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2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Melbourne / Victoria Transport Discussion

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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby burrumbus » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:18 pm

Nicely put krustyklo.
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Bus retendering

Postby Roderick Smith » Thu Mar 02, 2017 11:35 pm

Melbourne Express: Thursday, February 16, 2017.
8.23 I've been getting a few emails about how to improve Melbourne's bus network. Even though the population is growing and some areas are only serviced by buses, patronage has been decreasing.
A common theme in the emails is better connections with train timetables.
Reader Zoe had these three suggestions on ways the bus network could be improved:
1) services run more frequently and connect up with rail and tram services.
2) more routes and dedicated bus interchanges that allow people to readily swap routes partway through a journey.
3) better infrastructure to support people using them - I have seen people sitting on the pavement. It is appropriate that there are bus shelters at regular points on a bus route particularly given how hot/wet/windy it can sometimes get in Melbourne. Also secure bike parking should also be considered at some shelters where riders might choose to ride part of the journey and then take a bus for the remaining trip into town... this might see more women take up riding.
Most of the contacts for Melbourne's bus network will be opened up for the first time in generations.
The state government is hoping this shake-up in the network will improve the popularity of buses, which cost taxpayers $600 million a year but are actually decreasing in patronage.
How do you think Melbourne's bus network could be improved? Let me know.
Government's $600 million fix to lure commuters back to buses.
A bus. Photo: Wayne Hawkins
There were some reports earlier that the 6.29 up Eltham had been cancelled. It has been reinstated.
www.theage.com.au/victoria/melbourne-ex ... udfai.html.

February 15 2017 Government's $600 million fix to lure commuters back to buses .
Decades-old, family-owned bus contracts could be cast aside as the Victorian government tries to turn around the least popular form of public transport.
Twelve of the 13 contracts for Melbourne's bus network will be opened to competition for the first time in generations, in a bid to get more people using the city's lagging bus services.
Melbourne's bus contracts are set to be overhauled. Photo: Michael Clayton-Jones .
Bus passenger numbers have been falling since 2014, despite rapid population growth across the city, particularly in the outer suburbs where buses are often the only available public transport.
In an effort to reverse the declining use of buses, which cost taxpayers $600 million a year, the Andrews government is preparing to kill off the old system of exclusive, heavily subsidised contracts that have existed since the mid-1970s.
More than 300 complaints about buses and drivers were made to PTV's call centre in one week.
Passengers driven round the bend by bad experiences on buses It hopes overhauling the contracts will usher in a better and more popular bus network, with fewer near-empty buses operating on slow, zig-zagging routes across the suburbs.
The old contracts are due to expire next year and, when they do, the government will break with the convention of rolling the contracts over to the 12 incumbent operators, many of whom have worked Melbourne's streets as family-run businesses for almost a century.
Public Transport Minister Jacinta Allan said the current contracts made it difficult to change bus routes and timetables to better meet the needs of passengers.
"There are some challenges in the current arrangements, particularly around the exclusivity that sits in the contracts that really restricts the ability to plan and deliver new bus services now and into the future," Ms Allan said.
Buses travel is the only mode of public transport in Melbourne that is becoming less popular, she said.
"We have to recognise the current arrangements are clearly not attracting people to use bus services."
Hoddle Street intersections are set for major upgrades.
Bus companies will lose their exclusive contracts with government. Photo: Angela Wylie But the incumbents, including Ventura, Dysons, CDC and Kastoria, will have time to adapt to the new regime.
The contractual changes will be brought in over the next 10 years, and the 12 affected bus operators will be given a choice of entering into a shorter-term contract that maintains exclusivity for five years, or a 10-year agreement with tougher performance targets.
The bus industry has long opposed any change to the existing arrangement of exclusive contracts.
Chris Lowe, chief executive of industry group the Bus Association, said it accepted buses had to be more responsive to demand in the age of Uber, but did not support putting existing contracts out to competitive tender.
"The industry supports the government's position to negotiate over the renewal of contracts as opposed to putting them out to competitive tender," Mr Lowe said.
Transdev, which operates 30 per cent of Melbourne's bus routes, will not be affected because it already has a franchise agreement with the state that was awarded through a competitive tender in 2013.
Victoria's Auditor-General analysed the state's bus contracts in 2015 and found they offered "minimal incentives for improving services".
"Many of Melbourne's bus routes currently have long wait times, indirect routes, and do not operate on schedules designed to harmonise well with the rail network or other bus routes," the Auditor-General's report found.
"These issues are longstanding and reduce the usefulness of bus services for commuters and impede patronage growth."
The contracts' pending expiry in 2018 was a "critical" opportunity to improve things, it found.
Related Content:
Transdev won a competitive tender to run 30 per cent of Melbourne's bus network.
Billion-dollar bus contracts not value for money: auditor-general .
www.theage.com.au/victoria/governments- ... udqcd.html
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby V981 » Sat Mar 25, 2017 2:39 am

