BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
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- panther998
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Getting back to the original subject matter for a moment , a combination of factors led to (genuine Dennis) WAGT 71 making its public debut as a 'preserved bus' yesterday at the annual Classic Car Show held at Mussel Pool in Whiteman Park. Somewhat surprisingly (to some), 71 formed part of the 6 bus line-up presented by BPSWA, which comprised, in chronological order from front left to front right,
1929 Leyland Lion LT1 ex Metro 22, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=METRO22B
1947 Dennis Lancet III ex WA Gov't Railways D24, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGR24
1950 Dennis Lancet IV ex WA Gov't Tramways 71, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGT71
1950 Foden PVSG6 ex WA Gov't Railways F44, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGR44
1966/7 Leyland Lion PSR1/1 ex WA Gov't Railways Dp90, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGR90 and
1967 Austin 2.45F school bus, ex Somers T83 http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=T83.
I heard quite a few visitors commenting with amazement that BPSWA manages to transform 'old relics' like 71 into exhibits that seem to have come straight off the factory floor like D24, and a small number of 'senior' viewers expressed some degree of affection for both Dennis Lancets, claiming to have driven or travelled in either variant during their younger years.
1929 Leyland Lion LT1 ex Metro 22, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=METRO22B
1947 Dennis Lancet III ex WA Gov't Railways D24, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGR24
1950 Dennis Lancet IV ex WA Gov't Tramways 71, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGT71
1950 Foden PVSG6 ex WA Gov't Railways F44, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGR44
1966/7 Leyland Lion PSR1/1 ex WA Gov't Railways Dp90, http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGR90 and
1967 Austin 2.45F school bus, ex Somers T83 http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=T83.
I heard quite a few visitors commenting with amazement that BPSWA manages to transform 'old relics' like 71 into exhibits that seem to have come straight off the factory floor like D24, and a small number of 'senior' viewers expressed some degree of affection for both Dennis Lancets, claiming to have driven or travelled in either variant during their younger years.
Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
The display was much better set out this year, the buses on display looked a treat!
Sad sad days with seas and seas of silver sh!t
- panther998
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
In truth, the BPSWA displays at a couple or 3 Classic Car Shows in Whiteman Park over the past 10 or so years have not made best use of the available space, for various reasons.
One key factor is a gateway which provides access from the bitumen carpark where the buses are arrayed into the adjoining grassed area. This gate has to be kept reasonably clear during specific times to allow for passage of vehicles being displayed by other organisations. Occasionally, this requirement has been misinterpreted by the BPSWA team engaged in setting up the Society's display, which has led to the buses being too closely spaced to enable visitors to gain a 'wider' view of individual machines. On one or two occasions, BPSWA has elected to turn out more buses than the space can comfortably cope with, and ended up being a victim of its 'over-ambition'.
Happily, this years BPSWA crew benefited from some of the experience and knowledge gained out of these 'less successful' past displays and consequently managed to position what is probably the optimum number of buses to considerably better advantage.
Despite the fact that none of the vehicles is equipped with power assisted steering - indeed, most of them have steering in the 'ton of bricks' to 'arm bone breaker' range when it comes to tight, slow speed manoeuvring ....
Among other attributes which test the skill and patience of many a BPSWA volunteer, such as poor (ie, they are small and / or lack fine adjustment) or nil rear view mirrors, loud engine noise that drowns out guiding instructions from helpers, cab windows that won't open or are opaque (or both), hydraulic or vacuum brakes which take an eternity to respond compared with air brakes, etc.
Forget the old adage ''a poor workman blames his tools'' - even the best 'craftsman' (driver) can be frustrated by old and unfamiliar tools which are showing their age or have been inadequately 'honed'.
BTW, I am open to correction by those Board members who are better informed, but I believe that this was the first time that BPSWA has publicly displayed TWO Dennis Lancet buses from its collection ....
