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Myki

Melbourne / Victoria Transport Discussion

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Re: Myki

Postby moa999 » Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:55 pm

Roderick Smith wrote:I don't why Sydney kept on with distance-based fares. Time-based multimodal is the only way for public transport to compete with private motoring.
Roderick.

Because distance is the closest approximation of cost (obviously with a big subsidy), and is also related to the consumers alternative (petrol and depreciation).

The September intermodal changes ($2 rebate) will essentially mean a switch to 0-3km bus or 0-10km off-peak rail will essentially be free -- so covers the majority of intermodal transfers
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Re: Myki

Postby simonl » Mon Jun 20, 2016 6:44 pm

A sizeable portion anyway. Bus journeys over 3km will still add $1.50 which is a bit steep and common for going from central to unsw

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Re: Myki

Postby Heihachi_73 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 5:37 pm

Distance-based fares in Melbourne would only work if they competed with the current fares; we have already gotten rid of the zone-based fare structure for the most part. Therefore, they would ultimately fail, especially if they charged by the odometer rather than directly from Point A to Point B on our numerous spaghetti-like bus routes (thanks mostly to this, see photo) or the Hurstbridge line, or even the Belgrave line since it has to go via Ringwood rather than via Glen Waverley/Scoresby/Rowville/Ferntree Gully as an example (70 years too late for that now, see above photo again and compare with Melway maps 71-73 or 9-10 & 13 for different examples in other areas).
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Re: Myki

Postby simonl » Tue Jun 21, 2016 6:21 pm

Fail? If people have to use it they will. Either going back to zones or changing to a new system always causes agro from people who have to pay more.
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Re: Myki

Postby nonscenic » Fri Jul 08, 2016 5:55 pm

I have enjoyed a few more $2.70 fares when touching off in the city after catching a bus from Doncaster recently. This had stopped for several months and I had assumed a software firmware update had fixed the previous problem of drivers not being able to input routes. Perhaps readers are having their software versions rolled back or is my enjoyment of cheaper fares again due to something else?
After 33 years of commuting by bus, I now have a Seniors Myki and two more hours a day not stuck in Victoria parade on a Transdev bus.
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Myki Pay Pass/Contactless card

Postby Frosty » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:22 pm

Melbourne have started a new trial with Myki where they have Pay Pass/Contactless card equipped Myki top ups that don't require pin.
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Re: *Opal Card INFRASTRUCTURE roll-out progress ONLY*

Postby simonl » Tue Jul 12, 2016 6:40 pm

But no tap on with contactless. It's a shame.
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Re: Myki Pay Pass/Contactless card

Postby Mitch » Wed Jul 13, 2016 11:24 pm

As part of the new contract they received, NTT Data are to "investigate" using contactless technology (paypass, Apple Pay/NFC-equipped phones) to touch-on and touch-off on the network. Seems to work pretty well in London and other parts of the world.

Thanks,
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Re: Myki

Postby Richard1207 » Thu Jul 14, 2016 7:59 pm

nonscenic wrote:I have enjoyed a few more $2.70 fares when touching off in the city after catching a bus from Doncaster recently. This had stopped for several months and I had assumed a software firmware update had fixed the previous problem of drivers not being able to input routes. Perhaps readers are having their software versions rolled back or is my enjoyment of cheaper fares again due to something else?

I also thought this problem was fixed, but my transactions for the last two weeks would be embarrassing for Myki. I had some trips on the 556 from Reservoir to Northland and the transactions show Glenroy on the 513, Moonee Ponds on the 508, Eltham on the 513, Lalor on the 566 and Parkville on the 546. Two of them showed the correct location but wrong route. A trip to Epping Plaza from Reservoir Station on the 555 showed I was in Preston on the 517 and the return trip showed I was in Heidelberg on the 546. How could they be that wrong so often?
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Re: Myki

Postby Richard1207 » Sat Jul 16, 2016 1:06 pm

Now the 508 in Northcote can also be added to those 556 transactions.
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Re: Myki

Postby Buzztop » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:39 pm

Alstom 888M wrote:I see fare evasion every day, in some areas considered "povo" like Sunshine and Footscray, and I can tell you that I've never had anyone, student or otherwise, ask me politely for a free ride because they can't afford a Myki. No what I see are people who think they are entitled to everything because "poor me" while carrying a cigarette in the other hand, and yes I am talking about school students too.

