 1/2 an hour longer.
Its like the one way freeway debacle all over again. The new station is either in the wrong place, or make sure there is direct ready access to the bus network.

PD2/20
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by PD2/20 »

jibb wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:44 am
hillsbus wrote:
Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:29 am


Does anyone know if they've mapped out a route between the Flinders Station and the FMC bus interchange? I still can't picture how people will easily get between the two!
There is no actual roadway-there will be a partially undercover walkway-with a 5-10 minute walk to the station. This will not go down well with Aberfoyle Park/Flagstaff Hill commuters who will no longer have a direct City buses-they have had between 7am and 8am on weekdays between the 3 current routes 11 buses in that period.
Their new trip will be up to 1/2 an hour longer.
Work underway this and next weekends on the elevated walkway to the station. https://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/__data/asset ... e_2020.pdf

Skexis
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Skexis »

Will all this increase patronage? Probably not.
Will all this increase confusion and cause annoyance? Probably yes.
Will all this be better for the travelling public? Probably not.
When all this becomes an election issue will the current govt blame the previous Labor govt? Definitely yes.

TA3001
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by TA3001 »

Will it save money, which will satisfy a Liberal government? Most certainly.

Regardless of how nonbeneficial it is to many, at the end of the day, it's all that matters to them.

Merc1107
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Merc1107 »

Skexis wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:57 am
Will all this increase confusion and cause annoyance? Probably yes.
Even if one takes the cynical perspective on these changes, how they can they 'increase confusion'? There are less routes and variations as a result of the proposals.

In contrast, how would someone in the know explain current services for a specific area to a tourist, visitor or one-off bus user when there can be dozens of variations and minute differences between services?

TT
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by TT »

Tourist? Tell someone at the Semaphore caravan park that they catch a 157 into the city from Bower Road just down from the caravan park. In the future you tell them they have to connect catch a Connector to West Lakes and then catch any of a variety of buses from West Lakes into the city.
Or, Tell someone who is staying at the West Beach caravan park or Shores resort at the moment they catch a J1 into the city. In the future tell them that if they get up early they can catch a bus to the city otherwise they will need to catch a suburban connector up to somewhere on Sir Donald Bradman Drive and transfer to a J1 to the city from there.
Thats certainly not making it confusing for tourists is it?

Merc1107
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Merc1107 »

Those are two good examples, but to counter that, tourists also stay in the city, or with family in the suburbs. Or another example, a one-off bus user has just dropped off their car for servicing and needs to get to work and back to the mechanic again that afternoon. Maybe these areas don't just have a single, direct city service. How do you explain those; or peak-only services that may go a different way altogether?

Great network if, as a regular user (or bus driver) you can remember what goes where, at what times and take advantage of it. For someone unfamiliar with the network - too bloody hard... With any shred of common sense you'd skip public transport altogether and drive.

TT
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by TT »

Lots of tourists stay in the city and for some reason many want to visit Harbourtown (don’t know why, but it’s a common question, “do you go to Harbourtown?” ). Now that will be to catch a J1 (route 1) but get off somewhere between Marion Rd and Airport Rd (which will confuse in itself) and then catch a 301.
I agree the current bus network needed a bit of a tidy up but getting rid of so many direct routes so that others (or shortened versions of same eg 157) can become GoZones or extended GoZones is going to leave a lot of people inconvenienced.
Why have a 15 minute service on the 118 all the way to Port Adelaide and completely remove the 117 from city. People on Trimmer Pde usually want West Lakes: now it becomes a transfer from a 118 to something else (something that’s coming from the airport along Taps Hill Rd) while the 118 continues on to Port probably close to empty but it’s to ensure there’s that 15 minute service along there. I think they’ve thrown the baby out with the bath water just to get the increase in GoZones. Why combine the 141 and 142 so that it’s a GoZone right to the terminus when the current GoZone to stop 9 works fine: now people boarding near the 142 terminus get to go to the city via a Cook’s tour of Stoneyfell: gives them a longer trip in but they’ve got a GoZone: and AdMetro says this is all about faster more direct trips?

jibb
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by jibb »

Well said TT-this is so true-it is the same all across the Metro area.
How about no direct bus service from Flagstaff Hill/Aberfoyle Park to the City-they are cancelling the G20/G21/G22x which have 11 departures on weekday mornings between 7-8am,and replace with 330 which will drop passengers at Flinders Medical Centre to catch the train to the City.
This bus will then continue to the Marion Shopping Centre. Or they can catch the X331 that terminates at Flinders Medical Centre.
The all stops train to the City will deliver them to North Terrace, where they will have the choice of walking into the CBD or catching a Botanic Gardens Tram or a Glenelg tram to King William Street or Victoria Square.
Previously their bus dropped them off in either Victoria Square or King William Street.
This new journey will take them up to 30 minutes longer-so much for Mr Knolls-faster, direct services.

Skexis
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Re: Knoll faces Liberal Party revolt on bus cuts

Post by Skexis »

Merc1107 wrote:
Mon Jun 22, 2020 3:44 am
Skexis wrote:
Sun Jun 21, 2020 8:57 am
Will all this increase confusion and cause annoyance? Probably yes.
Even if one takes the cynical perspective on these changes, how they can they 'increase confusion'? There are less routes and variations as a result of the proposals.
It will increase confusion because, in the Outer South at least, the drivers won't have a clue about routes they do not drive and as all the route numbers are changing the public won't know which bus goes where.

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