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Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

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Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby soak01 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:54 pm

Great in theory but when the bus is a rigid everyone tries to board through the centre door to get a seat. And if you do use the front door look forward to the glares when trying to get past those boarding thru the centre door.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby TA3001 » Tue Feb 27, 2018 6:50 pm

soak01 wrote:Great in theory but when the bus is a rigid everyone tries to board through the centre door to get a seat. And if you do use the front door look forward to the glares when trying to get past those boarding thru the centre door.


I only use the O'bahn to get to or from Paradise nowadays, with the odd exception, but frankly I don't really care what strangers think of me boarding through the front door potentially obstructing their 'right of way'.

'First come, first served' is how it works in my opinion. There is no signage saying please board by centre door, and they are obliged to wait for passengers to alight anyhow. It's just a matter of convenience basically.

I also prefer to have a quick look at the driver of the vehicle. There are a few (at Torrens at least) that I recognise that tend to drive in styles that make the trip rather uncomfortable.

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Last edited by TA3001 on Wed Feb 28, 2018 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby Skexis » Wed Feb 28, 2018 12:21 am

Rear door boarding simply means the fare dodgers will have an easier time of it as the driver won't have any idea of who has validated at the rear. This being the case why bother challenging anyone who uses the front door and doesn't validate.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby simonl » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:26 am

Wow! So much cynicism. Is it really a negative?
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby bigrobbo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:00 pm

I thought all door boarding was in the city and interchanges only.

I was on an artic 101 a few weeks ago. A migrant to the country slipped on through the middle door along Marion Rd. I told her that the bus did not go to Marion.

Clearly, some passengers think all door boarding is at every stop.


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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby Skexis » Mon Mar 05, 2018 7:13 pm

bigrobbo wrote:Clearly, some passengers think all door boarding is at every stop

Well for those buses with the rear door boarding signs it's fair game wherever they stop and to be fair it would have to be. Restricting it to certain stops only just would not work. Given the travelling public seems not yet to have come to grips with inserting a ticket into a validator the correct way around they'd have no chance whatsoever of working out something as complex as where and where not to use the rear door to board. The other thing to note is that once passengers get used to all door boarding for those buses currently trialling it then they will assume it also applies to every other AdMet bus. Oh the fun times ahead.....
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby bigrobbo » Mon Mar 05, 2018 9:37 pm

I had cause to catch a extremely full M44 around 3:15pm Friday outside Internode.

One lady wanted to get off the Centre door. The driver was loathe to open the doors in fear passengers would just try and pile on a bus that could not take any more passengers, other than through the front door.


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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby tonyp » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:36 am

Skexis wrote:Rear door boarding simply means the fare dodgers will have an easier time of it as the driver won't have any idea of who has validated at the rear. This being the case why bother challenging anyone who uses the front door and doesn't validate.

What's so different from the trams and trains? Absolutely nothing. That's what you have patrolling RPOs for.

simonl wrote:Wow! So much cynicism. Is it really a negative?

Having a quicker bus journey and having the bus load more efficiently and fully is obviously a negative to some. Let's keep the effectiveness of buses damped down as much as possible shall we?
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby tonyp » Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:38 am

soak01 wrote:Great in theory but when the bus is a rigid everyone tries to board through the centre door to get a seat.


Well that's the idea, to distribute people into the bus at several points (like a train or tram) so that loading is more even and quicker and the bus fills up properly. Loading through the front door means that passengers invariably come to a standstill to form a plug at around the centre of the bus and it doesn't fully load, resulting in people getting left behind at the stop.

Skexis wrote:The other thing to note is that once passengers get used to all door boarding for those buses currently trialling it then they will assume it also applies to every other AdMet bus. Oh the fun times ahead.....

Well that can only be a good thing. Then all services will operate more efficiently, not just a selected few! Mind you, in Perth, passengers seem to be quite disciplined in understanding that only CATs and specials are all-door loading and other route services are front door loading. Have some faith in human nature, it may be better than you think! :wink:

Here's a large part of what it's all about (click on the "watch on Vimeo" button):



Here's some all-door loading in action in Perth:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zhio6oNgnRY&t

Most people favour the centre door, leaving the front door free for wheelchairs, prams etc.

In Europe where they often have another door behind the rear axle, my personal observation is that most people board through the centre and rear doors; front is more commonly used for exit.

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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby bigrobbo » Thu Mar 15, 2018 8:48 pm

I don’t think passengers understand the entire “all door boarding” times.

AdelaideMetro clearly states the times on their website and the locations.

But, passengers seem to want to board on all doors at all times at all locations.

