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A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby The Inspector » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:36 pm

looks great, job well done
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby Leyland B21 » Fri Oct 08, 2010 12:01 pm

Saw this bus yesterday first hand. The amount of detail tht has gone into it bowled me over. So far with the resturation, not a detail has been missed. Be great to see when its finally completed.

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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby panther998 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:38 am

Leyland B21 wrote:Saw this bus yesterday first hand. The amount of detail that has gone into it bowled me over. So far with the restoration, not a detail has been missed. Be great to see it when it's finally completed.
Jase

Effusive praise indeed, and deeply appreciated by BPSWA members involved in this project, I am certain.
BUT --- NOT fully deserved, I'm afraid! :!: :shock: :oops:

Please believe that I am extremely sorry to disillusion you, Leyland B21 (and others), but in truth, as someone closely involved with this metamorphosis, I cannot stand mutely aside while anyone (including you) is / might be shepherded into a mistaken belief that this bus has been transformed 'without blemish' into a 'flawless' rendition of the erstwhile City Clipper Hino 933. There are certain deficiencies that you / others might not be aware of .. ..

1) The word 'SERVICE' on the front and rear headers is incorrectly positioned (ie, off-set) relative to the longitudinal centre-line of the bus, resulting in the angled lines on either side (called 'eye-lashes' by some observers) being uneven in relation to the centre-line. By way of evidence of this unfortunate error, please carefully check on the photos the 9 per side 'eye-lashes' above the front windscreen. On the near-side, these end just as the panel starts to curve back to the cant-rail above the door, but on the off-side they wrap around the equivalent curve.

2) The skirt-rail trim strip is painted silver, rather than 'natural' anodised aluminium.

3) Pram hooks are missing from the rear, as are the small stainless steel panel which used to give access to the engine oil filler, and the circular inspection hole in line with the lower pulley.

There are other minor points that are not fully correct for 933, simply because 83 was part of a later batch than 933 and some design changes had been made in the interim. Also, over the years, repair, maintenance and overhaul processes have led to removal of certain original features - such as per 3) above. Even the original 933 would not have been immune from such treatment, of course - very few buses remain unaltered during their working lives, particularly those in a large, well run fleet.
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All the more reason for on-board information

Postby <smarTTrams> » Sat Oct 09, 2010 1:00 pm

panther998 wrote:Effusive praise indeed, and deeply appreciated by BPSWA members involved in this project, I am certain.
BUT --- NOT fully deserved, I'm afraid!

Your detailed list of differences, panther998, is all the more reason to eventually have information in this bus as you promised The Bell Tower in an earlier post:
panther998 wrote:
The Bell Tower wrote:- there should be information inside the bus showing its history and why it has been painted Clipper yellow.

Again, I fully agree. But there are only so many hours available in each day - and so many other tasks to be done. But this one will get done - hopefully, sometime in the near future.

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Re: All the more reason for on-board information

Postby Dennis96 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 10:41 pm

[
The Bell Tower wrote:- there should be information inside the bus showing its history and why it has been painted Clipper yellow.


Again, I fully agree. But there are only so many hours available in each day - and so many other tasks to be done. But this one will get done - hopefully, sometime in the near future.


BPSWA is lacking specific expertise in computerised graphic design and needs a person with th necessary skills to produce the "in bus" material and other publicity and promotional literature/display material. No problems providing the text and relevant illustrations, nor with getting it printed and laminated. Is this a field of Smarttrams expertise ?
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby Leyland B21 » Sun Oct 10, 2010 6:09 am

panther998 wrote:
Leyland B21 wrote:Saw this bus yesterday first hand. The amount of detail that has gone into it bowled me over. So far with the restoration, not a detail has been missed. Be great to see it when it's finally completed.
Jase

Effusive praise indeed, and deeply appreciated by BPSWA members involved in this project, I am certain.
BUT --- NOT fully deserved, I'm afraid! :!: :shock: :oops:

Please believe that I am extremely sorry to disillusion you, Leyland B21 (and others), but in truth, as someone closely involved with this metamorphosis, I cannot stand mutely aside while anyone (including you) is / might be shepherded into a mistaken belief that this bus has been transformed 'without blemish' into a 'flawless' rendition of the erstwhile City Clipper Hino 933. There are certain deficiencies that you / others might not be aware of .. ..

