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Myki

Melbourne / Victoria Transport Discussion

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Myki

Postby Roderick Smith » Sat Feb 20, 2016 11:33 am

I can't find the many posts about Myki, so have a fresh thread.

Melbourne 'Age' is running a concerted anti-Myki campaign, alternating articles with pro-pushbike ones.
Myki isn't wonderful, but not for the reasons which the newspaper cites.

Roderick

Plead guilty, no fine - how hundreds are escaping myki fines in the courts.
February 19, 2016 - Melbourne 'Age'.
Hundreds are escaping myki fines in the courts by pleading guilty.
Most myki fare evaders who take their case to court and plead guilty escape without having to pay a fine, a situation that seems to strike at the heart of the government's fare enforcement regime.
Of about 300 cases represented by QC Julian Burnside's pro-bono flying squad about 120 have been withdrawn by the prosecution.
Of the remaining 180 or so, only a single fine has been issued.
The problem for The Department of Transport is wider than this. On Thursday, February 18, Fairfax Media sat in the 18th Division of the Melbourne Magistrates Court, which was packed full of alleged fare evaders.
Almost all of these people, who were self-represented, pleaded guilty, explained themselves, and received a 12-month good-behaviour-bond.
In a minority of cases they were also required to make a donation of between $75 and $100 to charity.
It is understood that some magistrates prefer to simply accept guilty pleas and dismiss fare-evading cases without any penalty at all.
That pales in comparison with the $223 fine supposedly due for failing to produce a valid ticket.
"It really makes you wonder why the Authorised Officers who hunt in packs really lean on people to pay up $75 on the spot," Mr Burnside said.
"It's not the court's role to be a revenue raiser for Public Transport Victoria."
"None of what we're doing is designed to help fare evaders. I don't approve of fare evaders. But equally I don't approve of Authorised Officers trying to go about and monster people.:"
"The Victorian Government is currently reviewing Victoria's ticketing enforcement regime to ensure it is equitable, effective and fair, with recommendations due to the Minister for Public Transport in March 2016," a spokeswoman for the Department of Transport said.
Fairfax Media watched a full day of cases. Most people accepted they had done the wrong thing, according to the letter of the law, but were keen to press on the magistrate they hadn't breached the law's spirit.
The first transgressor before the magistrate is a woman who speaks low in a foreign language to a shaven-headed youth with purple highlights – a daughter, perhaps, or a younger friend.
The older woman pleads guilty and receives a 12-month good behaviour bond, no fine.
The second lost his wallet and with it his myki. He had to use a concession ticket, one he had spare at home. Travelling on a concession ticket without holding a valid concession status: guilty. Twelve-month good behaviour bond – and a requirement to donate $75 to charity.
The third cries. She receives a six-month good behaviour bond.
Fiona Cameron, one of Burnside's barristers, brings her case.
Her client was using a concession ticket without knowing, he claims, that his healthcare card had just expired. Something about earning $5 above the threshold.
Ms Cameron complains, on his behalf, the ticket inspectors who booked him did not want to listen to his excuses.
"They said, 'the law does not allow us to use common sense'."
The magistrate makes Ms Cameron's client stand, stares at him for a good long while.
"If we did not have the inspectors ... No one would pay. People do things unintentionally – that should let them off, is that what you're saying?," says the magistrate.
"An honest mistake is not a reasonable defence to these set of charges."
The offender gets a 12-month good behaviour bond - plus $100 to charity.
www.theage.com.au/victoria/plead-guilty ... mymru.html
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Re: Myki

Postby Fleet Lists » Sat Feb 20, 2016 12:07 pm

This appears to be more of a fare evasion issue rather than a Myki issue.
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Re: Myki

Postby Leyland B21 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:19 pm

Currently on route 828 heading to Dandenong. Myself and 2 others out of about 15 are the only ones who have actually touched on with the Myki. I never seen this problem as bad as this evening.
You can take the boy out of Armadale W.A but you cant take Armadale out of the boy!!!
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Re: Myki

Postby krustyklo » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:35 pm

I suspect a blitz on some services in the Doncaster area again might be useful - heard a couple of regular travellers who hadn't validated their tickets on the 293 commenting they hadn't seen anyone since the one day blitz at Shoppingtown at the start of school term. To be fair the 902 in both peaks seems to be pretty good for people paying their way although you get the odd one, usually students at that time of morning.
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Re: Myki