krustyklo wrote:
The 2013 contracts have demonstrated that Melbourne people are inherently dirty creatures. Just look at the buses concerned and the areas they pass through. Will new or revised operations be able to keep vehicles clean?

Why worry about facts when hyperbole is so much more interesting? :D

Interestingly the operator of the 2013 contracts operates services that pass through areas that might be considered the exclusive domain of other operators.
Using the 902 as an example, the stereotype of Western suburbs residents might suggest they are responsible for much of the damage. Yet, Tullamarine who operates in the Airport West / Broadmeadows area was held up in this very thread as an operator whose buses are in good condition, a view my anecdotal evidence from the few times I have ridden their services would see no reason to contradict. OK, moving through the northern suburbs through Dysons territory. Whilst not perfect, their buses again are usually in pretty good condition, certainly when compared to the ones running the 902. Moving through the Transdev core area, we then come to Ventura territory for the rest of the journey. Whilst people in the south east have a simialr reputation to those in the west, yet Ventura again seem more than able to keep their buses in a fit condition. Not perfect, but pretty good.

I think all the 2013 contracts showed in relation to bus presentation is that a bid made at near cost price or less to get into the Melbourne franchise market and likely take advantage of government contract / scope variations to make the actual profit is going to need more initial financial support than was probably provided in this example if there are to be any semblance of high standards...

A report into Victorian Government ICT projects drew these sorts of conclusions regarding ICT projects: https://www.ombudsman.vic.gov.au/getattachment/d5e69dd1-400d-42cd-a570-9c6b21c4bb1e

There is nothing special about ICT that similar conditions in other departments with lack of expertise in their procurement role and project management won't also exist, with similar outcomes.


The key to keeping your buses looking good from a vandalism point of view is to have a program in place that allows you to remove any graffiti as soon as it is committed. While I don't understand the mentality of a graffiti tagger, what is known is that the offenders get some kind of kick out of seeing their "tags" getting around town on the back of a bus or on a train. By removing it as soon as viably possible, you are removing this kick, and the little ratbags will ultimately soon be finding other things to get their jollies off.

It is also worth noting that your typical tagger in some areas is not who you might think. It's easy to assume the offender is from the outer fringe suburbs on the south east or western side of town where portions of the population tend to be a little more "unwashed" however one of the worst areas in Melbourne for graffiti is actually your more affluent bayside suburbs. Your typical tagger in these parts of town are likely to be adolescents aged between 13-19, from good families of an upper middle or high socio-economic standing, and quite often private school educated.

And to quite frank, there is little that is quite as ridiculous to see than a pasty white private school educated 16 year old named Oliver wandering the streets with a black hoodie on thinking he is Dr Dre. :lol:
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby Alex on the Bus » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:50 am

V981 wrote:It is also worth noting that your typical tagger in some areas is not who you might think. It's easy to assume the offender is from the outer fringe suburbs on the south east or western side of town where portions of the population tend to be a little more "unwashed" however one of the worst areas in Melbourne for graffiti is actually your more affluent bayside suburbs. Your typical tagger in these parts of town are likely to be adolescents aged between 13-19, from good families of an upper middle or high socio-economic standing, and quite often private school educated.


Not to mention being able to afford a good lawyer who can argue that putting a kid like that in juvenile detention would do detrimental things to their career prospects. There was a piece a couple of years back about a private school kid on a driving charge who was let off without conviction pretty much on the back of that argument.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby krustyklo » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:48 am

The key to keeping your buses looking good from a vandalism point of view is to have a program in place that allows you to remove any graffiti as soon as it is committed. While I don't understand the mentality of a graffiti tagger, what is known is that the offenders get some kind of kick out of seeing their "tags" getting around town on the back of a bus or on a train. By removing it as soon as viably possible, you are removing this kick, and the little ratbags will ultimately soon be finding other things to get their jollies off.