1) The word 'SERVICE' on the front and rear headers is incorrectly positioned (ie, off-set) relative to the longitudinal centre-line of the bus, resulting in the angled lines on either side (called 'eye-lashes' by some observers) being uneven in relation to the centre-line. By way of evidence of this unfortunate error, please carefully check on the photos the 9 per side 'eye-lashes' above the front windscreen. On the near-side, these end just as the panel starts to curve back to the cant-rail above the door, but on the off-side they wrap around the equivalent curve.

2) The skirt-rail trim strip is painted silver, rather than 'natural' anodised aluminium.

3) Pram hooks are missing from the rear, as are the small stainless steel panel which used to give access to the engine oil filler, and the circular inspection hole in line with the lower pulley.

There are other minor points that are not fully correct for 933, simply because 83 was part of a later batch than 933 and some design changes had been made in the interim. Also, over the years, repair, maintenance and overhaul processes have led to removal of certain original features - such as per 3) above. Even the original 933 would not have been immune from such treatment, of course - very few buses remain unaltered during their working lives, particularly those in a large, well run fleet.


I actually pointed out that pram hooks were missing off a few of the fleet located there but its not an overall issue. I noticed the odd flaw and pointed it out, Leighs 339 is an example. I stated that the paint job was so darn close but i recognised it was off colour a tad and was still satisfied that the effort and money spent was so darn close, it still looked like the real piece of history it should. I was still never-the-less impressed with the amount of work that has been put into the historical fleet. All flaws aside, for those like urself etc that are closely involved, you deserve the praise and as i stated to Herbert, i only wish i was still living in WA cos i would be active in anyway i could possibly be.

General Public would not notice the difference, although im aware that being meticulous in the nature of BPSWA counts to a high standard. Point is IMO is stand proud of the job that is done so far.

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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby <smarTTrams> » Sun Oct 10, 2010 3:44 pm

Leyland B21 wrote:General Public would not notice the difference, although im aware that being meticulous in the nature of BPSWA counts to a high standard. Point is IMO is stand proud of the job that is done so far.

Good point about the general public not noticing the differences. For most people seeing and getting in this bus would, for all intents and purposes, fully re-create the Yellow Clipper experience.

So perhaps for those enthusiasts who want to know about the differences, it may be enough to put the details on the BPSWA website. There could be simple information in the bus stating that this is not an actual clipper bus and referring people to the website page for details*.

For example, I despise the Fremantle tourist trams because they are just motor buses. Yet riding in one can re-create the Fremantle tram experience thanks to the following:
  • Livery is quite close to the original livery (as is the interior colour scheme)
  • Windows outside are shaped/painted to indicate the originals
  • I'm pretty sure that the windows inside have clips and the same method of opening as the originals
  • I'm really rusty on this one, but I think they have blinds for the windows similar to the originals
  • Seats are designed and upholstered similar in style to the originals
  • Not all, but at least some of the seat backs can be reversed so that a group of four people can sit face to face, as in the originals
There are probably other details that I can't now remember, but I was amazed at how such a rough approximation re-created childhood experiences riding Fremantle trams!

The BPSWA team's work on this "pretend" Yellow Clipper is so very close to the original that it works fine for all but the serious bus enthusiast. So perhaps a simple sign in the bus and full details on the website* would solve the problem of preparing a laminated print version suitable for putting in the bus, though I'm sure you would ideally want to be consistent from bus to bus.

Leyland B21 also wrote:Point is IMO is stand proud of the job that is done so far.

Yes, I agree.

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* Dennis96 informs me there is no BPSWA website as yet, so clearly my suggestion isn't any help.
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby adx666 » Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:08 pm

"Better to do something imperfectly than to do nothing flawlessly"

The BPSWA members who perform these restorations are such perfectionists and they are their own harshest critics. From what I have seen, you cant help but appreciate the efforts put in and the imperfections are never glaringly obvious anyway, if they are even noticable at all!
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby adx666 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:24 pm

1 thing I had been meaning to ask, how did you decide which one to represent, ie 932 or 933. Did you draw straws? :lol:
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby Dennis96 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 10:29 pm

ADX666 wrote:1 thing I had been meaning to ask, how did you decide which one to represent, ie 932 or 933. Did you draw straws? :lol:


Good question Oh glorious railcar with larger AEC engines - its one for Panther998 to answer. Straws, toss of a coin, benign dictatorship all come to mind ....
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby adx666 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 10:23 am

I dont suppose it matters, maybe 1 day 1 of each clipper color will be represented in the BPS fleet.

