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PTV: 2016 Night Network

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Re: All-night transport in Melbourne

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Craig » Mon Dec 07, 2015 12:47 pm

The new timetables starting January 1 incorporating the Night Network are now online on the PTV website.

The best way to access the Night Bus timetables is to use the search or drop-downs here - https://ptv.vic.gov.au/timetables - the website search doesn't seem to have updated itself yet.

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby RailwayBus » Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:46 pm

The night network mostly seems good, but the western suburbs routes are flawed.

There is no reason why either the 944 or 945 need to run into the city with the Werribee line running all night. Wasted resources which could've been used to provide a third route in the west.

944 - This route basically duplicates the Werribee line for most of the way, while adding very little in the way of unique coverage. It should commence at Laverton station and run to Point Cook from there. Alternatively, to retain coverage in the northern part of Altona, commence it at Footscray station, and have it run along Geelong Road and Millers Road to Altona and then on to Point Cook via the allocated route. From Point Cook it could either return the way it came, or continue to Hoppers Crossing station to provide another connection point.

945 - This route will take almost 90 minutes to get from the City to Wyndham Vale! Unbelievable! It will be hopelessly indirect, and basically be of little use to anyone until around Truganina. After a night out, people just want to get home. They don't want to be stuffed around going through industrial areas out of the way for no good reason. It should commence at Williams Landing station, then run via the allocated route most of the way, but it should also connect at Werribee station rather than getting so close to it but not actually going to it. Werribee has a few night life venues which will be ignored by this route.

The resources saved by not sending these two routes into the City could have been used to fund an extra route somewhere, preferably in the same area. My suggestion would be to have the 945 run between Williams Landing and Werribee, and have a third route doing a circle between Werribee and Wyndham Vale. Once again, it appears the west has drawn the short straw in lack of coverage, travel time, and lack of consideration for local night life venues.

And on another note, the lack of night transport, either bus or tram, to Chapel Street is also a major oversight. The (bizarre) Ringwood via Caulfield bus should run either along Chapel Street, or if traffic congestion is a concern, cross it at Malvern Road and run along Williams Road, rather than running along Punt Road. There is the Sandringham line nearby, but this shouldn't be the only option for one of Melbourne's premier nightlife districts when it currently has two night rider buses.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Craig » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:27 am

I remarked earlier that it was generous to have kept the 944 running to avoid a coverage loss in Altona North & Altona Meadows given the proximity of the Werribee line stations - but I'm even more surprised that they've decided to run it every half-hour. Your idea of running it from Footscray seems sound - connect off the Sunbury train, then pick up Point Cook residents off the Werribee train departing the City half an hour later. Maybe the current 495/494 loop after 9:30pm should be replaced with buses departing Laverton via the path of the 944 loop, expanding coverage?

I'm sure that small number of Brooklyn residents would've rather a useable weekend service on 414 before being put on the Night Bus map - as it is, headways are every 80 mins on Saturdays with the last bus leaving Footscray at 17:16 and no Sunday service at all (granted some parts are also walkable to the 411/412/903 or 471).

Given the slowness of trains via the Altona loop, you might have been generous and had 945 run from the City, onto the freeway (with "on request" drop-offs at the on-ramp stops at Williamstown Rd & Millers Rd) and then off the freeway at Laverton North. But instead of running to Wyndham Vale, terminate at Werribee as you suggest.

Agreed running a loop between Werribee and Wyndham Vale via the 190 then returning via 192 would have been a better solution. The amount of layover the 190 bus has between round trips, there is potential to run 192 buses on Friday and Saturday evenings after 9:30pm too, meeting the alternating train at Werribee.

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby BroadGauge » Wed Dec 09, 2015 11:14 am

Has anybody else noticed that in heaps of areas there's a huge gap of 4-5 hours between the last normal bus services around 9pm, and the first Night Bus services around 1 or 2am?

