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Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby system improver » Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:16 am

revenue wrote:... Loads on the 900 are now much smaller. Pretty much everyone goes around the corner to the 601/630 stop. So there is spare capacity there - even between 8am and 9am.

- Might be an argument for 900 to 'double stop' at Huntingdale if there are people waiting at the 601 stop. There were instances when a half full 900 departed and there were people waiting at 601. Would have only saved the customers a minute or two, but it would probably give a better customer experience....

At about 2pm yesterday, around forty Uni bound people got off the train and walked to, and then orderly queued at,the 601 stop. Not a single person went to the 900* stop even though the next bus out was being displayed as 4 minutes away. Of course, it came before the 601, picked up one person who had come from the shops and drove past the 601 stop. Rather than double stop, the 900 stop to Monash should be relocated around the corner. At the same time, I would reposition the pedestrian crossing which is clearly in the wrong place - every one just ignores it and jay walks.

* edited see below.
Last edited by system improver on Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby tranzitjim » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:41 am

Re SystemImprover, you mean route #900, not #903.


Why do we not have PIDS at the stops for these 'UniBus or SupperShuttle' busses? (The same ones as what are used on the SmartBus Network? )

The 601 could even make use of the existing SmartBus sign at Monash, relocate the Huntingdale stop to around the corner, and make use of that one for there.

Also while I am here, why do we not have PIDS at the stops for the 401?
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby system improver » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:43 am

tranzitjim wrote:Re SystemImprover, you mean route #900, not #903...

Yep, sorry. I have corrected it
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby Peter1805 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:04 pm

Re the 900/903 "error" - Everybody with any knowledge and with any knowledge of your level of knowledge would know that it was a pure typo.... I'm surprised anyone even mentioned it.. :roll:
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby system improver » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:57 pm

Peter1805 wrote:Re the 900/903 "error" - Everybody with any knowledge and with any knowledge of your level of knowledge would know that it was a pure typo.... I'm surprised anyone even mentioned it.

Ha, but sometimes those little grey cells go walkabout. These days I write down all the important things that I have to do. Then all I have to do is find the bit of paper.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby Peter1805 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:02 pm

system improver wrote:
Peter1805 wrote:Re the 900/903 "error" - Everybody with any knowledge and with any knowledge of your level of knowledge would know that it was a pure typo.... I'm surprised anyone even mentioned it.

Ha, but sometimes those little grey cells go walkabout. These days I write down all the important things that I have to do. Then all I have to do is find the bit of paper.


Ah yes, we of the "paper" generation.

I still like to write things down.. it's how I remember things too.. :wink:
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby RailwayBus » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:09 pm

Peter1805 wrote:Re the 900/903 "error" - Everybody with any knowledge and with any knowledge of your level of knowledge would know that it was a pure typo.... I'm surprised anyone even mentioned it.. :roll:


As am I. Hence nobody mentioning the "Supper Shuttle" typo he made! :lol:
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby revenue » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:58 pm

We considered having PIDS for 401 and 601, but with the high frequencies offered by these services, it simply isn't worth it. Customers know these services operate to a high frequency. Having PIDS would be unlikely to boost the number of people using the service (as they are already aware of the frequency). Customers at these stop don't have anxiety about when the next service is - as they come so frequently. Plenty of other places to spend money.

Having the 900 stop around the corner with 601 would introduces some benefits, but it also introduces one massive disadvantage - it means that people who are travelling beyond Monash won't be able to get on the 900. Before 601 many people were being left behind by the 900 - and they can't exactly push through to the front of the queue and say "I need to get on this bus, because I'm going beyond Monash, you can wait for the 630".

WIth the higher frequency of the 601, it means that if someone goes to the 601 stop they have an average wait time of less than two minutes (601 every four minutes, plus 630A operating four times an hour, plus 630). So if they miss a 900, it doesn't really matter. Plus the 900 has stops, and the 601 is express, so even if the 900 leaves first, the 601 will probably beat it to Monash.

So I don't think combining the two stops is a good idea.

