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Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Adelaide / South Australia Transport Discussion

Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Tim Williams » Tue Sep 01, 2015 5:52 pm

Our dear Transport Minister advised on Monday evening that the rail line to Salisbury would be electrified by 2010 - what a great plan. And what of the rest of the line north to Elizabeth and Gawler you might ask - that wasn't mentioned.
So by 2020, passengers will ride on EMU's to Salisbury and transfer to DMU's for the journey north to Elizabeth/Gawler??? or will they be running dedicated DMU trains from Adelaide for passengers travelling north of Salisbury - sounds like a well thought out plan, doesn't it!!

He also mentioned that once the current contract for EMU's was completed there would be 7 surplus sets which I guess would be used (a little later) for the Adelaide to Salisbury line - it doesn't seem enough sets to me.

Now you can see why laugh at all the magnificent spending plans put forward by this SA Government when they cannot fund completion of the rail electrification. For example, wouldn't it make more sense to put the O-Bahn tunnel and other upgrades on hold until this rail project is fully funded and completed.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby jibb » Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:21 pm

Transport Minister Mullighan said on radio today that the 5 extra trains would be utilized on the Seaford line,either by revision to the timetable adding in extra trains,as well as making some trains longer(ie like Footy Express joining 2 sets together.)
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Torrens_5022 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:05 pm

It's "5 extra sets" - well not really, the Tonsley line is only at a 30 min frequency currently, wasn't there a 15 min peak frequency proposed? Even if they go to a 20 min frequency that's another 1 or 2 sets used, plus a spare one for unexpected reasons. The news there is is surplus is just crap, increased passengers would result in more services or 6 car sets being used.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Route 506 » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:23 pm

I am afraid this is why people interstate laugh at us here. It should go without second thoughts that if the Gawler Central line is to be electrified it should be the whole way. This way idea is just ridiculous and I have to wonder is it more of a band aid to allow EMUs to get to Dry Creek on their own and Salisbury is a good "turn around point" if that makes sense. Just so disappointing that we can't get a job done properly here. I use the O-Bahn regularly, but would gladly put the extension on hold in order to get rail electrification completed fully.

I believe that there were some 3000 class trains that were possibly going to be converted to electric. Is this still on the agenda or has the budget cut this as well?

I don't like to be negative, but things like this are just really disappointing and a lack of forward thinking here. :shock: :!:
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby burrumbus » Tue Sep 01, 2015 9:28 pm

Is the O-Bahn through the short city section that slow ??
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Tim Williams » Wed Sep 02, 2015 8:10 am

This whole rail extension - the comment made about this Salisbury electrification being primarily to permit EMU's to travel to and from Dry Creek for servicing does seem a strong possibility as the present "towing" arrangement must be a great source to embarrassment to Adelaide Metro and the government. Otherwise an extension just to Salisbury makes little sense to me.

I guess with this project out of money, how on earth can the government be seriously thinking of starting the O-Bahn project - under the current arrangement we will finish up with half a tunnel there! The people who run this state really are a bunch disorganised incompetents.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby system improver » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:03 am

Tim Williams wrote:Our dear Transport Minister advised on Monday evening that the rail line to Salisbury would be electrified by 2010 - what a great plan...

Did he really say that or is it a typo?

On the general topic of electrification, if no start had been made, there would have been no finish date at all. Tony Abbott's, "it is not in our knitting" policy denies even one cent to public transport funding. Hopefully, that will change soon and more funds will be made available to accelerate the electrification.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Tim Williams » Wed Sep 02, 2015 9:12 am

I am sorry - it is a typo, it should have read 2020! (typing too quickly and not reviewing carefully enough)
It is going to take federal funds to see this project through (Elizabeth/Gawler etc.) and has been mentioned in the past, I am sure there will be a push to go further North with urban trains. It is worth noting that some of the early London Underground extensions were literally into green field areas and suburbs quickly developed once the lines were in place and operating - same could apply (on a more modest level) to the Barossa and places like Roseworthy.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Eagle Eye » Wed Sep 02, 2015 10:52 am

Isn't it ironic that Adelaide to Salisbury is the only part of the line currently due for electrification yet a number of power poles are up between Salisbury & Gawler... :?
$2,500 fines for vehicles illegally using red Bus Only lanes - could cut the state's debt real quickly if they extended that to regular Bus Lanes!
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby PD2/20 » Wed Sep 02, 2015 2:45 pm

Tim Williams wrote:This whole rail extension - the comment made about this Salisbury electrification being primarily to permit EMU's to travel to and from Dry Creek for servicing does seem a strong possibility as the present "towing" arrangement must be a great source to embarrassment to Adelaide Metro and the government. Otherwise an extension just to Salisbury makes little sense to me.