One key factor is a gateway which provides access from the bitumen carpark where the buses are arrayed into the adjoining grassed area. This gate has to be kept reasonably clear during specific times to allow for passage of vehicles being displayed by other organisations. Occasionally, this requirement has been misinterpreted by the BPSWA team engaged in setting up the Society's display, which has led to the buses being too closely spaced to enable visitors to gain a 'wider' view of individual machines. On one or two occasions, BPSWA has elected to turn out more buses than the space can comfortably cope with, and ended up being a victim of its 'over-ambition'.
Happily, this years BPSWA crew benefited from some of the experience and knowledge gained out of these 'less successful' past displays and consequently managed to position what is probably the optimum number of buses to considerably better advantage.
Despite the fact that none of the vehicles is equipped with power assisted steering - indeed, most of them have steering in the 'ton of bricks' to 'arm bone breaker' range when it comes to tight, slow speed manoeuvring ....
Among other attributes which test the skill and patience of many a BPSWA volunteer, such as poor (ie, they are small and / or lack fine adjustment) or nil rear view mirrors, loud engine noise that drowns out guiding instructions from helpers, cab windows that won't open or are opaque (or both), hydraulic or vacuum brakes which take an eternity to respond compared with air brakes, etc.
Forget the old adage ''a poor workman blames his tools'' - even the best 'craftsman' (driver) can be frustrated by old and unfamiliar tools which are showing their age or have been inadequately 'honed'.
BTW, I am open to correction by those Board members who are better informed, but I believe that this was the first time that BPSWA has publicly displayed TWO Dennis Lancet buses from its collection ....
Last edited by panther998 on Wed May 15, 2013 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Amazing acquisition - hope yet for a Lancet I or the Crossley?
- panther998
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
A quick update on the other Dennis Lancet IV now, North Beach 1.
It has had a pale shade of green applied to its waistband, drab silver paint on its front wheels, and bright silver on part of its front dome. NBBC 1 was shifted off the BPSWA Depot forecourt to enable Metro 22 (1929 Leyland Lion LT1) and WAGR D24 (1947 Dennis Lancet III) to be extricated for display on Sunday 28 April, as illustrated above. A week on, with rain forecast for Perth from 07 May, an opportunity has been taken to apply some 'Classic Cream' paint to much of its front, with special attention to the corroded areas around the nearside windscreen, which is missing its glazing. The intention is to protect what remains of the corroded metalwork and give a base for fixing some plastic sheeting over the aperture after the paint has dried and before the rain sets in - fingers crossed.
Although the area repainted is relatively small, hopefully it will give today's bus enthusiasts a glimmer of how a typical North Beach Bus Co bus looked when operating in the late 1950s in Perth's northern suburbs. In 1958, NBBC actually owned and ran 10 front engined Dennis Lancets (nos 1,2,3,5,6,8,9,11,15,23), plus a rare underfloor unit (no 17), which comprised around half of its fleet at the time. Thus BPSWA's Dennis is a fitting representative of this vanished but not forgotten operator.
However, holding ones breath while awaiting the discovery of any such 'relics' is definitely not recommended ....
It has had a pale shade of green applied to its waistband, drab silver paint on its front wheels, and bright silver on part of its front dome. NBBC 1 was shifted off the BPSWA Depot forecourt to enable Metro 22 (1929 Leyland Lion LT1) and WAGR D24 (1947 Dennis Lancet III) to be extricated for display on Sunday 28 April, as illustrated above. A week on, with rain forecast for Perth from 07 May, an opportunity has been taken to apply some 'Classic Cream' paint to much of its front, with special attention to the corroded areas around the nearside windscreen, which is missing its glazing. The intention is to protect what remains of the corroded metalwork and give a base for fixing some plastic sheeting over the aperture after the paint has dried and before the rain sets in - fingers crossed.