For what the intention is for, I don’t think it is a success.


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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby TA3001 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 9:35 pm

I actually boarded two O'bahn buses today on the track. On both occasions, only the front doors were opened.

All door boarding should be in effect everywhere in a bus with validators in each doorway. It is stupid to only have it in effect on the O'bahn.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby tonyp » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:10 pm

This is the information the public sees:

https://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/conten ... 283%29.pdf

Why would they think they can't board an O Bahn bus through any door at any time? This seems to be AdMet not implementing it properly and of course it should be on all O Bahn services (for starters). The public will respond positively to consistency and clarity. If there's something vague or irrational or too selective about it, of course there will be problems.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby PD2/20 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:43 am

tonyp wrote:This is the information the public sees:

https://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/conten ... 283%29.pdf

Why would they think they can't board an O Bahn bus through any door at any time? This seems to be AdMet not implementing it properly and of course it should be on all O Bahn services (for starters). The public will respond positively to consistency and clarity. If there's something vague or irrational or too selective about it, of course there will be problems.

A webpage https://www.adelaidemetro.com.au/Announcements/News/All-door-boarding-on-O-Bahn-buses accessible from the AdMet homepage, which contains a link to the pdf flyer, does detail the restrictions on all door boarding unlike the flyer. All door boarding is permitted at:
O-Bahn Interchanges - during peak times when travelling to the city
City stops - during peaks times when travelling from the city

The restrictions have been less widely publicised than the capability. I was unaware of the restrictions until reading this thread today.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby Skexis » Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:55 am

tonyp wrote:... having the bus load more efficiently and fully is obviously a negative to some. Let's keep the effectiveness of buses damped down as much as possible shall we?

Just wondering what experience you have of driving buses, here or anywhere else. I drive them daily and my views are based on what I see.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby tonyp » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:39 pm

Skexis wrote:
tonyp wrote:... having the bus load more efficiently and fully is obviously a negative to some. Let's keep the effectiveness of buses damped down as much as possible shall we?

Just wondering what experience you have of driving buses, here or anywhere else. I drive them daily and my views are based on what I see.

Yes of course your experience comes from what you see at the work face. I've also seen the work face as a passenger and my background is in transport planning.

All-door boarding works great (watch the video above), but the operator must be consistent and clear about its application so as not to confuse the customers - plus have a good system of roving RPOs for revenue protection. I've ridden extensively on a range of systems from system-wide all-door boarding to systems with selected services only all-door boarding. They all work fine - provided that the transit agency/operator is clear and consistent about it.

It seems to me that AdMet isn't being clear and consistent about it and you get the consequences of that as a driver. Don't blame the method on poor implementation. Take it up with AdMet.

My suggestion would be for AdMet to apply it to a group of services (e.g. All O Bahn services), if not system-wide to prevent confusion among customers.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby tonyp » Sat Mar 17, 2018 6:48 am

Skexis wrote:
tonyp wrote:... having the bus load more efficiently and fully is obviously a negative to some. Let's keep the effectiveness of buses damped down as much as possible shall we?

Just wondering what experience you have of driving buses, here or anywhere else. I drive them daily and my views are based on what I see.

I just scrolled back to the original post Skexis and I must say that my comment wasn't directed at you but in response to simonl's comment which I took as a very general one. Apologies if you took it the wrong way.

A Neil Hamilton posted this video of buses at Tea Tree Plaza in 2014 and his commentary on the length of time it takes buses to load is interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnA6xE-y2c4&t

There are two or three buses after the 3:30 minute mark to the end of the video that have stupendous dwells of over two minutes. That's really unacceptable. There should be no difference between a bus and tram in this regard and, in this era of smartcard fare payment where the driver is not (or rarely) involved in fare collection, there is no reason that buses can't exchange passengers through all doors like tram. The free loop buses in the CBD (98/99) are another one where there is no argument against all-door loading, like the CAT buses in Perth. In NSW where TfNSW is opposed to all-door loading, front door-only loading is the major cause of delays and timetable-breakdowns on the busy free Gong Shuttle in Wollongong for example.

Incidentally, since we've discovered the detail of AdMet's apparent restriction on all-door loading on O Bahn buses, how are the public supposed to know when "peak" starts and ends? Are drivers given some sort of instruction on this too? With this sort of vague implementation, no wonder they have people trying the other doors at other times. Consistency and clarity is vital to implementing this sort of initiative.