"If you can afford to smoke you can afford to pay your fare" is a something I often think to myself.

Throw the book at them. Don't unpaid fines lead to gaol sentences?

Handing out fines to frequent fare evaders has no point to it. Yes the fines stack up, but the mark on their record is not very bad. It would need to be mixed with more serious crimes. Some of these people have been taught this behavior by their parents, so they don't think there's anything wrong with it. Whilst I agree they don't deserve leniency, I dont think the system is equipped to properly deal with the situation. According to my observations, the busvic inspectors must've been trained more recently to not pursue too much. There was a time when they were a bit hardcore.
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Re: Myki

Postby krustyklo » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:15 pm

According to my observations, the busvic inspectors must've been trained more recently to not pursue too much. There was a time when they were a bit hardcore.


My understanding is that:
  • Some bus inspectors are multi-modal, seconded from Metro.
  • Metro are coming up for a contract renewal, and instructions have been issued to Metro Aos with that in mind.

Maybe I'm adding 1 and 1 and getting 11, but it may also explain your observations. From recent experience (observation only I might quickly add), genuine BusVic inspectors at Shoppingtown don't appear to be especially lenient...

If my theory is correct, then once Metro regain their contract, you may see a return to 'hardcore'... :twisted:
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Re: Myki

Postby Buzztop » Sat Sep 03, 2016 8:35 pm

dex wrote:I dislike Myki for a number of reasons, but it's here. And it's staying. Adapt or don't use it.
Everyday people upgrade their phones and will then spend weeks adapting to them.
Everyday the elderly work out where to get the best deals on shopping, the best places for bingo, the best place to shop for clothes or how to get to the shops in the most efficient way.
Everyday a kid learns to talk, whilst another kid learns to walk whilst another kid starts writing!
Everyday people download movies from various torrent sites, because they have adapted and learnt where the best sites are.
Everyday most people will drive a car with not knowing what will happen in the next ten seconds.
Buy a Myki, put money on it, do your research on what is should cost, regularly check it, top it up regularly, touch on, touch off.
Or, log onto Facebook on your new iPhone/S6/Blackberry and tell the world how technology isn't working.
Move along...

Ain't that the truth!!!
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Re: Myki

Postby Roderick Smith » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:03 pm

There you have it: the constant need to touch on and to touch off with arrogant PTV expecting you to take out your wallet/purse from your pocket/handbag, and then your myki from your wallet/purse: every stage or every journey.
If the card worked like my skiing ones, the arrogant demand might work. Everything is designed for management convenience, not passenger convenience.