I also suspect that part of the problem is that by not removing it quickly, it becomes normative to do it instead of being the exception. The problem with that is that instead of just the "rebellious" / "troublemaker" kids doing it, more mainstream kids start doing it too because the owner of the canvas seemingly doesn't think it's a big enough problem to deal with it. Then we have the broken windows problem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_windows_theory).

It is also worth noting that your typical tagger in some areas is not who you might think. It's easy to assume the offender is from the outer fringe suburbs on the south east or western side of town where portions of the population tend to be a little more "unwashed" however one of the worst areas in Melbourne for graffiti is actually your more affluent bayside suburbs. Your typical tagger in these parts of town are likely to be adolescents aged between 13-19, from good families of an upper middle or high socio-economic standing, and quite often private school educated.


It's been that way for a long time. In the 1980s there used to be a radio talk show on FOXFM on a Sunday night. One night's discussion was the standard "are kids from the western suburbs worse" trope. The most memorable call that night came from a train driver who advocated as you did that the worst behaviour he had seen was on the Sandringham line from school kids from private schools in uniform, or the same kids later at night trashing the trains and being abusive to other passengers. His view was that there was a sense of entitlement that led to the point of view that their parents paid for and owned public infrastructure, being well off, and therefore they had a right to treat it as they wished, along with looking down on other users and treating them accordingly. Whereas western suburbs kids pretty much did the boring mundane routine stuff that largely didn't directly affect others (eg, tagging).

As an aside, I once had a discussion with someone who was trying to suggest that western suburbs kids were much more likely to get pregnant than kids from "better" suburbs. A school teacher walked in, overheard the conversation, and made the observation that he had taught at Sunshine Tech followed by <government school in very wealthy suburb>. His observation was that Sunshine Tech kids were a lot less likely to get pregnant and were very careful not to as pregnancy would pretty much limit their life options. On the other hand, students at wealthy school weren't as worried as mum and dad could afford to arrange child care whilst they finished their schooling.

If anyone has an interest in the area, there are data sets publicly available on teenage at risk behaviour on the data.vic.gov.au and education.vic.gov.au websites, along with local government area summaries on the education.vic.gov.au website.

I might add that despite the moral panic at times, most teenagers I know are law abiding citizens who resent the same problems we do.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby MAN 16.242 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 11:47 am

3 operators have signed up for new contracts so far being Ventura, CDC & Donric. While others are still negotiating.
https://www.premier.vic.gov.au/new-melb ... ers-first/

The Andrews Labor Government has begun overhauling the contracts for Melbourne’s bus network to improve services and put passengers first.

Minister for Public Transport Jacinta Allan today announced the Labor Government has signed new contracts with three metropolitan bus operators, which make up around two thirds of the services to be recontracted.

Ventura, CDC Victoria and Donric have partnered with the Government on the new performance-based contracts which will drive better services for passengers.

More than 117 million trips are taken on Melbourne’s extensive bus network every year, with the industry supporting more than 4,500 local jobs.

The new contracts provide more flexibility to improve and expand services where they are needed most.

The contracts also emphasise on-time running and customer service, to provide passengers with a more professional and reliable service.

The Cornwall family (trading as Ventura) has been operating bus services since 1924, growing from a single route between Box Hill and Melbourne CBD to become Victoria’s largest bus operator.

Donric, another local family-operated business, has been delivering bus services in and around Sunbury and Diggers Rest since the early 1980s.

CDC Victoria began providing bus services in 2009 to passengers in the inner-east and western suburbs of Melbourne and the Greater Cities of Ballarat and Geelong.

The new bus contracts begin 1 July 2018 and will run for 10 years if the operators meet strict performance targets.

Contract negotiations with the remaining metropolitan bus operators are progressing as planned and are expected to be finalised before the contracts expire in June 2018.

Quotes attributable to Minister for Public Transport Jacinta Allan

“We are modernising, expanding and upgrading Melbourne’s extensive bus network to deliver better services for passengers.”

