BPSWA’s Dennis Lancet IVs

[panther998]

Some ATDB members may not be aware that, earlier this year, BPSWA procured its second Dennis Lancet IV in the shape of former WA Government Tramways 71 (http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=WAGT71). The bus had served as a storage room (and occasionally as ‘overflow accommodation’) at the Cunderdin Caravan Park for many years. Somewhat appropriately, Dennis96 was instrumental in securing its purchase and transport to Whiteman Park in January, and has been quite busy with paint and brushes since its arrival, transforming the 1950 bus into a semblance of its former WAGT glory. Not an easy task given that some areas of its body, built by Charles Hope in Brisbane (QLD), are infected with corrosion (steel cancer).

In early April, one of BPSWA’s volunteer mechanics managed to start the Dennis engine and drive 71 a short distance along the Depot access road. Unfortunately, the hydraulic brakes were not functioning, so the handbrake had to be relied upon for any semblance of deceleration, consequently it was quite a slow trip. Only 5 of the 6 cylinders were firing, but the fact that any of them did so after such a long period of inactivity in Cunderdin is astonishing and remarkable.

The following ‘before and after’ series of photos will hopefully give members / readers an idea of the progress to date. I must emphasise that 71 is only being ‘cosmetically’ restored at this stage. It is hoped that the new paint will help to preserve it until a decision on its long term future is made.

Cunderdin Caravan Park, 16 Feb 2012, nearside view

WAGT71_Cunderdin_nsf-P1070109crcd.jpg (190.91 KiB) Viewed 4861 times

Cunderdin Caravan Park, 16 Feb 2012, offside view

WAGT71_Cunderdin_osf-P1070107crcd.jpg (208.94 KiB) Viewed 4861 times

BPSWA Depot, 28 Jan 2013, offside

WAGT71_BPSWA_osf-Pb1000433rcd.jpg (175 KiB) Viewed 4861 times

Returning to BPSWA Depot after brief trip, 04 Apr 2013

WAGT71_BPSWA_nsf-Pb1020012crcd.jpg (171.45 KiB) Viewed 4861 times

BPSWA Depot with WAGT Guy Arab III ex 101, 08 Apr 2013

WAGT71^101_BPSWA_nsf-Pb1020081crcd.jpg (151.2 KiB) Viewed 4861 times

WAGT 71 joins former North Beach Bus Company (NBBC) No 1 (http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=NBBC1), which was also new in 1950 but with body built by Bolton & Sons in West Perth. This bus, which is minus its engine and gearbox, was secured for preservation many years ago by Society member John Young. He also obtained a Dennis 6 cylinder engine to suit, and donated the bus and engine to BPSWA 3 or 4 years ago.
This week, NBBC 1 was relocated to Whiteman Park and positioned alongside WAGT 71. Interestingly, both buses entered MTT service in 1960-61 and ended up with consecutive fleet numbers, 405 and 404 respectively.

BPSWA Depot, 11 Apr 2013, NBBC 1 and WAGT 71, osf

NBBC1^WAGT71_BPSWA_osf-Pb1020093crcd.jpg (165.85 KiB) Viewed 4861 times

In the short to medium term, the intention is to ‘cosmetically’ repaint NBBC 1 in its original colours, again to preserve it until its full restoration can be programmed in the longer term.

And for those observant folk who happen to notice little details like headlights - YES, the originals have been removed from 71 for safe-keeping and replaced with 'dummy versions' made from stainless steel mixing bowls.
Oh - and if anyone knows the whereabouts of a spare Dennis 5-speed gearbox (with pre-select 5th gear) suitable for Lancet III and IV units, PLEASE do PM me or Dennis96

[adx666]

Stainless steel mixing bowls! Ingenious!

Many thanks for this most informative thread, I had no idea what these buses were!

[panther998]

i appreciate your kind and positive comments, ADX666. Given that both buses are definitely 'works-in-progress', I aim to post some further updates in coming months.

Along with another thread depicting BPSWA's other recent acquisition, a Daimler CVG5 that began its 'life' as Scarborough Bus Service 20.
So, please - 'stay tuned' ....

[Bedford-29]

There happy no comments about sheds or lack of storage.

[Mr OC Benz]

Don't make comments like that Bedford-29, it is already the case! Overflowing is an understatement unfortunately. Depot space and land availability can't keep up with bus acquisitions for preservation.