These rates may be low by world standards. When the cost of bringing the rate down to 0 exceeds the revenue, it is cheaper not to pursue. Unfortunately, the whole myki punitive structure was set up in a futile attempt to reach 0.
September 7 2016 - Melbourne 'Age'.
The Melbourne suburbs most likely to fare evade.
Some of Melbourne's wealthiest suburbs have the highest rate of fare evasion, according to figures compiled by Public Transport Victoria.
An estimated 3 per cent of commuters on the Sandringham line fare evade – a figure higher than any other train route.
Myki swiping is up. Photo: Steve Lightfoot.
The Sandringham line passes through affluent suburbs such as Brighton, home to some of Melbourne's wealthiest families and most expensive properties.
Melbourne's estimated fare evasion rates are calculated based on interviews with more than 44,000 passengers, and weighted against other data, such as how many people use a particular train line.
Passengers using the city's troubled Frankston line, meanwhile, are the second biggest culprits when it comes to fare evading.
An estimated 2.7 per cent of Frankston line passengers dodge their station's myki readers.
While the Frankston line services traditional working-class neighbourhoods, it does pass through more affluent areas such as Toorak, Armadale and Malvern.
The Sunbury line, which services Melbourne's working-class west, has the lowest estimated rate of fare evasion.
Melbourne's tram network paints a similar picture, with bayside travellers the most likely to risk a hefty fine by travelling without a valid ticket.
Almost 6 per cent of Melburnians using trams that terminate at the Glenhuntly depot – including route 3, 64 and 78 trams – don't pay for a ticket.These tram routes service suburbs such as Malvern and Brighton.
Passengers on route 1, 8 and 19 trams are the next biggest tram offenders, with an estimated 4.8 per cent of people in Melbourne's inner-north refusing to touch on.
Public Transport Users Association spokesman Daniel Bowen said it was interesting the Sandringham train line had the highest estimated rate of fare evasion, as people living along this line can afford to pay for a valid ticket.
However, he is less surprised by tram-riding ticket evaders given there are no longer any conductors.
"Some people will always try to get away without paying their fare," he said. "If there are very few chances of getting caught, that is likely to continue."
Mr Bowen said he looks forward to the state government rolling out several changes next year, including abolishing the controversial on-the-spot fines.
However, he said the government still needs to make sure it isn't turning a blind eye to public transport users doing the wrong thing.
"The easier they can make it to pay [for a ticket], but harder to get away not paying, the better."
More than $16 million in potential revenue has gone down the drain this year thanks to fare evasion.
Despite this, those keeping an eye on the government's coffers will be happy the overall rate of fare evasion on metropolitan trains, trams and V/Line services has dropped ever so slightly in the past year.
Public Transport Minister Jacinta Allan said it is promising to see more train and tram users than ever before remembering to touch on – 97.7% of metropolitan train users and 95.3% of trams users travelled with a valid ticket in May 2016.
"Passengers are already benefiting from quicker online top-ups and faster readers at stations across the network," she said.
Unsurprisingly, Melbourne's bus network has the highest rate of fare evasion, with an estimated 4.1 per cent of bus travellers travelling without a valid ticket in May this year. The most common way of fare evading on Melbourne's bus network was by travelling on a concession fare without a valid concession card.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-m ... ra6xq.html
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Re: Myki

Postby jarf » Wed Sep 07, 2016 6:58 pm

Roderick Smith wrote:There you have it: the constant need to touch on and to touch off with arrogant PTV expecting you to take out your wallet/purse from your pocket/handbag, and then your myki from your wallet/purse: every stage or every journey.
If the card worked like my skiing ones, the arrogant demand might work. Everything is designed for management convenience, not passenger convenience.

...what?

Unless PTV starts implanting myki chips in every passenger I really don't any other way around it.

:?
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Re: Myki

Postby Buzztop » Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:49 am

I agree. It's just a card. Easy to keep in reach. We as humans are creatures of habit. Quite simple to grab it and do what's needed. According to my direct experience, people fumble at the last minute because of one distraction or another. Same goes for notifying the driver when intending to get off the bus (as an example).
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Re: Myki

Postby nonscenic » Thu Sep 08, 2016 4:29 pm

Buzztop wrote:I agree. It's just a card. Easy to keep in reach. We as humans are creatures of habit. Quite simple to grab it and do what's needed. According to my direct experience, people fumble at the last minute because of one distraction or another. Same goes for notifying the driver when intending to get off the bus (as an example).

It appears to me that some passengers dont plan more than a split second ahead. How many times do I see (more frequently a female) who has been waiting for a bus at a stop some time, board the bus then start rummaging through their handbag and purse for their myki card :x . I'm not talking about those fare evaders that try it on in the hope that the driver will say forget it - these non planners do have a valid myki when they eventually find it
After 33 years of commuting by bus, I now have a Seniors Myki and two more hours a day not stuck in Victoria parade on a Transdev bus.
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Re: Myki