Postby Leyland B21 » Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:11 pm

Honestly. I've never seen BusVic Inspectors out beyond 5.30pm. I rarely see the intermodal Inspector's and never seen them at Dandenong checking ppl exiting the bus after 6pm
You can take the boy out of Armadale W.A but you cant take Armadale out of the boy!!!
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Re: Myki

Postby Comeng64 » Wed Mar 02, 2016 6:55 am

Leyland B21 wrote:Honestly. I've never seen BusVic Inspectors out beyond 5.30pm. I rarely see the intermodal Inspector's and never seen them at Dandenong checking ppl exiting the bus after 6pm


As they say,
"The law does not allow us to use common sense"

Yesterday I caught a peak hour train in the morning - it was packed to the doors with passengers, but no ticket inspectors.
Later, I caught an off peak train, around mid-day. This train only had about 1 person to every 4 seat. It was a Comeng (So there were doors between most carriages), but the Ticket inspectors insisted on waiting for the next stop to get out and run to the next carriage! If they had walked through, they would have been done in seconds!

I think the problem with ticket inspectors is their bad placement and negative attitude. Why aren't they being put during peak hour when they will catch 200% more fare evaders?
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Re: Myki

Postby Craig » Wed Mar 02, 2016 11:15 am

Comeng64 wrote: think the problem with ticket inspectors is their bad placement and negative attitude. Why aren't they being put during peak hour when they will catch 200% more fare evaders?


In peak periods it is impractical to try and check tickets on an overcrowded train - instead you'll usually find them waiting at the barriers at inner city stations and major suburban hubs like Box Hill, Dandenong or Frankston where the vast majority of passengers will exit at. Other than catching out people who thought they'd get away without topping up or touching on, they pick up people travelling on a concession myki without entitlement - the illuminated lights on the barriers lets them know who to target.

On the odd occasion they I have seen them checking tickets at Mordialloc and Mentone in the AM peak too, catching out secondary students thought they'd get a free ride and use the money their parents gave them for their myki to get something from the school canteen instead.

In the PM peak, they sometimes will be positioned to check tickets of everyone alighting the train at a random suburban station.

They also will ride counter-peak trains in the peaks - my sister travelling Edithvale - Carrum got a fine on the way to school once for forgetting her ticket, and from that day she'd see them on her usual train about once a month and was enough of a deterrent not to make that mistake again.

In short, the majority peak hour travellers would encounter the odd inspector and travel through a gated station at one end of their journey.

Kind Regards


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Re: Myki

Postby nonscenic » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:52 pm

Myki inspections occasionally occur at the Doncaster Park and Ride say 5 to 6pm in the evening peak. I suspect a lot of these "fare evaders" are from those commuters who didn't notice their myki not touch on when they boarded in the city.
There must have been a software or firmware upgrade about Christmas since myki readers seem to deduct the correct fare zone more reliably than prior when about 10% of my journeys were shown incorrectly as all being in zone 2
After 33 years of commuting by bus, I now have a Seniors Myki and two more hours a day not stuck in Victoria parade on a Transdev bus.
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Re: Myki

Postby krustyklo » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:40 pm

Why aren't they being put during peak hour when they will catch 200% more fare evaders?

Adding to earlier comments, they do. There were inspectors at Greensborough in the morning peak about 2 weeks ago as an example.

My AO contact certainly seems to do plenty of afternoon / evening shifts as well. AOs also do more than just check tickets - another common job during the day is fining people who aren't parked correctly in station car parks, or who are not rail users parking in the car park, eg at Heidelberg for hospital visitors.
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Re: Myki & fines