[Dennis96]

You keep going finding buses for preservation over there you won`t beable to fit them in the shed or outside.

Would you like to do something positive such as make a donation that can be put towards a storage shed for our historic buses?

Your comment is not helpful and provides food for those who would prefer BPSWA let any further opportunities to acquire buses that have historic significance, or will fill a glaring gap in the collection slip by.

[Herbert]

... But should one allow an irreplaceable historic relic go for scrap because "it may get too hard finding a home for it", or should the Society seize an opportunity whist it exists? ...

Very regrettably there are some who call themselves "bus enthusiasts" who are quite willing to block the saving of an "irreplaceable historic relic"... Enough said.

[panther998]

Enough said.

Herbert, not sure where your quote from Dennis96 appears, but I request some clarification about your own words, if you will be so kind.
Does your comment 'Enough said.' refer only to your good self, or to any and all ATDB participants ?

I ask the above for 2 reasons -
a) ATDB is a recognised and well respected forum for open and frank discussion amongst transport enthusiasts in this great country, and as one such enthusiast, I would like to contribute my own view on the 'related subject' raised in this thread I started, by way of right of reply. However, I am averse to spending my valuable time on typing out my own views and posting them, only to have them removed by a moderator, and possibly see the thread locked, on the basis of 'Enough has been said'.
b) In common with a great many bus enthusiasts, and for more years than I can accurately number, I have admired your dedication and considerable efforts as both a bus enthusiast and a bus historian, particularly when it comes to the quite unparalled and highly valued website you created and continue to maintain (http://www.perthbus.info/). Consequently, I (just one out of many, surely) would be deeply dismayed if you have somehow 'closed your mind' to, or 'ruled out' further comment by anyone, including yourself, on what is undoubtedly a key and far reaching element in bus preservation. Agreement on what is, or is likely to be, truly important for many decades to come.

To me, every bus enthusiast deserves to be heard on matters that give them concern about bus preservation, and I believe (or certainly hope) that you share that view, Herbert. The innate nature of humans means that listening to (heeding) what an individual has to say carries no firm compulsion or commitment to agree with them, it is true. But failing to listen, or to give some credence, to a different or opposing view invariably diminishes both the democratic process and those individuals who prefer to 'turn a deaf ear' to certain opinions which they happen to find unpalatable or repulsive, etc. Finding a 'middle ground' or a 'mutually acceptable outcome' is more often achieved by consensus reached after healthy discussion and genuine attempts to comprehend what others think or wish, seldom (if ever) by deriding the views and desires of others.

Herbert, I am extremely disinclined to believe that you are, or could ever be, such a 'deaf ear' person when it comes to buses, their history and their preservation, hence my puzzlement by your words and my request for clarification as above.

[PoweredByCNG]

I have been made aware of a certain matter at hand and to be fair, I feel disappointed as an enthusiast that there are certain people out there who claim to be 'enthusiasts' who would have no problems letting significant historic pieces disintegrate into the ground even if resources are available in order to secure for the future. Opportunities to acquire and restore historic pieces do not arise on a daily basis, and it would be unwise to turn good opportunities down for the sake of personal satisfaction. Saying that the BPSWA can only 'do so much' is, in my eyes, in contradiction to the whole enthusiast movement and a pathetic form of an excuse. I apologise if this post offends anyone, but there are individuals such as myself making the effort to acquire, restore and preserve buses because:
a) the larger organisations seem to have no interest in the acquisition of buses that represent only a small percentage of what operates / operated as part of the MTT / Transperth fleet during a given period,
b) the larger organisations seem to not show any form of proactivity in acquiring representitive buses that are of any significance (e.g. firsts, lasts, milestones, prototypes / demonstrators, etc.) in relation to the rest of a particular class to drivers, other enthusiasts or the general public, and
c) the larger organisations consist mainly of more senior members who seem to show scant regard for vehicles manufactured post-1975.

Unfortunately, there are many who aspire to acquiring, restoring and preserving (a) bus(es) but lack the resources to make any such projects possible. This has the effect of potentially limiting the representation of certain periods for the future. The 1970s, 1980s and 1990s were three decades that saw major changes to what was considered 'normal' in relation to bus acquisition in Perth (and in Australia as a whole). This is why I feel that modern buses need to be thoroughly represented.

One last thing I want to mention here is this: As enthusiasts, we should all work towards the same objectives. There's absolutely no reason to work against each other as all you're doing is placing the burden on others who wish to do the same thing.