Postby dex » Thu Sep 08, 2016 7:06 pm

Pffftt....charts and stats..
Sunbury line never gets checked, a lot like Broadmeadows and surrounding suburbs, most of the time inspectors refuse to go out that way. Fare evasion is massive in the northern suburbs, but fear and recurring assaults keeps the inspectors away. Stats also take into account the number of fines issued, not warnings or "friendly chats" if you're on a train you're more likely to get issued a fine in Armadale than Jacana. Stats are crap. Fare evasion on some buses can be around 80-90% all day everyday, some buses I have driven have been full and no-one has paid. That's 100% right there! These stats also don't take into account the number of people, if 100 out of 1,000 on the Frankston line are caught it's 10% but the Sunbury line could carry 3,000 and 100 people are caught, it's around 3%.
My daily cruiser is a two-door turbo merc.
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Re: Myki

Postby tranzitjim » Thu Sep 08, 2016 9:02 pm

I always put my Myki in a particular pocket, I leave home with it there, and it stays there until I return home, except for when I need to use it.

I know where it is, and it is very easy to just whip right out at a moments notice.
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Re: Myki

Postby Roderick Smith » Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:21 am

I have only ever had courtesy from ticket inspectors, but then I always have a ticket.
The new scanners are faster and more reliable, and do read through my jacket pocket with the card away from my wallet.
I watch all the sheep remove wallets and purses, then cards, twice per journey: sure targets for today's feral youth crime. I watched one lady even drop her purse when fumbling with her card.

Roderick
Ticket inspectors ‘intimidating’ passengers on Melbourne’s trains and trams.
Herald Sun November 17, 2016.
HEAVY-handed ticket inspectors are “intimidating” passengers on trams and trains — and even calling police when they don’t get their way.
The Public Transport Ombudsman has criticised their behaviour and wants them to improve their manners before they issue fines to fare evaders.
Complaints about the behaviour of authorised officers jumped 16 per cent to 282 cases this financial year, shows the Ombudsman’s annual ­report, to be released today.
In growing concerns about the behaviour of ticket cops, a Metro authorised officer went against “standard practice” and used Google Translate to caution a passenger in ­Vietnamese.
Customers made 282 complaints against authorised officers this financial year.
In another case, the ticket inspector called police after a woman, who thought she had touched on, refused to show her ID after the mouthy authorised officer ­refused to listen to her and cut her off. In another instance, a ticket inspector threatened to arrest a bystander who had come to the aid of a woman who was “very upset” at the interaction with the officer.
Yarra Trams also fined people who were not able to validate their mykis despite being instructed to allow passengers at least the length of “one stop” to swipe their passes.
“This can be a confronting experience for anyone, particularly if they believe they have taken all reasonable steps to travel with a valid ticket,” the report said.
“It seems that women, in particular, are discomforted by the approach to fare enforcement. Of the 50 complaints to our office that described an AO inter­action as intimidating, 64 per cent came from women.”
Public Transport ­Ombudsman Treasure Jennings said it was a “concern” complaints about ticket inspectors had increased despite efforts to improve their behaviour, and three other reviews into their conduct.
“More work needs to be done in this area to ensure AOs have adequate support and the right skills to interact with the community in an ­eff­ective and fair way,” she said.
In a bid for consistency and fairness, the $75 on-the-spot fine for fare evasion will be abolished at the start of 2017.