Postby Roderick Smith » Tue Mar 22, 2016 9:35 am

Roderick

'They can't even feed their children breakfast': Radical rethink of public transport fines urged.
March 22, 2016 - Melbourne 'Age'.
Myki penalties in a fine mess.
Ticket penalties have soared despite a drop in fare evasion rates, with commuters crying foul over the fairness of the enforcement regime.
The state government is considering overhauling the public transport system for low-income school students.
The radical shake-up of public transport was announced by Public Transport Minister Jacinta Allan in response to a report to be launched on Tuesday, which urges the government to overhaul the public transport fine system for young people.
"Current concession fares significantly reduce the cost of travelling for students, but we recognise that, for the most disadvantaged, even a small fare can have a big impact," Ms Allan said. "We are currently reviewing the ticketing enforcement regime to ensure it is fair for all, particularly for those kids who have the least and need public transport the most."
Year 12 student Jamilla Allison was targeted by ticket inspectors and fined. Photo: Joe Armao Public transport fines are a fact of life for many children from low-income backgrounds.
Children's Court figures show the highest number of public transport fines for young people in Victoria are for children living in Sunshine and Frankston, with 20 per cent of the entire children's infringement notices issued in Sunshine in 2013-14.
In contrast, state and federal parliamentarians and judges are eligible to apply for free public transport in Victoria.
The report - Fare Go: Myki, transport poverty and access to education in Melbourne's west, is funded by the Victorian Law Foundation and is a joint venture by Victoria University and the WEstjustice Sunshine Youth office, which sees many of the young people affected by public transport fines.
It calls on the government to grant children whose families are on Centrelink benefits free public transport, for public transport officers to accept student cards as proof of their entitlement to a concession ticket, and for the abolition of the fines system for people aged under 18.
The report points out that school attendance is compulsory until the age of 17, but public transport officers only recognise Victorian Public Transport student concession cards, which cost $9, and require passport photos and a Myki travel card.
Said one western suburbs student welfare officer quoted in the report: "There are many poor families in this school community who can't even feed their children breakfast – they are fed through the school. Many families can't afford the initial payment for Myki."
"Given that the focus for young people in secondary school is their education, the government's policy means that many young people do not have a source of income outside the home," the report states.
"Young people are very unlikely to have their own funds to pay the fines."
It's a situation familiar to Jamilla Allison, 17, who has already been fined twice for not carrying an official concession card – being fined after getting off the bus after school, with a bag full of school books.
"You see patterns in who they check," she said. "Having to go through all that during Year 12 was extremely stressful."
WEstjustice Sunshine Youth chief executive Denis Nelthorpe said about 50 per cent of young people's fines went unpaid, with many simply not having the ability to pay fines. Theoretically, children who don't pay fines and are issued with a warrant against their property could face jail time, although Mr Nelthorpe said this was highly unlikely.
"My view is, this is just a bad system. This is an application of the legal system that has become outdated and nobody's noticed."
An earlier version of this article suggested the government was considering making public transport free for low-income students. That is incorrect and the text has been changed. The error was made by the reporter.
www.theage.com.au/victoria/they-cant-ev ... nn02l.html
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Re: Myki

Postby dex » Tue Mar 22, 2016 8:18 pm

So should we make transport in better suburbs more expensive?
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Re: Myki

Postby Roderick Smith » Wed Mar 23, 2016 9:57 am

I'm voting for free fast food and free copies of the 'Age' and 'Herald Sun'.

Roderick

Victoria University College of Law and Justice report recommends free public transport for students and under-18s.
March 22, 2016 Brimbank Leader.
Reports of students skipping school because they can’t afford public transport has led to a call for free Myki cards for under-18s.
DISADVANTAGED students in Melbourne’s west should get free public transport because some can’t afford the travel to and from school, a report has found.
A large number of students from low socio-economic homes in the west skip school owing to not having enough money to pay for public transport, affording Myki top-ups or paying fines incurred for riding without a valid travel card, according to The Fare Go: Myki, Transport Poverty and Access to Education in Melbourne’s West report.
Author Su Robertson, director of clinical programs at the Victoria University College of Law and Justice, said the situation was causing social and financial hardship for already marginalised youth.
“Transport poverty results in contact with the infringements system, which is complex, ineffective and a source of social hardship,” she said.
“It can include missing school, homelessness and emotional distresses … those kids who can’t afford such basics can also suffer humiliation, be ostracised from their peers and fall even further behind by continuing to skip school.”
A 16-year-old student, whose parents were not eligible for Centrelink benefits due to visa restrictions, missed school for up to three months after he was issued fines up to $2000.
The student worked as a labourer to pay off the penalties.
The report recommends free public transport travel to all passengers 18 and under, educational institutions to be allowed to issue free Myki travel cards to students and scrapping public transport fines for anyone under 18.
Ms Roberston, who is also a clinical supervisor at the Westjustice Sunshine Youth Office, said about half of the youth legal centre’s clients, aged between 14 and 17, have sought help for public transport infringements.
“We need new ways of thinking about public transport access for young people with a particular focus on getting to and from school in Melbourne’s west … they shouldn’t have to weigh up whether they should risk a fine or risk getting in trouble for not going to school,” she said.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/leader/west ... ce874ce5ec
Last edited by Roderick Smith on Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Myki

Postby Alstom 888M » Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:20 am

I see fare evasion every day, in some areas considered "povo" like Sunshine and Footscray, and I can tell you that I've never had anyone, student or otherwise, ask me politely for a free ride because they can't afford a Myki. No what I see are people who think they are entitled to everything because "poor me" while carrying a cigarette in the other hand, and yes I am talking about school students too.