“Our new metropolitan bus contracts put passengers at the centre of bus service design and delivery.”

“It’s great to see both small and large operators working with us on these new contracts that put passengers first.”
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Mon Apr 02, 2018 3:49 pm

Are these contracts put out to tender by PTV or does the transport minster deal direct with the operator before the contract is signed
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:21 pm

What other operators are involved? I suspect it does not include Transdev which still has two years to go until 2020 with an option to extend for 3 years.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby MAN 16.242 » Mon Apr 02, 2018 4:23 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:What other operators are involved? I suspect it does not include Transdev which still has two years to go until 2020 with an option to extend for 3 years.
Pretty much every other Melbourne Goverment contracted route bus operator expect Transdev so Dysons, Sita, Moreland, Etc
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby system improver » Mon Apr 02, 2018 6:56 pm

Campbelltown busboy wrote:Are these contracts put out to tender by PTV or does the transport minster deal direct with the operator before the contract is signed

None of them are out to tender. There is direct negotiation between the operators and the PTV. The operators have a choice between two options. They can accept a five year contract which will largely be a rollover of their current contract. Alternatively, they can accept a 10 year contract. At the end of 10 years there will be a competitive tender and, if the current operator is the loser, they will be required to sell their vehicles to the government so that they can be used by the winner of the tender. Both MBL and Ventura were required to do this when they lost the competitive tender to Transdev. Of course, there was a LNP government in place at the time who were running that process. Competitive tendering was "good" back then, now, according to the egregious David Davis, it's "socialism".
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby scott » Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:09 am

From this morning's Age
https://www.theage.com.au/national/vict ... 4z7fd.html

Collision course: Stoush between bus companies and government

By Timna Jacks
2 April 2018 — 6:30pm

Families who own many of Melbourne's bus services are refusing to give up their decades-old businesses, in the face of an Andrews government bid to buy them out.

A radical government plan to acquire these assets within a decade to create a state-owned public transport bus network has been rejected by nine bus consortiums.

They are refusing to sign new bus contracts, and are furious over what they describe as a government plan to "rob" them of their future business.

Industry insiders estimate that the state government attempt to take over the operators' bus fleets, depots, staff and intellectual property rights within 10 years, will cost taxpayers hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars, as the state government pushes to modernise and improve Melbourne's bus network.

Public Transport Minister Jacinta Allan announced on Monday that the state's biggest bus company, Ventura, and another two operators, Donric and CDC Victoria, signed new 10-year contracts, which will see their assets acquired by the state government when the contracts end.

Ms Allan said the government was "modernising, expanding and upgrading" the bus network to improve the quality of services.

But Chris Lowe, executive director of the Bus Association of Victoria, said after acquiring the assets the government would try to tender out all bus contracts to "cheap and nasty transport services" in a bid to save costs.

Speaking on behalf of the bus companies, Dr Lowe said: "Bureaucrats have been angling for decades at kicking the operators out. They just want a situation where three big multi-enterprises are operating the entire Melbourne bus network."

Dr Lowe said the operators supported tougher punctuality targets, penalties for late running, and a removal of exclusive rights to operate routes in the new contracts, but would not under any circumstances agree to sell off their assets.

"Prior to the 2014 election, Labor promised bus owners that they would not change the current system of awarding bus contracts which has stood the test of time and been beneficial to passengers," he said. "Labor has broken its promise."

Metropolitan bus patronage has flatlined at 122.5 million trips over the 2016/17 financial year, following a decline on previous years.

Over the past three years, punctuality has fallen from 91 per cent to 80 per cent - below a target of 82 per cent.

Heated negotiations over the new contracts have resulted in a public stand-off, with some operators withdrawing their bus replacement services during rail upgrades in Ballarat in early March.

One bus operator, who did not want to be named, said he was not willing to give up assets owned by his family for decades, even if he stood to make a profit in the sale.

"Every bus owner in Melbourne pays between $450,000 to $500,000 for a new bus, we put our houses, our mortgages, and our reputations on the line to fund this ... we are the ones taking on all the risk," they said.

But Andrew Cornwall, managing director of Ventura, which runs 950 buses, employs 1600 people and has 12 depots across Victoria, said he agreed to sign the new contract last week because it was "commercially feasible" for his company.