Does anyone know when this bus will be out and about during the heritage weekend, I would like to get some shots of her driving around the city but wont have a great deal of spare time to hang around.
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby Mr OC Benz » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:25 pm

Weekend of 13th and 14th of November 2010. The route was meant to follow the original Yellow Clipper but apparantly roadworks are being undertaken at that time on parts of the old Yellow City Clipper route. However service departs hourly from WSBS on both days but I think also from what I head is that it is pre-booked. One of the more in the know BPSWA members would know more than me.
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby adx666 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:28 pm

No probs, plenty of time to find out, I dont want to ride her, just get some shots!
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby tbc1983 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:49 pm

ADX666 wrote:No probs, plenty of time to find out, I dont want to ride her, just get some shots!


This a transport forum, not a voyeurism forum!! :evil:

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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby jonwil » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:37 pm

Anyone here got a link to a map of the old yellow clipper route?
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby Mr OC Benz » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:43 pm

When I was sorting out timetable/brochure archives at BPSWA, I bumped into the Old Clipper guide. Can't remember what the Yellow City Clipper route was though.
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby Dennis96 » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:50 pm

Original Yellow Clipper route was:-

Mon - Fri Perth Central Bus Station (PCBS) stand outside the MTT enquiry office - left into Wellington Street, - right into William Street - the right arrow filter at the traffic lights was installed for the Yellow Clipper. Left into St Georges Terrace, left into Irwin Street, left into Hay Street, right into Barrack Street, left into Wellington Street and back to the PCBS.

The Saturday (mornings IIRC) was a short working that turned left into Barrack Street from St Georges Terrace.

The route was subsequently extended to Victoria Avenue, possibly because Irwin Street between Hay Street and St Georges Terrace became one way southbound.

For younger readers of this Board, PCBS was later renamed Wellington Street Bus Station.
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby jonwil » Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:49 am

Thanks for the info.
I am guessing that its the roadworks on William Street that require the re-creation to divert from the original route.
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby adx666 » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:48 pm

Pretty succinct route, but quite a few good photography positions along it!
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby panther998 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:07 am

Apologies for my online 'silence' of late - been busy preparing for another 'imminent' sign-writing attempt / effort (ie, ex WAGRRS Dennis D24), among other things.
A few recent comments /queries have been answered partially / inaccurately / not at all, so I will do what I can to rectify errors / enlighten readers' further.
Dennis96 wrote:
ADX666 wrote:1 thing I had been meaning to ask, how did you decide which one to represent, ie 932 or 933. Did you draw straws? :lol:
Good question Oh glorious railcar with larger AEC engines - it's one for panther998 to answer. Straws, toss of a coin, benign dictatorship, all come to mind.
Raw (or 'simple' for those who prefer an alternate term) logic, actually, Dennis96. Both fleet numbers have a common last digit - 3.
{Gawrd - I hope that doesn't come across like something which might emanate from a benevolent dictator ... ... :? :(

ADX666 wrote:I don't suppose it matters, maybe 1 day 1 of each Clipper colour will be represented in the BPS fleet?

I happen to think this does matter in some respects, BUT I very much doubt such a scenario will happen, ADX666. BPSWA's collection policy tends to rule out such a possibility, for one thing. And one must inevitably ask - how far does a 'Clipper Collection' really need to extend ? Logically, there is an argument for all five basic iterations of City Clipper livery to be represented - but doing so using actual buses suitably 'decorated' is hardly practical or desirable compared with having a comprehensive display of appropriate photographs.

To me, this (eternal) issue is about 'Wish lists' - most (all?) transport enthusiasts have their personal favourites, etc, but the limitations BPSWA faces in terms of resources (to restore / maintain / house buses in protected storage) inevitably mean some aspirations will be 'stillborn', others heavily constrained or modified. Dreams of 'what might / should be' are part of human nature and important motivators, without doubt. But an even greater certainty is that 'reality bites', with often alarming frequency - meaning that many dreams are destined to fade over time, or even doomed to be smashed irreparably before they gain much volition. Sorry to 'wax philosophical', but I've been around for a few years and base the above on some experience, both bitter and sweet, of such things.