I know that the purpose of the new network is to provide "after midnight" transport, but in reality you'd think providing services after 9pm would happen first before providing services in the dead middle of the night :twisted:
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby CrowdedHouse » Wed Dec 09, 2015 1:55 pm

Craig wrote:I remarked earlier that it was generous to have kept the 944 running to avoid a coverage loss in Altona North & Altona Meadows given the proximity of the Werribee line stations - but I'm even more surprised that they've decided to run it every half-hour. Your idea of running it from Footscray seems sound - connect off the Sunbury train, then pick up Point Cook residents off the Werribee train departing the City half an hour later. Maybe the current 495/494 loop after 9:30pm should be replaced with buses departing Laverton via the path of the 944 loop, expanding coverage?

I'm sure that small number of Brooklyn residents would've rather a useable weekend service on 414 before being put on the Night Bus map - as it is, headways are every 80 mins on Saturdays with the last bus leaving Footscray at 17:16 and no Sunday service at all (granted some parts are also walkable to the 411/412/903 or 471).

Given the slowness of trains via the Altona loop, you might have been generous and had 945 run from the City, onto the freeway (with "on request" drop-offs at the on-ramp stops at Williamstown Rd & Millers Rd) and then off the freeway at Laverton North. But instead of running to Wyndham Vale, terminate at Werribee as you suggest.

Agreed running a loop between Werribee and Wyndham Vale via the 190 then returning via 192 would have been a better solution. The amount of layover the 190 bus has between round trips, there is potential to run 192 buses on Friday and Saturday evenings after 9:30pm too, meeting the alternating train at Werribee.

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My thought with the 944, 945 and train services in the west, is let the trains be more direct and have the buses cover the rest.

Currently, it's timetabled for the Werribee train to run via the Altona loop and for their to be a Williamstown shuttle service.

I'd advocate for the Werribee train to run from Newport to Laverton direct and have Altona, plus Williamstown covered by the 944.


For example, the 944 would start at Williamstown (Victoria Street) and run the 471 route (covering the bars along The Strand) to Newport, then continue that 471 route to Altona Gate.
From there run the 411 route straight down Millers Road, through Altona, then run direct down Queen Street, then south into Point Cook and then swing back up to and end at Williams Landing.

The 945 (as suggested here) should start at Williams Landing (possibly a 944 continuing it's run), run north through Truganina, down to Werribee Plaza, across to Wyndhamvale via Heaths Road, then down Ballan Road to Werribee station.

So as said above, let the train be a quick direct service, and the buses start from the suburbs, collecting from the trains and providing that drop-off service.


P.S. The decision to close Southern Cross station after midnight is bizarre.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Craig » Wed Dec 09, 2015 2:59 pm

CrowdedHouse wrote:The decision to close Southern Cross station after midnight is bizarre.


Indeed, not like there is any night life in Docklands, Crown or along King St to serve...not to mention those coming back from St Kilda on the 96 tram.

It'll also make it hard for someone wanting to connect with SkyBus from a late flight in or early flight out, or even make the 7am train to Albury on a Sunday.

Meanwhile, Night Coach departs from Southern Cross - someone enjoying a night in Chapel St or even a pub around Richmond after the footy will have to plan ahead to get across in time.

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby pakenhamtrain » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:28 pm

The chances are it's because SX is a PPP and any contract variation costs money.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby RailwayBus » Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:02 pm

pakenhamtrain wrote:The chances are it's because SX is a PPP and any contract variation costs money.


That's exactly what I thought, but it is money that should have been spent.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Heihachi_73 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 11:30 am

BroadGauge wrote:Has anybody else noticed that in heaps of areas there's a huge gap of 4-5 hours between the last normal bus services around 9pm, and the first Night Bus services around 1 or 2am?

I know that the purpose of the new network is to provide "after midnight" transport, but in reality you'd think providing services after 9pm would happen first before providing services in the dead middle of the night :twisted:

Welcome to Melbourne, where buses are an optional extra. :lol:

Someone up high in the PTV pecking order apparently thinks that 9PM is an absolute luxury, since a good number of buses don't even make it close to that, to the point where you wonder why they even bother at all, politics aside. Such as route 370, broken off from the 270 due to "low patronage" while the rest of the route was upgraded significantly; the 370 keeping the old 270 Monday-Saturday "coverage" timetable which was useless as udders on a bull.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Roderick Smith » Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:28 pm