(I would again like to apologise to those who I may have offended in this post. Particular mention goes to the majority of BPSWA members who want the best for everyone involved and are passionate about our wonderful hobby.)

[Dennis96]

c) the larger organisations consist mainly of more senior members who seem to show scant regard for vehicles manufactured post-1975.

(I would again like to apologise to those who I may have offended in this post. Particular mention goes to the majority of BPSWA members who want the best for everyone involved and are passionate about our wonderful hobby.)

PBCNG /DL,

Definitely no offence from my corner of the paddock and you have made some good and valid observations. But there are constraints to what BPSWA can do and people like yourself that are preserving buses privately are taking a huge amount of pressure from BPS which in reality is biting/has bitten off more than it can reasonably chew. Many people (myself included) have bought their own bus - with dreams and stars. And that bus is now part of the BPS collection, albeit not restored, but it still exists and is the only representative from its pre-MTT fleet in preservation. Mind you it is easier to manage a running and intact bus that has come direct form Transperth service than a wreck that was used as shearer's quarters and last saw a workshop decades ago!

This thread has the potential to have some robust discussion. If this occurs I hope it will develop constructively too.

BPSWA is a democratic institution bound by a Constitution. All positions in its managing Council come up for re-election each year and there is no reason why any member can't nominate for any position. The problem is usually to find sufficient members to fill the nine elected positions each year. BPSWA was one short at the last annual general meeting and the position of Vice President is vacant. And some of those who do nominate would more than willingly step aside if there are other members prepared to take on positions. But managing BPS as a member of its Council would require that person to take on an active role in running the Society. They have to take charge of some facet of its activities. This does not necessarily mean doing everything yourself, but making sure it gets done and a good manager will always delegate and encourage others to help.

Age is not a criteria either, but clearly retired people seem to have more extra-curricular time to spend running a club or organisation. It would be a wonderful thing if those in the ATDB community were all members of BPS and if members, are prepared to take on some role. A good example is to man the BPSWA display stand at the forthcoming Classic Car Show on 28th April, or help sort out display promotional photos and materials. There is so much work that can be done from home too. You don't have to be retired or unemployed and able to go to Whiteman Park on Tuesdays. And the Council can set its agendas as to when and where it meets. So if there are some Council members, for instance still in the workforce and unable to meet during the day on a week day, then the incoming Council can easily change the time/venue to suit its membership. By joining a club and becoming involved is how you can influence its culture and help develop it so that it does meet your aims or objectives. With a community of active younger members that are prepared to organise events or activities on weekends, BPS will be able to do more and not be perceived as an organisation for oldies. Mercedes-Benz 339 requires an engine overhaul which one of BPS' members (under 30 years of age) will pull together. Others are more than welcome to help on weekends.

In the meantime, the older generation are restoring buses that younger people have less affinity for. But this is how they will become restored exhibits. It is quite logical that younger people will be less inclined to work on buses that were out of service well before that wore nappies. And I feel that way with some of BPS' older exhibits. To me they are curiosity pieces, but I am mighty glad that members who are, say 20 or 30 years older than I am and did the hard yards and restored them. 1930's, 40's or 50's era buses are for these guys what the Mercedes O305 and O405 buses are for the younger enthusiasts of today.

[drpeps]

WAGT 71 joins former North Beach Bus Company (NBBC) No 1 (http://perthbus.info/report.php?vid=NBBC1), which was also new in 1950 but with body built by Bolton & Sons in West Perth. This bus, which is minus its engine and gearbox, was secured for preservation many years ago by Society member John Young. He also obtained a Dennis 6 cylinder engine to suit, and donated the bus and engine to BPSWA 3 or 4 years ago.
This week, NBBC 1 was relocated to Whiteman Park and positioned alongside WAGT 71. Interestingly, both buses entered MTT service in 1960-61 and ended up with consecutive fleet numbers, 405 and 404 respectively.

Growing up in Osborne Park in the 50's, there is every chance I rode in NBBC1 when it was a North Beach Bus Company bus. Great to see a bus from my childhood still in existence.

[boronia]

This bus is up for sale on ebay

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/-/330909809718

but it seems to have a Leyland dashboard.

[Dennis96]

Leyland OPS4 - ex Metro Omnibus Co / MTT 84 if my memory is correct. Not sure if the engine is amongst the bits and pieces scattered around. In the Cue or Meekatharra area. Best left where it is.