It also shouldn't be over-detailed, like the "peak hour" stipulation, because users aren't going to remember this level of detail along with everything else. It should be broad - like all O Bahn buses at any time or none at all.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby Skexis » Sun Mar 18, 2018 4:37 pm

No issues here. I seriously don't think all door boarding is the way forward. When the rail subs were in use I found a few of the older buses in use, not sure of the correct type but I think they were numbered R5xx, had a small gate at the front of the bus that meant no one could exit via the front door. As such it was like a mini one-way system where passengers could only enter at the front and leave at the back and in my view this worked like a charm and was very efficient. Having everyone enter and leave by any door they choose would merely create jams at each door. The trouble is that when these decisions are made it's usually by some deskbound idiot who has no hands-on experience of the issue that supposedly needs fixing.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby tonyp » Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:27 pm

What you're describing is called passenger flow, which is the traditional method that the Brits used. This is no longer possible because the front door has to be used for exit using the ramp by mobility-restricted passengers including wheelchairs, prams etc. The relative merits of all-door boarding vs passenger flow have been tested and measured to death over the years and all-door loading is found to be superior for minimising dwell times and distributing passengers more evenly through the vehicle. These have been real-life on the road studies, not theoretical decisions from behind a desk.

All-door loading is used all over Europe and is now spreading elsewhere around the world, including USA (see the Boston video above). It's also used in Australia for specific services in Perth, Melbourne, Canberra and Brisbane. It used to be the only method of loading buses in Sydney until the advent of OMO. And of course its now universally used in trams (they gave up the idea of passenger flow too) and you see it working fine right there on the Adelaide trams. If you're against it you're swimming against a big tide there!
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby jibb » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:13 pm

All O-Bahn services are now all day-all door boarding. Notice on Adelaide Metro website.
Available at all City stops and major interchanges.(doesn't mention Marion?)
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby tonyp » Tue Mar 27, 2018 8:23 pm

jibb wrote:All O-Bahn services are now all day-all door boarding. Notice on Adelaide Metro website.
Available at all City stops and major interchanges.(doesn't mention Marion?)

Inevitable. If you try to put qualifications on these things, it just creates confusion. Next decision will be extending it to all stops on O Bahn services after passengers complain that doors don't open for them. Best to bite the whole bullet all at once, first off.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby Eagle Eye » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:54 am

jibb wrote:All O-Bahn services are now all day-all door boarding. Notice on Adelaide Metro website.
Available at all City stops and major interchanges.(doesn't mention Marion?)

Marion Interchange isn't an O-Bahn interchange.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby Swift » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:54 pm

We need more door boarding. Three door rigids with super wide door ways were NORMAL when I was in Italy. Australia has a mental disease the way it clings to a regimented system of always going past the driver to this day. And Busgren could release a threw door rigid in 5 minutes if they were willing but refuse to as do the operators who will not request it.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby Skexis » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:58 pm

Swift wrote:We need more door boarding. Three door rigids with super wide door ways were NORMAL when I was in Italy. Australia has a mental disease the way it clings to a regimented system of always going past the driver to this day. And Busgren could release a threw door rigid in 5 minutes if they were willing but refuse to as do the operators who will not request it.

Not sure the operators have any real say in purchases or configurations. Anyway more doors mean less seats so you would lose as much as you'd potentially gain.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby tonyp » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:24 am

Seats vs doors are a factor of distance and the level of turnover of passengers. Typically artics are purchased for large loads and high turnover and they need the three doors. The trend in Australia for buses that are express or semi-express for long runs out into the suburbs seems to be now double-deckers that, while they are pretty terrible for stop dwells exchanging passengers, have plenty of seats.

I'd like to see Adelaide (and Canberra) in future buying artics like Volgren builds that are at least low-floor to after the third axle (if not completely low-floor). Those Custom artics with the high floor starting in the front unit are a joke and especially now with all-door boarding where people have to tackle stairs at two of the three doors.
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Re: Is All Door Boarding Really Working?

Postby Merc1107 » Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:39 pm

tonyp wrote:Those Custom artics with the high floor starting in the front unit are a joke and especially now with all-door boarding where people have to tackle stairs at two of the three doors.
Must be a product of the chassis they are built on, or perhaps the operator's specification as Transperth's (single, I might add) Customs-bodied M.A.N. is low floor until the rear axle. Riding it some time ago on a busy 950, passengers congregated around the turntable, of all places, not the rear step as is often the case. This caused issues with boarding via the front door only. With the rear doors, you'd have been able to take up the remaining rear seat or two, plus all that standing room up the back.

Does all-door boarding help to reduce the issue of passengers dwelling around the doors, as is the case on the railways, as I can foresee that as being the only issue - but this is also true for the traditional boarding method.
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