I wish that 'fleet lists' would put a name on his posts; it would make his messages more memorable and more learned and more acted upon. This is the only group to which I post where carets are a problem, and so it is an ingrained problem. You get my posts as addons to others, and so the style is copied across without thinking. This is consistently the most difficult group to which to post, even though it is one with so much interest and so many excellent posters and posts. My hate is anonymous posting, and everyone here is way past the 'stranger danger' age.
I'll try to improve, but the alternative is not to post anything, just be a lurker. There are only 168 hours in a week.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby BroadGauge » Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:07 pm

Roderick Smith wrote:I wish that 'fleet lists' would put a name on his posts; it would make his messages more memorable and more learned and more acted upon.

There is no rule on this site requiring everybody to post with their full personal details on every post, so I don't see why people should do it just for you.

I actually see that as an advantage of posting on sites like here instead of on Facebook groups, which offer exactly what you are desiring ;)
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Heihachi_73 » Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:21 pm

Nicknames and pseudonyms will live forever.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Craig » Sun Dec 13, 2015 10:35 pm

Heihachi_73 wrote:Someone up high in the PTV pecking order apparently thinks that 9PM is an absolute luxury, since a good number of buses don't even make it close to that, to the point where you wonder why they even bother at all, politics aside. Such as route 370, broken off from the 270 due to "low patronage" while the rest of the route was upgraded significantly; the 370 keeping the old 270 Monday-Saturday "coverage" timetable which was useless as udders on a bull.


I'm sure there are plenty of people in PTV planning and management who'd love to see buses on all routes run first to last train 7 days a week - but who is giving them the money to do it?

It sadly all comes down to the funding from treasury, which of course is influenced by what policies are in the best interests of the state (*cough* will get the most swinging votes come next election *cough*) and greatest social & economic benefit which compete against a range of other voter demands - like underground train links, road upgrades, new hospitals, more police, better schools etc.

While there are still the odd pockets that missed out on minimum standards (all routes in Mooroolbark, most coverage routes in Manningham inculded), we've came a long way in the last decade (particularly under the third term of the previous ALP government) after cuts in the late 80s and early 90s in many inner and middle suburbs.

SmartBus corridors, Sunday services, 9pm finishes, 20 min frequencies on trunk routes in outer growth suburbs (even weekends in some cases), public holiday patterns matching trains (well mostly), Uni expresses are all things we'd once wish for and now enjoy. Even ancillary items like low floors, AC, tactiles, better flags, stop timetables everywhere are all things that have seen more investment into buses.

Some of these have been more successful than others - SmartBus corridors running with standing loads on weekends (a far cry from when last buses on Springvale Rd until 2002 were around 6pm weekdays with no Sunday service, while 307 ran every 90 mins) while in other areas buses run around the back streets once an hour on a Sunday with less than 5 passengers onboard because the route still takes the cooks tour, doesn't connect with trains well and vehicle presentation and comfort is overlooked.

The latter does little to convince governments that their money has been well spent, other than the jobs created. An empty bus won't generate many votes either.

On the plus side, funding continues to increase (Extra $100M over 4 years, now funded in the State Budget until 2018/9), the best we can hope for is further gradual improvements, targeted into areas previously overlooked and those routes where loadings are guaranteed to climb, and the cycle can continue with more funding promised in the future for other areas or further upgrades.

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Craig » Tue Dec 15, 2015 11:20 pm

TV commercial for Night Network



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24 h pt for Melbourne

Postby Roderick Smith » Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:47 am

24 h pt Melbourne Vic. www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/melb ... 786e4d0d6b

Hourly is a bit useless for trains: all of those psos will have a lot of boredom. It can be made to work if everything connects with everything in the city (nightrider buses have done that for years). I haven't seen PTV's timetables yet.
I did write one once, and it is tricky to achieve: journey times have to be at the longest 27 min or 57 min or 87 min, and not everthing fits those cutoffs.