[adx666]

Funny it is described as a Dennis!

You can bet if it wasn't so bloody far away it would be listed for more than 99c !

[Dennis96]

My beady eye spies a beautiful Leyland alloy wheel trim or nut guard ring among the debris inside it, plus some seats. The Campbell and Mannix timber frame body appears to be in excellent condition too. The dry climate seems to have reduced deterioration to almost non existent levels and it has a wonderful set of half drop windows. The metal frame pressings are priceless and almost impossible to obtain these days.

As you say, what a pity it is so far away and we already have two OPS4's in preservation (including Metro 81) plus an OPS4 tow wagon.

[Herbert]

... I require and request some clarification...

You know exactly what I'm talking about, so enough of your pedantic waffle. Well done. Your objective has been achieved. The bus in question has been sold for $1500 for scrap. Dare I wonder whether you would have been so enthusiastic to have blocked the saving of Riverton 5 if the opportunity had arisen?

The Cue OPS4's mis-identification as a "Dennis" stems from the original report some years ago that the bus was numbered 48, which lead to a question as to whether it was one of the two Dennis Lancet Is that carried that fleet no. Once photos were obtained of the bus it was immediately obvious that it was one of the four wood-framed Campbell & Mannix OPS4s new to Metro. After a little further investigation it was evident that dyslexia prevailed & it was ex-84, not 48.

BPSWA actually has 4 OPS4s, including a film star, with a 5th having been scrapped for parts.

[PoweredByCNG]

The bus in question has been sold for $1500 for scrap.

Excuse my language, but FUUUUUUUCK!!!!

[Bus-1809]

Fantastic... Another interesting and significant member of the MTT fleet not saved, just because it was a "One-Off"... I'm starting to wonder why we even have a museum when certain so called "enthusiasts" seem to only be interested in run of the mill, production units, most of which have no interesting characteristics about them (ie no interesting noises or features that only that particular unit had etc...)

End of rant...

[Bedford-29]

In some letters for us non enthusiast can understand which bus was sold for scrap for $1500 that was blocked for preservation.And I hope you are not blaming anyone for this disaster cause of something was said on ATDB.

[adx666]

Post above corrected so no need to question it!

[wayfarer]

Which bus are we talking about here?? If It's something that was on the disposal chopping block recently I think I have a good idea what it might have been. dang, I'm sure If someone mentioned something earlier there would have been numerous bus enthusiasts that would have been more than happy to throw in a couple of hundred dollars each to save such a relic, I know I would. I am not a member of BPSWA yet, I will be sometime, just last time I tried to join I was a little nonplussed about certain puzzled attitudes that I was into historic buses but had never been a bus driver. I mean is that a prerequisite to be an enthusiast??

[Bus-1809]

Wayfarer, it's not a recent withdrawal...

[adx666]

Which bus are we talking about here?? If It's something that was on the disposal chopping block recently I think I have a good idea what it might have been. dang, I'm sure If someone mentioned something earlier there would have been numerous bus enthusiasts that would have been more than happy to throw in a couple of hundred dollars each to save such a relic, I know I would. I am not a member of BPSWA yet, I will be sometime, just last time I tried to join I was a little nonplussed about certain puzzled attitudes that I was into historic buses but had never been a bus driver. I mean is that a prerequisite to be an enthusiast??

I've been a member of BPSWA for years and have never worked with or driven buses.

Rest assured anyone can join the BPSWA!

[drpeps]

I reckon it's just as important to preserve "run of the mill" buses as well as "one offs" as this gives a more balanced view of how the scene looked when these older buses were in service.

[boronia]

Leyland OPS4 - ex Metro Omnibus Co / MTT 84 if my memory is correct. Not sure if the engine is amongst the bits and pieces scattered around. In the Cue or Meekatharra area. Best left where it is.

The seller sent me the following info

"Brian this is an update, found old emails from the whiteman crew in my achives(doing some cleaning).

"Thanks for the photos.
By its length it looks to be an Leyland Tiger OPS3.
The body is undoubtedly Campbell & Mannix, thus if it is an OPS3 there is only one contender: former 77 which was sold in 1970 to Transfield.
The only other OPS3 with C&M body was 76, which also went to Transfield but ended up at Soltoggion Bros (see attached).
Certainly not a pre-war Dennis.
Regards,
DU"