Although the area repainted is relatively small, hopefully it will give today's bus enthusiasts a glimmer of how a typical North Beach Bus Co bus looked when operating in the late 1950s in Perth's northern suburbs. In 1958, NBBC actually owned and ran 10 front engined Dennis Lancets (nos 1,2,3,5,6,8,9,11,15,23), plus a rare underfloor unit (no 17), which comprised around half of its fleet at the time. Thus BPSWA's Dennis is a fitting representative of this vanished but not forgotten operator.
As the old saying goes - Hope springs eternal. Albeit probably a little more so for a Dennis Lancet I than the former Scarborough Bus Service Crossley, which seems to have fallen rather short of success as a bus in Perth and consequently been dissolved into the mists of a bygone time ....Dave Wilson wrote:Amazing acquisition - hope yet for a Lancet I or the Crossley?
However, holding ones breath while awaiting the discovery of any such 'relics' is definitely not recommended ....
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
I've just been looking through perthbus.info and in the picture for Scarborough Buses No 20, a North beach Bus managed to get in the background. What's even better, the picture is in colour!!! Gives a good idea of the colour of the North Beach Buses back then.
http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=SBS20
http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=SBS20
Last edited by drpeps on Fri May 10, 2013 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
they are great shots
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
boronia wrote:This bus is up for sale on ebay -
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/-/330909809718
but it seems to have a Leyland dashboard.
For info of interested ATDB members, the possibility of acquiring this Leyland OPS4 situated in the Cue area (on a Murchison emerald lease), or parts from it, has recently been discussed by the BPSWA committee. However, it was agreed that the logistics and costs involved are just too great in relation to the amount of potentially useful parts that MIGHT be retrieved. So far as BPSWA is concerned, this old Leyland can continue to RIP where it lies. Sad, but realistic. And in agreement with Dennis96's assessment.Dennis96 wrote:Leyland OPS4 - ex Metro Omnibus Co / MTT 84 if my memory is correct. Not sure if the engine is amongst the bits and pieces scattered around. In the Cue or Meekatharra area. Best left where it is.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Some further progress has been made with applying protection to North Beach 1 in the form of paint on metalwork and plastic film on open window apertures. The radiator grille has been bolted into its proper place, minus the stainless steel trims of course, which are being kept in safe storage. Hopefully, the following pic taken earlier today gives a reasonable idea of the progress thus far.
Still quite a few hours of scraper and brush wielding to go, though !
Still quite a few hours of scraper and brush wielding to go, though !
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
looking progressed.....good to see....worth the effort
- panther998
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
There has been some very helpful information about destination displays emanating from discussion in this somewhat 'parallel' thread - http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... 46&t=72811.
Hopefully, drpeps, Dennis96, and others, can supply similar insights in this one.
In a few of the images showing North Beach BC buses that I have access to, there is a logo painted on the cream coloured lower side panels, usually about one third of the way along from the front of the bus. So far as I can ascertain from these hazy images, the logo MIGHT have looked something like the rough sketch in the pdf viewable here - http://members.iinet.net.au/~seedee/BPS ... y_logo.pdf.
As the application to North Beach 1 of a reasonable facsimile of the actual logo would give a wee bit more of a 'finishing touch', I'm hoping for some guidance from knowledgeable members as to how far from, or maybe near to, authenticity the above sketch might be ....
Hopefully, drpeps, Dennis96, and others, can supply similar insights in this one.
In a few of the images showing North Beach BC buses that I have access to, there is a logo painted on the cream coloured lower side panels, usually about one third of the way along from the front of the bus. So far as I can ascertain from these hazy images, the logo MIGHT have looked something like the rough sketch in the pdf viewable here - http://members.iinet.net.au/~seedee/BPS ... y_logo.pdf.
As the application to North Beach 1 of a reasonable facsimile of the actual logo would give a wee bit more of a 'finishing touch', I'm hoping for some guidance from knowledgeable members as to how far from, or maybe near to, authenticity the above sketch might be ....