"If you can afford to smoke you can afford to pay your fare" is a something I often think to myself.

Throw the book at them. Don't unpaid fines lead to gaol sentences?
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Re: Myki

Postby Richard1207 » Wed Mar 23, 2016 12:39 pm

Alstom 888M wrote:I see fare evasion every day, in some areas considered "povo" like Sunshine and Footscray, and I can tell you that I've never had anyone, student or otherwise, ask me politely for a free ride because they can't afford a Myki. No what I see are people who think they are entitled to everything because "poor me" while carrying a cigarette in the other hand, and yes I am talking about school students too.

"If you can afford to smoke you can afford to pay your fare" is a something I often think to myself.

Throw the book at them. Don't unpaid fines lead to gaol sentences?

I agree 100% with you, everyday I see people getting on a bus without touching on and showing no respect for the driver or the passengers who do the right thing. More authorized officers are needed on buses to catch and fine them, but where are they? As you said, if the ones who smoke can afford cigarettes they can afford a bus fare.
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Re: Myki

Postby tranzitjim » Sun Mar 27, 2016 6:24 pm

The only way in which people should be given handouts, shall be when they go to the Salvation Army for free MyKis.

The system itself should not be the one to foot the bill.
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Re: Myki

Postby matthew » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:44 pm

Alstom 888M wrote:I see fare evasion every day, in some areas considered "povo" like Sunshine and Footscray, and I can tell you that I've never had anyone, student or otherwise, ask me politely for a free ride because they can't afford a Myki. No what I see are people who think they are entitled to everything because "poor me" while carrying a cigarette in the other hand, and yes I am talking about school students too.

"If you can afford to smoke you can afford to pay your fare" is a something I often think to myself.

Throw the book at them. Don't unpaid fines lead to gaol sentences?

Do you know it cost $328.10 per day to have someone stay in Jail. - http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015 ... lian-jails

So _ One year in Jail it cost the community:$119,756.50 for one person
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Re: Myki

Postby Roderick Smith » Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:46 pm

Who feeds the transport minister? The tourist myki promised a lot, and delivered nothing: it is just as expensive as a normal myki. It should be possible to buy a one-day zone 1 & 2 at any machine: cardboard back and disposable. Plastic with a refundable deposit runs into trouble with the mechanism, and then every myki holder would want a refund.

Roderick

Lobby calls for tourist-friendly myki with more options.
March 31, 2016 - Melbourne 'Age'.
Tourism groups want more visitor-friendly myki cards.
Special three and five-day myki passes should be available to people visiting Melbourne, a tourism lobby group says.
Visitors to the city have to fork out for a myki card and then pay to ride the system, even for one day.
Melbourne is the only major Australian city that does not have a single-use public transport ticket for tourists, and the Tourism & Transport Forum says there should be more options for visitors.
"The ease of using myki would be enhanced if a tourist card were introduced that allowed time-based unlimited travel on the Victorian transport network," a pre-budget submission says.
"Tourist cards could be offered for one, three and five-day periods and take the guesswork out of the transport ticketing system for those visiting Melbourne."
Public Transport Victoria offers a "Visitor Value Pack", which costs $14 and includes a pre-loaded myki with enough money for one day's travel in Zones 1 and 2. The deal includes discounts at 15 attractions, including the Aquarium.
Forum chief executive Margy Osmond said a new card needed to be a "genuine" visitor card that provided bonuses for tourists to see Melbourne's attractions.
Ms Osmond said that with a new tender for myki due this year, there was an opportunity to make the card better.
The forum has highlighted how total international visitor expenditure in Victoria rose 30 per cent to $6.52 billion in 2015.
"Something good is clearly happening in Victoria and in Melbourne in particular; these visitors need the ease of access," she said.
Ms Osmond said international tourists were used to having a tourist-friendly public transport ticket with wider benefits. "Melbourne is a great city; it needs to leverage this opportunity to make itself as accessible as possible," she said.
The group also wants better Wi-Fi at tourist and transport hubs to help visitors understand the transport network.
Ms Osmond said the forum also backed priority bus lanes for the SkyBus to the airport and, ultimately, a rail line to Tullamarine and Avalon.
Offering more options for tourists has the backing of the Public Transport Users Association. Spokesman Daniel Bowen said it made sense to give tourists an option other than having to buy a smartcard.
"There is difficulty at the moment where tourists might buy a card but don't know how to top up or how much to load onto it for their stay in Melbourne. It can be confusing," Mr Bowen said.
"Melbourne is almost unique in the world in not offering a single-use public transport ticket, instead forcing people to buy a smartcard."
Public Transport Minister Jacinta Allan said the myki visitor pack already took the guesswork out of using Melbourne's public transport.
"One card for trams, trains and buses makes it easy for locals and visitors to experience all that Victoria has to offer," she said.
www.theage.com.au/victoria/lobby-calls- ... nv2px.html
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Re: Myki