A government spokeswoman said performance targets are linked to financial incentives under the new contracts, which will kick in on July 1.

Opposition public transport spokesman David Davis accused the government of pushing a "socialist agenda reminiscent of a time before the Berlin Wall fell" by trying to buy the bus infrastructure.

"Every Victorian wants to see a properly functioning bus system that coordinates with other modes effectively and to see value for taxpayers, however this can best be achieved by proper management and negotiation," he said.

The Andrews government would not release the new bus contracts until negotiations with all operators had ended.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby B10BLE » Wed Apr 04, 2018 2:50 am

Public Transport Minister Jacinta Allan announced on Monday that the state's biggest bus company, Ventura, and another two operators, Donric and CDC Victoria, signed new 10-year contracts, which will see their assets acquired by the state government when the contracts end.


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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby Fleet Lists » Wed Apr 04, 2018 8:17 am

Only if they do not again get the contract in 2028. There will be some changes of government by then which could totally change that anyway.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby system improver » Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:15 am

Fleet Lists wrote:Only if they do not again get the contract in 2028. There will be some changes of government by then which could totally change that anyway.

Yes and, so far, the only Victorian Governments that have forced compulsory competitive tending on the industry have been LNP. The Kennett Goverment abolished licences for charter and tour work overnight and with no compensation. People should be careful for what they wish. Companies can choose a rollover of their present contracts for 5 years - no acquisition, compulsory or otherwise, of anything. Contract periods in Victoria have varied over the years - from as little as three years under LCP government in the 1950s to 7 (+3) years under Labor governments. The current contracts were entered into under the Brumby Labor Government and extended by three years under the Andrews Government, as per the contract. In the interim, the Baillieu LNP government used compulsory competitive tendering to take contracts off "local family" companies. And hasn't that worked out well!
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby krustyklo » Wed Apr 04, 2018 12:33 pm

In the interim, the Baillieu LNP government used compulsory competitive tendering to take contracts off "local family" companies. And hasn't that worked out well!

I think the rosy view of "local family companies" is mostly unrelated to whether a bus service is run well or not. Reading through the old comments above, I noted at least one counter-view (from myself) of a "local family company" whose passengers perhaps took a different view of their supposed perfection. Indeed, the unique and novel service quality provided even made it into the local book of short stories "Down Borough" in the first story where the main character describes the bus journey on one of their vehicles in less than glowing terms.

Equally, large multinational companies don't always equate to doing a bad job. Transdev were part of the consortium that ran the first Yarra Trams contract and IIRC there was some surprise on here about how they lost that contract given the allegedly good job they did.

Lest this be seen as bashing local family run companies, I agree at present they do a good job. But I equally suspect that the real issues come down to cost cutting and lowest cost contracting which the current government and opposition party both seem to be infatuated with. Whilst I suspect that if Ventura won the MMBF contract instead of Transdev on similar terms, they would have done a better job managing the operation in a financially constrained environment, I suspect that some of the same issues may well arise in lesser degree purely due to the fact Ventura exist to make a profit as much as Transdev do and there are only so many things you can cut and assets you can sweat and goodwill of staff and others to call on, until the service quality declines.

An interesting (albeit not perfect) comparison would be the late 80s and the time of the bus operator strike. Prior to then the operators did a sterling job of keeping things going in a financially constrained environment. But I suspect that things were starting to get tight and there was probably a growing need to modernise fleets to reduce costs, hence the operator strike. It would be interesting to get an operator view from the time, presumably someone no longer directly involved in the industry, as it may well be instructive to what is possible in reducing costs, and what the red lines are before service quality declines ala Transdev and MMBF.

People should be careful for what they wish. Companies can choose a rollover of their present contracts for 5 years - no acquisition, compulsory or otherwise, of anything.

The problem here is that it would be unusual for a radical enough change in government in such a short space of time to occur to make this tangibly worthwhile if hoping for change back to the status quo. During the five year contract, there will be two elections - the one this year and again in 2022 before the contracts expire in 2023. Obviously the current Labor government's views are known. However, I would expect that the Liberal Party and David Davis are happily rubbing their hands in glee despite the opposition for the sake of opposing. The approach being taken is very much market led and solves a perceived problem the government has had with the industry since the 1980s when they tried to do the same thing in an underhanded way, which led to their downfall.