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Hi panther998,
I have no memory of what the NBBC logo might have looked like. I do remember the NBBC buses being cream with a green stripe. I just had a look at photos of 16 & 17 (my favourite 2 NBBC buses when I was a kid) on perthbus.info and the "NB" on the logo on these buses appears to have serifs.
I have no memory of what the NBBC logo might have looked like. I do remember the NBBC buses being cream with a green stripe. I just had a look at photos of 16 & 17 (my favourite 2 NBBC buses when I was a kid) on perthbus.info and the "NB" on the logo on these buses appears to have serifs.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Despite constraints of weather and available spare time, work on North Beach 1 has progressed a little over the past week or 2. Latest appearance is as shown below.
As I mentioned previously, my sketch is only meant to convey a 'rough' idea of the logo. Hopefully, with input such as yours, plus further evidence from material held by BPSWA, it will be possible to apply a reasonable rendition of the logo to North Beach 1 in due course.
Based on the perthbus.info photos of 16 (http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=NBBC16) and 17 (http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=NBBC17), plus images in the BPSWA archives of a couple of other NBBC buses, I have to agree with you, drpeps. Definitely had serifs.drpeps wrote:I have no memory of what the NBBC logo might have looked like. I do remember the NBBC buses being cream with a green stripe. I just had a look at photos of 16 & 17 (my favourite 2 NBBC buses when I was a kid) on perthbus.info and the "NB" on the logo on these buses appears to have serifs.
As I mentioned previously, my sketch is only meant to convey a 'rough' idea of the logo. Hopefully, with input such as yours, plus further evidence from material held by BPSWA, it will be possible to apply a reasonable rendition of the logo to North Beach 1 in due course.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Coming along very well.
Saw SBS 20 lurking in the background. Can imagine them racing to Osborne Park/Tuart Hill.
Desto change on NBBC1 to Osborne Park has also been noted.
Saw SBS 20 lurking in the background. Can imagine them racing to Osborne Park/Tuart Hill.
Desto change on NBBC1 to Osborne Park has also been noted.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Thanks, MTT384 - that image helps immensely.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Work continues 'in the background' on the 'lines and signs' aspect. However, a serendipitous combination of fine weather and spare time availability has enabled a wee bit more painting to be done, mostly on the offside and part of the rear. These are the surfaces most exposed to Perth's winter weather with the Dennis in its present location, hence the urgency to protect them to the best possible extent.
Current appearance (Sat 22 June) of North Beach 1 is -
(apologies for the glare off the silver roof - even a typically 'weaker' winter sun tends to thwart many perfectly good cameras when the angle between 'sol' and subject happens to be 'wrong' ...) The rear end now looks thus ...
... compared with this view taken just over 5 weeks previously -
Current appearance (Sat 22 June) of North Beach 1 is -
(apologies for the glare off the silver roof - even a typically 'weaker' winter sun tends to thwart many perfectly good cameras when the angle between 'sol' and subject happens to be 'wrong' ...) The rear end now looks thus ...
... compared with this view taken just over 5 weeks previously -
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Just love No 71 - was it 0-6 equipped?
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
The ever informative and valuable perthbus website should hopefully answer your query - http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGT71Dave Wilson wrote:Just love No 71 - was it 0-6 equipped?
Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Dave,Dave Wilson wrote:Just love No 71 - was it 0-6 equipped?
Yes, the WA Government Tramways Dennis Lancet IV J7 buses had Dennis' O6.76 7.6 litre diesel engine which was mated to their 4 speed crash gearbox with pre-select overdrive fifth. WAGT 71 still has this combination - and it makes a lovely sound.