...

A further justification for the Dry Creek/Salisbury electrification is that it will allow a second substation at Kilburn/Dry Creek to feed the rail system in addition to the present sole feed at Lonsdale.

Electrification only to Salisbury is not ideal but it should be welcomed as a first stage of the complete line. If I recall correctly the preliminary work Salisbury - Evanston was funded in part by federal funding as an acceleration of the electrification at the same time as the Mawson Lakes - Gawler track works.

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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Tim Williams » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:40 am

Let's hope that the rest of the line to Gawler can be electrified fairly quickly after that!
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby tramfan70 » Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:07 pm

Meanwhile Auckland similar network in size is completed fully operational (Build 2010-2015) in July with 57 trains delivered.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Tonsley213 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 2:20 pm

The trouble is that the system works as it is. The Seaford line now operates exclusively to itself, this means that all the other lines can benefit for capacity increases because the diesel trains have been released from Seaford workings. If you look at it from a non-jealous railfan point of view the gov has the foundations for their capacity increases, time tabling and scheduling are virtually all that are holding it back.

Put it another way, the further cost of electrifying the entire Gawler line just so 6 rail cars can run around instead of sitting around is just not economically sensible (don't forget it costs more to run a railcar than for it to sit around). In reality if wires were strung all the way to Gawler, a significant portion of the rolling stock running under those wire will still be diesel, so instead of having the relatively cheap EMUs lying around you would have 100's of millions of dollars worth of infrastructure being under utilised untill a significant (and unnecessary for the next 5+years) amount of money is spent either converting the DMUs to EMUs or buying new trains.

So please stop looking at it from a 'they're laughing at us' point of view because it's full of crap (they get more money than us) and look at it from a more logical economic point of view.

P.S this rubbish about it the O-Bahn tunnel being unnecessary, it's not, that corridor is one of the most trafficked in SA and is strategically far more important for the cost than electrifying the Gawler line. The 160 mill could be spent on things like health etc but if it must be spent on PT it is a project right up there with a great cost/benift ratio.

FYI I am aware I have just opened up a whole new spectrum for arguments just because I'm looking at it from logical economic reasoning, so please note I will only respond to those who are willing to have a proper discussion and not just outright attack.

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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Tim Williams » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:06 pm

Your points are valid and I use buses only, I am not near a railway line - hence hopefully no bias!

1. No matter how it is viewed, I personally regard electric traction as much more efficient and cleaner, although I do acknowledge, how electricity is generated in SA is not all that clean - we should go for nuclear,
2. The DMU's are getting on, and even with refurbishment, will not be as quick or attractive (from a passenger aspect) as these new EMU's.
3. If there are only 6 x EMU's available for that northern line (assuming good and tight utilisation of the Seaford line units) then the original order was insufficient.
4. Assuming Salisbury is as far as electrification goes, what happens there - train transfers to DMU's for onward journeys for those EMU operated services from Adelaide. If so there will have to be some work done at Salisbury station and I can tell from past experiences, transfers of this nature are highly unpopular with the travelling public. I just hope the Salisbury electrification is just not a "stealth" method of connecting up Dry Creek depot for servicing the EMU's!!
5. Yes, the O-Bahn has been an oustanding success and deserves a better method of getting in and out of the city. My main point here was, why start a new project, when existing projects (Electrification and Health) cannot be properly finished through lack of funds. A few years ago I thought about the O-Bahn's problems in and out of the cIty and I thought of a cheap (maybe Interim) fix, which was to create a single bus lane along the centre of Hackney Road (to City AM & from City PM) and cross North Tce and Rundle St and onto the old tram mound to Grenfell St (all traffic light preferences to the buses) - just a thought - cheap, but I am sure not as good as a tunnel.

It is difficult to argue cost/benefits with public transport as just about all urban public transport is very heavily subsidised and it is more a question getting people out of cars and freeing up city centres to create more desirable places - just look at London where restrictions on cars (by way of cost) have turned people to buses, the underground and taxis with the highest patronage figures ever. TfL has now 8,900 buses under contract - biggest number ever, but the cost to the taxpayer is enormous.