Given the issue is hardly likely to inspire a voter led rebellion against the Labor party at an election, their policy is unlikely to change at either of the next two elections. Hence it can be assumed that the 5 year contract is a stay of execution and there are too many unknowns about what the next contract will look like - at best it may well be further expense negotiating a contract which is a five year version of the current ten year version on offer - an expense which could be saved by taking the ten year offer in the first place. Worse still, it could be worse than the ten year contract on offer with more punitive conditions. At the very worst, the government could offer a "take it or leave it" contract, and then suggest the operators run it themselves if they don't take it. Then retender to other operators once they hand back the routes. I could foresee this happening under at least one brand of government - being so soon after a state election it would be a relatively short kerfuffle that will be forgotten before it matters.

The best bet for the bus industry might have been a unified approach. However, that option seems off the cards with some companies accepting the offer with others still seemingly to decide and inclined against it. Truly united we stand, divided we fall.

The government have been quite clever here - the operators seemingly have the option of keeping their businesses with no change so no risk of Driver vs. MTA mk II. Yet there is an implied stick in the refusal to do what the government want such that at least 3 operators have gone for the carrot - which may well be the best bet in the long run if they can keep winning contracts. My concern is the way that operators are being pressured to potentially give up their family run and grown businesses. Yet I guess once you take the government money, you become effectively government contractors with all that entails.

Lastly, it should be noted that for all of the statements about flexible contracting improving standards, MMBF stands as an example of how it got worse with a contract renewal. And there are plenty of examples of where bus networks and routes changed where operated by incumbent operators - both in terms of recent network changes such as Plenty Valley, Wyndham, etc. as well as the wholesale changes in some areas in the 90s. Ultimately it comes down to management, negotiation with existing operators, and fair compensation when operators lose out from changes. It seems the last decade of governments are intent on getting something for nothing, and that this is what this is really about. So how is that Transdev Greenfields timetable with 10 minute frequencies on most major routes going... :roll:
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby Linto63 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:10 am

Appears the government has raised the white flag. https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... cquisition
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby tonyp » Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:34 am

scott wrote:Opposition public transport spokesman David Davis accused the government of pushing a "socialist agenda reminiscent of a time before the Berlin Wall fell" by trying to buy the bus infrastructure.

Well it is the People's Republic of Victoria at the moment after all. That model didn't work very well nor do Australia's two remaining major government bus systems in Sydney and Brisbane. Bringing it back is the last thing they need to do. Perhaps look at the way PTV is managing the whole system for starters. It works well in Perth and Adelaide, so there's nothing wrong with operational contracting per se.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby burrumbus » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:41 pm

The interesting thing here is 9 of the 13 remaining track bus operators have got the fourth option.3-Ventura/CDC and Donric group have opted for the 10 year contracts with the hand over of assets to the government and Transdev are on their tenderable own contract.
Numerically most of the metro track buses are with the latter four operators.That will be interesting over that period to see what happens and how PTV manage that.
It is sad for Tullamarine Bus Lines-Sikavitsas family who chose to sell rather than wait for a resolution.
So effectively BUSVIC only represents 9 operators.The statement in there about regularatory capture is very apt.The industry really does need new blood in route service.
At least it didn't spread to the numerous country route/school operators who now have long term confidence.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby MAN 16.242 » Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:54 pm

tonyp wrote:
scott wrote:Opposition public transport spokesman David Davis accused the government of pushing a "socialist agenda reminiscent of a time before the Berlin Wall fell" by trying to buy the bus infrastructure.

Well it is the People's Republic of Victoria at the moment after all. That model didn't work very well nor do Australia's two remaining major government bus systems in Sydney and Brisbane. Bringing it back is the last thing they need to do. Perhaps look at the way PTV is managing the whole system for starters. It works well in Perth and Adelaide, so there's nothing wrong with operational contracting per se.

The plan was for the goverment to take ownership of the assests so they can contract it out like in Adelaide & Perth. As it's harder to do this if the government doesn't own the assests.