Of the 24 Dennis Lancet IVs that came to Western Australia, one was a J7A model with Gardner 6LW engine and another J7B with Dennis O6.80 8 litre engine. The Dennis Lancets that ended up with the Metropolitan Omnibus Company (Metro) were modified during the 1950's with a Leyland O600 engines and Leyland gearboxes. This helped standardise matters in a fleet that included a large number of Leyland OPS4 and OPSU buses that had the O600 engine and four-speed manual gearboxes. The Leyland engine/gearbox combination must be longer than the Dennis arrangement as the radiators of the modified full front Dennis buses tended to protrude from the bodywork.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
71 truly is a remarkable looking bus - didn't realise it still had the engine/transmission. That colour scheme (WAGR?) suits it to a tee. I also like North Beach 1 - so good that some of these older WA buses have made it to preservation . How did the preselect overdrive work in terms of gear selection ? What was the selector like?
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Certainly would want your drivers to be well versed. I imagine it wasn't needed all that much. Was the 06 regarded as a good engine ? The 04s that were operated by the DRTT Sydney didn't last long.
Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Normal looking gear stick protruding from the floor. But gear positions reversed to what is more usually found. Lowest gears closer to driver and over drive up against the engine cowling. Reverse awful - move your left leg over to get it in.
In 1982 BPSWA member Terry Duke acquired WAGR Dennis Lancet J3 which was WA Govt Railways fleet number D24 from a chap in Albany, some 400 kilometres south of Perth. I went down with him and we drove it back. The overdrive worked a treat. The bus loped along at 70 - 80 kilometres per hour and when we got to a rise and it slowed, it slipped back into fourth easy as pie. It will be nice when the engine is sorted and it does another country run. The WAGR used their Dennis buses on some quite long runs and on roads that were largely unsealed.
Apart from the two The Lancet IVs that the WAGR had, the others were all used as buses in the Perth metropolitan area. Must have been awful on stop - start bus routes on busy roads, and there was traffic congestion on some roads in Perth in the late 1950's and 1960's before the Freeway system removed a lot of traffic from the inner city arteries.
D24 has since been donated to BPSWA and a comprehensive body restoration and repaint undertaken. The engine requires overhaul as it blows excessive smoke. It was very hard to engage gears and the whole gear change was very sloppy. One of the mechanics has built up a face on the gate and this makes it easier to find gears. But he also built up the other side of the gate which now precludes accessing the overdrive. This is to be rectified.
71, the subject of this thread was new to the Western Australian Government Tramways (WAGT) which was absorbed into the Perth MTT. It later received the MTT dark green and cream livery and became MTT fleet number 404.
In 1982 BPSWA member Terry Duke acquired WAGR Dennis Lancet J3 which was WA Govt Railways fleet number D24 from a chap in Albany, some 400 kilometres south of Perth. I went down with him and we drove it back. The overdrive worked a treat. The bus loped along at 70 - 80 kilometres per hour and when we got to a rise and it slowed, it slipped back into fourth easy as pie. It will be nice when the engine is sorted and it does another country run. The WAGR used their Dennis buses on some quite long runs and on roads that were largely unsealed.
Apart from the two The Lancet IVs that the WAGR had, the others were all used as buses in the Perth metropolitan area. Must have been awful on stop - start bus routes on busy roads, and there was traffic congestion on some roads in Perth in the late 1950's and 1960's before the Freeway system removed a lot of traffic from the inner city arteries.
D24 has since been donated to BPSWA and a comprehensive body restoration and repaint undertaken. The engine requires overhaul as it blows excessive smoke. It was very hard to engage gears and the whole gear change was very sloppy. One of the mechanics has built up a face on the gate and this makes it easier to find gears. But he also built up the other side of the gate which now precludes accessing the overdrive. This is to be rectified.
71, the subject of this thread was new to the Western Australian Government Tramways (WAGT) which was absorbed into the Perth MTT. It later received the MTT dark green and cream livery and became MTT fleet number 404.
Last edited by Dennis96 on Sun Jun 23, 2013 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs
Were there any Lancet 2s in WA? Love to see a photo of D23.