Ticket inspectors will have the power to issue warnings instead of automatically dishing out a $223 fine to help ease public dissatisfaction and to show leniency to commuters who make honest mistakes.
Myki once again dominated complaints to the Ombudsman but for the third consecutive year the number dropped. This year, there was 36 per cent fewer grumbles.
MORE:
Gang members riding trains for free.
On the spot transport fines scrapped.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victor ... 0235b66e5e,
People need to get loathing on the wane but ticket inspectors still a pain, report finds.
Has our myki outrage peaked?
The state's public transport watchdog says it has, noting in its latest annual report a 36 per cent drop in complaints about the ticketing system.
Complaints to the Public Transport Ombudsman about authorised officers are on the rise. Photo: Eddie Jim.
But we still don't like it much.
It remained the biggest source of gripes to the Public Transport Ombudsman the report for 2015-16 shows, with most people aggrieved by problems with refunds and reimbursements, ticketing staff and myki accounts.
There were 1176 myki issues raised with the Ombudsman this year, compared with 1610 in 2014-15, the report shows.
It also reveals a 16 per cent increase in complaints made against authorised officers, the staff who patrol the network checking myki cards and monitoring commuter behaviour.
Most of those complaints concerned accusations of heavy-handed and unwarranted treatment by the officers, Ombudsman Treasure Jennings said..
"Several complainants said they felt intimidated. More work needs to be done in this area to ensure AOs have adequate support and the right skills to interact with the community in an effective and fair way," Ms Jennings said.
She said it was troubling that her office had received so many complaints about authorised officers, 282 in all, given they have been the subject of three previous investigations by Victoria's Ombudsman, culminating in an announced overhaul of the fare enforcement regime by the Andrews government in May.
"Given that the recent review of the enforcement regime states that only around 1.7 per cent of the population deliberately fare evade, it seems incongruous to have this level of negativity in the community," Ms Jennings said in her foreword to the annual report.
Slow Myki card readers have infuriated passengers across Melbourne for years.
Myki complaints fell 36 per cent in a year.
The $75 on-the-spot penalty fares, which will be phased out on January 1 as part of the overhaul, also drew many complaints. There were 209 complaints made, a 28 per cent increase on the previous year.
The report detailed the experience of tram commuter "Helen", who complained to the Ombudsman because she felt pressured into paying an on-the-spot penalty on board a tram.
"She described the interaction as humiliating and intimidating," the report said. "She told us that ultimately she paid the penalty fare because she did not want to provide her personal details to the AO in front of fellow travellers, and was not given the option of getting off the tram to provide her details."
Victoria's Public Transport Ombudsman is an independent watchdog funded by the government agencies and operators it handles complaints about, including Public Transport Victoria, Metro Trains and Yarra Trams.
In 2015-16 there was a rise in complaints about Yarra Trams and V/Line, whose passengers suffered a severe train shortage over summer due to problems with wheel wear, and fewer gripes against Public Transport Victoria and Metro Trains.
The Level Crossing Removal Authority and the Melbourne Metro Rail Authority both joined this year, so the Ombudsman could also deal with any complaints raised during construction of those projects.
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/myki- ... sqqn8.html.
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Re: Myki