As for it working well. Well in Perth and Adelaide(expect Light City Buses)it has but it in Melbourne trying it so far with MMBF has been a disaster. Transdev hasn't been a sucess and expect for some routes changes in 2014 and on time running it has actually gotten worse.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby Linto63 » Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:20 pm

So pretty much the same as adopted in NSW, albeit arriving via a different method. IIRC in NSW the incumbents were offered new contracts in about 2005 on the basis that at the end of these, the regions would be would be put up for tender. As part of this the government assumed ownership of all new bus purchases and lease them to the operators with the existing owners retaining ownership of the residual fleets and depots. Hence when regions have changed hands, the post 2005 fleets have transferred to the new operators who have then made their own arrangements for the rest of the fleet.

In Victoria, if I read it correctly, those operators that signed up to the 10 year deal, will sell their assets lot, stock and barrel to the government at the end of the contract period, and their operation put out to tender. Presumably charter operations will be excluded. Privatisation has certainly had its problems south of the border, the well documented Transdev problems and National Express walking away from its rail and tram contracts.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby burrumbus » Wed Jun 20, 2018 9:44 pm

Correct Linto,as I understand it.
So three different contract models for the 13 operators.For the three operators who signed up for the 10 year plan,you are correct in saying only the assets tied to the metro route service contracts,are sold to the government.
Yes privatization in Victoria has not been a success.I think the size of the contracts,which attracted large scale foreign owned operators with little knowledge of the Melbourne market,with the government of the day(Coalition) going for cheapest bid is the root cause of the issues.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby krustyklo » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:04 pm

In Victoria, if I read it correctly, those operators that signed up to the 10 year deal, will sell their assets lot, stock and barrel to the government at the end of the contract period, and their operation put out to tender

I think one thing that was missed by the commentariat here is that the 10 year contracts will allow for retrospective regret in that the operators who signed up to it can revert to the 7 year no-asset sale contracts without penalty. It will be interesting to see if any take the option up.

Yes privatization in Victoria has not been a success.I think the size of the contracts,which attracted large scale foreign owned operators with little knowledge of the Melbourne market,with the government of the day(Coalition) going for cheapest bid is the root cause of the issues.

I'd agree. The Coalition really buggered this one up. It makes regulatory capture look good in comparison. I would hazard a guess that the family owned companies - large and small - are not incredibly inefficient in the grand scheme of things and the MMBF contract was trying too hard to get something for nothing, which rarely if ever seems to succeed for the obvious reason you don't get something for nothing. Any route restructures ala "Greenfields timetable" should really be a PTV city wide properly planned change in conjunction with other routes and operators who will be affected. You also don't get extra kms run (eg, buses every 10 minutes on Principle Routes or whatever they are called) without someone paying. If it isn't the government, it is users on routes whose kms are cut back to provide them. The company, Transdev, exist to turn a profit, not provide stuff for Victorians for free.

Lastly, if the contract isn't enforced then there is no contract.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby E.L.Wood » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:22 pm

Has anyone seen the fine print in the new offer? It appears as if it is for 7 years and then? Up for tender? Doesn't appear to be any mention of another roll over of the contracts.

It also appears as if the PTV and Government have their heads in the sand over fare evasion which is rife on buses from my observations, officially patronage is down based on tag on/off figures.
yolo seems to be a bit of a trend!
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby krustyklo » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:45 pm

Has anyone seen the fine print in the new offer? It appears as if it is for 7 years and then? Up for tender? Doesn't appear to be any mention of another roll over of the contracts.

Hasn't that been the case for the last few contracts? If you're just going to roll them over, why have contracts?

It also appears as if the PTV and Government have their heads in the sand over fare evasion which is rife on buses from my observations, officially patronage is down based on tag on/off figures.

At one point there were 6 monthly passenger counts on buses by Hoban (March and October IIRC). If that still takes place, then it doesn't matter if they have paid their fare or not (unless you're Transdev, part of whose payment is based on validations), trips are counted and so is fare evasion when counts are compared to tap ons.
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Re: 2018 Melbourne Bus Contracts

Postby Linto63 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:35 pm

E.L.Wood wrote:Has anyone seen the fine print in the new offer? It appears as if it is for 7 years and then? Up for tender? Doesn't appear to be any mention of another roll over of the contracts.
Probably the same as has existed until now, i.e. a new contract will be negotiated. Do the Bus Association of Victoria negotiate a deal on behalf of its members or does each operator do its own deal with PTV?
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