ADX666 wrote:Does anyone know when this bus will be out and about during the heritage weekend? I would like to get some shots of her driving around the city but won't have a great deal of spare time to hang around.
Final arrangements have yet to be confirmed, but BPSWA's proposed times ex PCBS (WSBS to younger generations) on both days are each hour from 10:30 to 14:30 (5 trips daily), with bookings for travel to be made via links on the Heritage Perth site - http://heritageperth.com.au/
Read on for historic / intended route details.

Dennis96 wrote:Original Yellow Clipper route was:-
Mon - Fri : Perth Central Bus Station (PCBS) stand outside the MTT enquiry office - left into Wellington Street, right into William Street - the right arrow filter at the traffic lights was installed for the Yellow Clipper - left into St Georges Terrace, left into Irwin Street, left into Hay Street, right into Barrack Street, left into Wellington Street and back to the PCBS.
The Saturday (mornings IIRC) was a short working that turned left into Barrack Street from St Georges Terrace.
The route was subsequently extended to Victoria Avenue, possibly because Irwin Street between Hay Street and St Georges Terrace became one way southbound.
For younger readers of this Board, PCBS was later renamed Wellington Street Bus Station.

Alas, Dennis96 and I differ on what actually constituted the original Yellow route.
Historical records confirm that the yellow City Clipper service commenced operating on Monday 3 September 1973, some 6 months after the PCBS opened.
(source - MTT Annual Report for year ended 30/06/74)
My very first visit to Perth was in February 1974, when the service had been operating for about 5 months. At the time, I observed and photographed yellow Clipper buses turning from St Georges Tce into Barrack St on weekdays, NOT into Irwin St. Based on files I sighted (but alas did not copy) during the early part of my 15 year stint as a Transperth service planner, I am reasonably confident that the change to Irwin Street did not occur until the red City Clipper routes were introduced on Monday 24 June 1974. My understanding is that this alteration to the yellow route was requested by City of Perth specifically to ensure the most direct / quickest bus access between PCBS and Council House.

By the time of my 3rd visit and subsequent relocation to Perth in March 1976, the yellow route had definitely been extended to Victoria Ave, an adjustment made at the request of City of Perth following representations from staff and 'customers' for direct / quick bus access between PCBS and the Australian Taxation Office at 1 St Georges Tce - a building since modified into a hotel.

It is this 3rd, and longest lived, version of the yellow City Clipper route that '933' will traverse on Heritage weekend - well, except for the section of St Georges Tce between William and Barrack Streets, which will seemingly be closed due to construction work of some description. The parallel section of The Esplanade will be used instead.
Intrigued by how some enthusiasts are selective in remembering, or forgetting - maybe blinding them to reality http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=42961
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby adx666 » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:48 am

Truly enlightening, many thanks Panther998.

I am looking forward to seeing 933 on the yellow clipper route again....
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby Mr OC Benz » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:53 pm

**Cough** 83... I look forward to seeing it in the city also and getting strange looks from people!
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby jonwil » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:43 am

I will have to get out there with my camera and get some shots. Not everyday you get to see a Hino yellow clipper driving through the streets of Perth :)
Congrats to the BPSWA team getting this fine machine looking as good as they have.
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby wayfarer » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:36 am

better spread the word peoples, as there are still heaps of seats left on these rides. I'll see you there on saturday!
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Re: A 'pretend' Yellow City Clipper ...

Postby panther998 » Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:21 pm

Well - it actually (finally) happened - 83 / 933 successfully completed the 're-enactment' of the former yellow City Clipper service over the 2 Heritage Days, with 5 trips per day. Ridership was disappointingly low on most runs, but for me it was heartening to see many bus enthusiasts (and other folk) taking copious pix, and to meet several ATDB members who took the opportunity to record and savour this somewhat rare, even historic, 'happening'. Hopefully, some of their images will appear soon in a separate thread.

Restored 1951 Guy Arab III ex WAGT 101 on static display in Hay Street just east of the Town Hall also drew many admiring comments and evoked a plethora of fond memories for a (small) multitude of people. To view a short vid clip of the Hino passing the Guy this afternoon (Sun 14th), check out -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41378227@N04/5173850675/in/photostream/
Intrigued by how some enthusiasts are selective in remembering, or forgetting - maybe blinding them to reality http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=42961
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