Postby system improver » Fri Nov 18, 2016 8:14 am

Roderick Smith wrote:I have only ever had courtesy from ticket inspectors, but then I always have a ticket...

And that is the complete story of myki but it doesn't amount to a political campaign nor provide click bait for those who are actually totally ignorant e.g. "we could have got an off the shelf system from Dick Smith for a tenth of the cost," (although after sales service might now be a bit tricky).
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Fare evasion

Postby Roderick Smith » Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:39 am

How does $54m pa compare with other world systems?
If reducing it costs more than the money clawed back, it is cheaper to live with that level.
Management is obsessed with revenue protection and not with passenger convenience.
Barriers are a pain, and work only for rail.
Barriers destroy most of the convenience of having a periodical ticket. If myki barriers could read cards in wallets in pockets, that convenience would be restored. That's what my ski-lift ticket does, and also etag on tollways.

$54m lost: rogue riders flout Melbourne public transport fares.
Herald Sun November 20, 2016.
THRILL-seeking university graduates under 35 are the biggest group of deliberate transport fare evaders, a new study has found.
These rogue repeat offenders ride on public transport five days a week, but think the system is “only to make money” and is “sometimes not worth the price of a ticket”.
Researchers from Monash University have found Melbourne’s public transport users can be divided into three main groups.
These include deliberate fare evaders who say they are “only going a few stops” (18 per cent), unintentional evaders (35 per cent) and never-evaders (48 per cent).
In contrast, those who say they would never evade are infrequent public transport users and are more likely to be retired and aged over 55.
They think transit is a social service that is “there for everyone” and that if people don’t pay, “we all pay for it eventually”.
The group who unintentionally evades falls between the two categories, the online study of 1500 public transport users found.
Around 70 per cent of deliberate fare evaders were repeat offenders.
The study is part of a $100,000 grant to Monash University to look into fare evasion.
The results prompted an increase in ticket checks and anti-evasion advertising.
By 2015 fare evasion in Victoria had dropped to its lowest level ever, with only five per cent of travellers without a valid Myki, saving the state $15 million.
Researcher Dr Alexa Delbosc said the results didn’t mean these percentages of transport users actually evade fares, but were predisposed to doing so.
“Deliberate evaders are more likely to be sensation-seekers and are less likely to hold strong honesty beliefs,” Dr Delbosc said.
“In contrast, never-evaders had very low sensation-seeking, strong moral beliefs and were more likely to do what their family thinks is right.”
Dr Delbosc said the results “suggest a two-pronged approach to reducing fare evasion”.
She said it should be easier for travellers to do the right thing, which meant minimising complex fare structures, long ticket queues or enforced use of smart cards.
But she said deliberate evaders would only respond to tougher measures such as ticket barriers or more frequent checks.
Despite the progress, $54 million is still lost each year from fare evasion.
www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/54m- ... d981e59ec7
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Re: Myki

Postby Roderick Smith » Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:05 am

Roderick

Metro forced to reinstate sacked station officer amid ‘rorts’ backflip.
Herald Sun, Sun. February 26, 2017.
METRO has been ordered to give a long-serving station officer her job back after accusing her of conning money out of the myki card system.
A Fair Work Commission decision said the 57-year-old mum had worked for Metro for 15 years and was brought to the brink of suicide after the investigation and dismissal.
She was based at Parliament Station where she her job was to sell mykis and replace old ones until last year when Metro investigators identified her as the source of 93 “irregular” transactions over seven months.
Her bosses alleged she sold “cloned” used mykis which should have been destroyed, and pocketed $3-$6 each time.
The woman, who earned $33 an hour, strongly denied the claims but was stood down in May and dismissed in July.
MORE: Metro Trains staff have ‘deep rooted’ concerns: union survey Fair Work Commissioner Nick Wilson this month found Metro had no evidence of theft.
The woman had said the transactions allowing old cards to be re-used could have been caused by another staff member using her login, computer errors, or innocent mistakes.
Commissioner Wilson was critical of Metro bosses’ response to the woman’s mental health crisis.
In her evidence the woman said the allegations caused her to suffer “significant mental anguish to the point where she wanted to kill herself”, a concern conveyed to Metro.
“They plainly disbelieved what was said about [the woman’s] propensity for self-harm, or saw it as a product of a guilty mind,” Commissioner Wilson said.
Commissioner Wilson ruled the woman was unfairly and unjustly dismissed.
Rail Tram and Bus Union Victorian branch secretary Luba Grigorovitch said the case was “disheartening”.
Ms Grigorovitch said such “aggressive management tactics” should not be tolerated.
Metro spokeswoman Sammie Black said the company had complied with the Fair Work Commission’s decision.
“The employee has returned to work,” Ms Black said.
www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/metr ... 18d6b203c7
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misleading info on myki

Postby matthew » Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:01 pm

Normal myki rules will apply, so if you touch on after 3am you will be charged a daily fare that will be valid until 3am the next day.



https://www.ptv.vic.gov.au/news-and-eve ... arat-2017/


Should the user get charged a single fare?
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Re: Myki

Postby neilrex » Tue Mar 07, 2017 4:23 pm

What does it mean, when the gate says that the myki card is declined ?

I recently flew to Melbourne, and added $20 credit to my myki using the machine at Melbourne Airport. It had $24.50 credit. I then took the 901 bus to Broadmeadows, tagging on and off, and then onto the train.

When leaving the station in outer southern Melbourne, it was "declined". Twice. I then walked around the corner and got on the local bus without a problem, although the total fare seemed a bit wrong.
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