Postby nonscenic » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:02 pm

Other city solutions for tourists:
Singapore: stored value card obtainable from vending machine which also "buys back" and gives correct change for remaining balance when the visitor has completed their travel.
Stockholm: user selectable validity period that commences with first use. Includes discounts to tourist attractions.
After 33 years of commuting by bus, I now have a Seniors Myki and two more hours a day not stuck in Victoria parade on a Transdev bus.
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Re: Myki

Postby Roderick Smith » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:52 pm

From another forum: Metro can already cope with paper at barriers (VLine tickets carry a metropolitan free add on), so sell a paper day ticket at all cash outlets (ie 'premium' stations, and offline ones).
Adelaide does this anyhow.

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Re: Myki

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Fri Apr 01, 2016 10:06 pm

The Myki zone system sounds kinda like the section system used by buses up in Sydney before Opal came in now all modes of transport in Sydney use distance based data PTV might need to look at distance based fares zones sound old and outdated
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Re: Myki

Postby Roderick Smith » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:12 am

I don't why Sydney kept on with distance-based fares. Time-based multimodal is the only way for public transport to compete with private motoring.
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Re: Myki

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Sat Apr 02, 2016 10:11 am

The reason Transport NSW is still using the distance based fare system with opal is because of people making trips up to 4 hours and trips between 150 and 300 km long traveling from the hunter valley south coast southern tablelands Newcastle and the blue mountains where Myki is mostly a Melbourne metro area based system as most of the old news stories on Myki I've seen on YouTube have been from ether 9 news Melbourne and 7 news Melbourne
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Re: Myki

Postby Fleet Lists » Sat Apr 02, 2016 12:04 pm

see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myki
Myki was implemented in mid 2013 on regional "commuter" (short-haul) rail services in a staged process; between Melbourne and Seymour on 24 June, on the Traralgon line on 8 July, the Bendigo line on 17 July, the Ballarat line on 24 July and the Geelong-Marshall line on 29 July.

Dont rely on news stories for your information - Myki is available well outside Melbourne.
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Re: Myki

Postby krustyklo » Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:04 pm

The original plan for Myki was to cover all of Victoria and I'm pretty sure also Vline operated services outside Victoria. I have a photo of the Myki scanners at Swan Hill somewhere.

It was scaled back to regional towns in an arc roughly covering Geelong - Ballarat - Bendigo - Traralgon including both rail and bus services. I would be surprised if it saved any significant sums of money given the subsequent need to still run 2 seperate ticketing systems and given you would think once you have sorted out the whole zone, card media and GPS system for the zones currently in use that it wouldn't be a lot extra to add more zones covering the smaller number of trips outside this region. At least removing single trip tickets could be argued to save money from supposedly expensive single trip media and systems to allow for it, along with extra data generated by having multiples of the current number of tickets in use, with the single trip tickets having limited use.

To be fair to the OP, the current Myki page on the PTV website describes it as "myki is Melbourne's ticketing system." (from http://ptv.vic.gov.au/tickets/) despite the fact it was introduced in Geelong and Bendigo (and Ballarat?) before it came in a limited fashion to Melbourne ahead of the full roll out six months later. This is probably more a reflection on the way the PTV sees its role than a reflection on the reason for being of Myki.
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Re: Myki

Postby dex » Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:23 pm

I dislike Myki for a number of reasons, but it's here. And it's staying. Adapt or don't use it.
Everyday people upgrade their phones and will then spend weeks adapting to them.
Everyday the elderly work out where to get the best deals on shopping, the best places for bingo, the best place to shop for clothes or how to get to the shops in the most efficient way.
Everyday a kid learns to talk, whilst another kid learns to walk whilst another kid starts writing!
Everyday people download movies from various torrent sites, because they have adapted and learnt where the best sites are.
Everyday most people will drive a car with not knowing what will happen in the next ten seconds.
Buy a Myki, put money on it, do your research on what is should cost, regularly check it, top it up regularly, touch on, touch off.
Or, log onto Facebook on your new iPhone/S6/Blackberry and tell the world how technology isn't working.
Move along...
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