In Adelaide neither the Port or Belair lines carry sufficient passengers to justify their existance on a purely cost/benefit basis. However it is probably socially desirable to retain the lines and would be politically suicidal to close them down!
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Eurostar » Wed Sep 16, 2015 10:02 am

Both gawler and outer harbour lines should be done asap as the areas are expanding . this new hotel in port Adelaide will hopefully attract more visitors to the area. Once Elizabeth north areas are fixed up I can see the old areas of Elizabeth south areas been done next. Areas north of Port Adelaide (Taperoo etc) I can see been done up next so new trains would not only look good but improve reliability and increase land values.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby BroadGauge » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:32 pm

Tim Williams wrote:4. Assuming Salisbury is as far as electrification goes, what happens there - train transfers to DMU's for onward journeys for those EMU operated services from Adelaide. If so there will have to be some work done at Salisbury station and I can tell from past experiences, transfers of this nature are highly unpopular with the travelling public. I just hope the Salisbury electrification is just not a "stealth" method of connecting up Dry Creek depot for servicing the EMU's!!

I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up with only a part-electric service - perhaps with a few weekday peak trains terminating at Salisbury being operated by EMUs, with the remainder being through diesel services from Adelaide to Gawler Central.

Bit like the former Warragul electrification in Victoria which only had a few daily electric services with the rest being diesel trains continuing through.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby PD2/20 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:05 pm

There is I believe a threefold case for an interim electrification to Dry Creek/Salisbury:
(1) removal of the need for diesel traction to Dry Creek depot, (2) provision of a second traction substation at Kilburn to provide system redundacy, (3) the use of spare electric units to provide additional capacity on the Gawler line (Mawson Lakes and Salisbury together account for a significant portion of the passenger demand on the line).

However the assumption that there are 6 surplus units out of the 22 is questionable. Currently 15 units are required each weekday to cover Seaford and Tonsley. In addition a unit as backup is desirable. Allowance also has to be made for units under going the various levels of regular servicing and maintenance. A further two units would be required to provide the projected 15 min Tonsley service. The Seaford service may also need to be strengthened as several of the peak workings currently carry significant standing loads.

Although the transfer of diesel units from Seaford/Tonsley has taken place, at present the Gawler service has been strengthened to only a limited extent. A recent trip past Dry Creek at 5pm revealed an empty stabling yard indicating that there are few surplus diesel units. 2-car sets are still common on the Gawler line and have been packed even in mid afternoon.

It should be noted that the order of 22 EMUs was to be supplemented for the Gawler electrification by conversion of DEMUs. The 3000 DEMU is a mid-80s design and the oldest of the fleet are only 7 years younger than the Jumbos. At the likely completion of the entire Gawler electrification the 3000s would be approaching their replacement date.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby TA3001 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 6:18 pm

I'd expect them to be replaced from the late 2020s to early 2030s. There isn't a specific life span for suburban trains AFAIK, unlike the buses which get usually retired at 24 years of age.

They seem to be maintained better nowadays than in the 1990s from my observations, so this should give them no trouble reaching 35-40 years of service.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby busrider » Thu Sep 17, 2015 9:45 pm

Sydney is still operating some S-Set trains which were built between 1972-1980, they don't even have air-conditioning! I think the 3000s/3100s still have a bit of life in them yet.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:08 pm

If it's not very to super hot, does it matter if trains are air-conditioned or not?

And it doesn't matter how old a train (ANY transport vehicle is including cars), if they are maintained well.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby busrider » Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:32 am

Wasn't that the point of my post? Yes they're old and they don't have aircon, but they're still running. The 3000s/3100s are only 19-28 years old, and they have air-conditioning. And yes, Adelaide does get quite hot in summer so aircon does matter...
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby BroadGauge » Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:47 pm

Newcastle Flyer wrote:If it's not very to super hot, does it matter if trains are air-conditioned or not?

With those trains in particular, seeing as they have no form of artificial climate control at all (not even heating), yes it does.
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby I Follow PAFC » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:03 pm

Zap — Gawler electrification to begin ‘within weeks’
RAIL TRANSPORT THE Adelaide CBD will finally be linked to the northern suburbs via electric rail when work on the $615 million Gawler Electrification project begins within weeks.

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/sout ... 5dbb5f7ef1
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby jibb » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:05 pm

Stage 1 will only go to Salisbury.Passengers who wish to continue beyond that will need to change to a Diesel train for the remainder of their journey..
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Re: Next Stage of Rail Electrification - Adelaide

Postby thedom » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:32 pm

jibb wrote:Stage 1 will only go to Salisbury.Passengers who wish to continue beyond that will need to change to a Diesel train for the remainder of their journey..


Will they? Or can they board a Diesel train in the city and head to Elizabeth, and beyond? Will Salisbury's electric service be like the tonsley service - all stops and the Diesel services can run express to mawson lakes, salisbury and then continue onward....

It makes sense seing as we dont have a large contingency of electric sets in peak hour spare. 5 to 7 sets at most?
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