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Re: 24 h pt for Melbourne

Postby Heihachi_73 » Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:22 am

Link is behind a paywall, it redirects me to "Subscribe to the Herald Sun". Freedom of information my asre! Might grab a paper from Maccas later tonight.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby philm » Wed Dec 30, 2015 4:02 pm

Saw one of the new stops for the Night Network on Peel Street

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby krustyklo » Fri Jan 01, 2016 5:18 pm

This was attached to the stop in The Lakes Blvd just east of Jardier Terrace, Mill Park Lakes, on Tuesday.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Roderick Smith » Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:23 am

160105Tu-MelbourneHeraldSun-allnighttravel.jpg
Has the nightrider network been reshaped? Somebody put up a post 'last ride', but how can reshaping to fit trains on 60 min headways replace buses on 30 min?
I would have gone for 30 on trains: the psos are being paid anyhow, and signallers are on at most places all night anyhow for depot transport.

It seems that PTV has nobbled the noble scheme for all the wrong reasons. The hourly service is awkward, and wastes money.
A 27 min line can run hourly with one set.
A 57 min line can run hourly with two sets.
An 87 min line can run hourly with three sets.
Unfortunately running times between nodes don't match that.

As ever, PTV caters for only one traffic: nightclubbers from King St, going home. Even then, it causes the maximum inconvenience by closing the Elizabeth St entrance (also affecting Southbank), forcing them to walk the extra block.
On hourly service, everything can and should connect in town, with arrivals at x.54-57, and departures at y.00-03.
That is hard to achieve, and I had some iffy cases when I did a design a few years ago.
Really, the trains should be on 30 min headways, and the nightrider bus should have been reshaped.

I have looked only at the Burnley group.
PTV has retained the alternating through/connect, leaving the confusing times.

Lilydale: 58 down (but 59 up). At least an East Richmond stop is included.
Belgrave: 65 down (but 75 up because of a crossing allowance). UFG only 56 down (but 58 up, in the emptier direction).
Alamein: 12 each way, leaving the set idle for 36 min/h.
Glen Waverley: 34 each way.
PTV's solution has been to interwork, and run GW 30 min offset from the others.
Could Alamein run through (a breathless 27 min each way), removing 5 min from the others, and hence removing dead time? That failed, because trains have to back at Camberwell 83 min later.
Could trains run every 30 min to Ringwood, then 60 min each way? That works, but is it good?
The Camberwell - Alamein shuttle may be an unwanted constraint.
Lilydale and UFG can be made compatible for standard times.
For the price of psos at three stations, have a bus making end-on connections at UFG.
Wipe the dead time at the outer end.
Standby: end-on connection at Mooroolbark.
Prospect: 30 min to GW with no more trains.

Currently:
Belgrave dwell times 48/50 - 37/38: 47 min at best.
Lilydale dwell times: 41/43 - 48/50: 5 min at best.
Glen Waverley dwell times: 47-58: 11 min, not hopeless, and used at the other end for the Lilydale/Belgrave fudge factor.

Now to try something which worked for me last time:
Down Werribee via Laverton, up Werribee via Newport - Williamstown - Newport, connecting with the next down Werribee. That saved a set. Can I do that at Alamein?

I guess that the three-car shuttles remain Alamein, Cranbourne & Williamstown, or is there a general splitting for the all-night?

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby matthew » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:32 pm

Why I cant board the night bus at normal bus stop? I can get off at normal bus stop but cant board the bus service there!
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Roderick Smith » Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:44 pm

PTV will trot out 'safety'. The original scheme had an onboard phone. If you were on the bus, you could phone ahead for a taxi or to be met. The reverse doesn't work. As ever, I disagree with PTV.

I have yet to look at the Nightrider changes: others will have done that. I am analysing the train times.

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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby krustyklo » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:17 pm

is there a general splitting for the all-night?


Without having looked, the trains passing during the all night service sounded like 6 car sets. Happy for a more definitive answer.
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Re: PTV: 2016 Night Network

Postby Craig » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:04 pm

All trains I saw on Friday and Saturday night operated as 6 car trains - I'd have thought there would be safety concerns running trains of this length in the middle of the night, especially at the outer ends of the network. It was only about 10 years ago that running sets with 1-car open after 8pm was abolished on quieter lines - I have a vivid memory of catching a one car service from Greensborough into town around 7pm or 7:30pm in July 2006, which reverted to three cars on arrival at Flinders St.

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