Hence I think the double stop idea for the 900 when passengers are waiting has merit:

- It ensures that people travelling on the 900 beyond Monash can get on the bus first, avoiding stranding them until the next bus
- It means that if a 900 comes around the corner and people are waiting and there isn't a 601 (or too many people for the first bus), they can get the bus
- It means that the second stop can be prepaid (eg. if you are the 601 stop, and get on a 900, don't expect to pay cash - which drops the dwell time for the second stop)

Pros and cons - but I don't think combining the two stops is the answer - as it would remove one of the key benefits of 601, which is ensuring that route 900 passengers travelling beyond Monash can get on their bus more easily.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby tranzitjim » Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:18 pm

revenue wrote:We considered having PIDS for 401 and 601, but with the high frequencies offered by these services, it simply isn't worth it. Customers know these services operate to a high frequency. Having PIDS would be unlikely to boost the number of people using the service (as they are already aware of the frequency). Customers at these stop don't have anxiety about when the next service is - as they come so frequently. Plenty of other places to spend money.

Having the 900 stop around the corner with 601 would introduces some benefits, but it also introduces one massive disadvantage - it means that people who are travelling beyond Monash won't be able to get on the 900. Before 601 many people were being left behind by the 900 - and they can't exactly push through to the front of the queue and say "I need to get on this bus, because I'm going beyond Monash, you can wait for the 630".

WIth the higher frequency of the 601, it means that if someone goes to the 601 stop they have an average wait time of less than two minutes (601 every four minutes, plus 630A operating four times an hour, plus 630). So if they miss a 900, it doesn't really matter. Plus the 900 has stops, and the 601 is express, so even if the 900 leaves first, the 601 will probably beat it to Monash.

So I don't think combining the two stops is a good idea.

Hence I think the double stop idea for the 900 when passengers are waiting has merit:

- It ensures that people travelling on the 900 beyond Monash can get on the bus first, avoiding stranding them until the next bus
- It means that if a 900 comes around the corner and people are waiting and there isn't a 601 (or too many people for the first bus), they can get the bus
- It means that the second stop can be prepaid (eg. if you are the 601 stop, and get on a 900, don't expect to pay cash - which drops the dwell time for the second stop)

Pros and cons - but I don't think combining the two stops is the answer - as it would remove one of the key benefits of 601, which is ensuring that route 900 passengers travelling beyond Monash can get on their bus more easily.


About the stop location, that is a very good point you have stated. Although if you always had a 601 bus there waiting to pick up passengers, and had it there while a #900 went past, you may also solve that issue. Also, if you had the 601 bus waiting closer to the station with the #900 needing to stop just ahead of the 601. Therefore those running from the station for a 'university bus' would come across the 601 first in either case.

Back onto the PIDS, those bus routes would not run at 5 minute frequencies, 24 hours a day.

What if I wanted to travel early, and wanted to know when the first bus would be?

Also is there a lul in services on these routes during the day?
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby Craig » Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:07 pm

tranzitjim wrote:Back onto the PIDS, those bus routes would not run at 5 minute frequencies, 24 hours a day.

What if I wanted to travel early, and wanted to know when the first bus would be?

Also is there a lul in services on these routes during the day?


If you wanted to travel early (or late), you can consult the printed timetable in the timetable case to see if there are buses running (there is a frequency guide with first/last buses at the stops).

Route 601 runs approximately every 4 mins from 7am to 7pm, and then every 12 minutes to 9:30pm. That's without including the 630, 630A & 900 trips - there is roughly 26 buses an hour all day! :shock: :wink:

Route 401 runs every 3 mins until 10:30am, then every 6 minutes to 2:30pm, and every 3 minutes to 6:45pm and then every 6 minutes to 7:30pm.

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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby PaxInfo » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:36 am

revenue wrote:Pros and cons - but I don't think combining the two stops is the answer - as it would remove one of the key benefits of 601, which is ensuring that route 900 passengers travelling beyond Monash can get on their bus more easily.


The biggest problem with keeping seperate stops would be on weekends, when the 601 doesn't run, and the only way to Monash is via the 630 and 900, departing from different stops.

900 runs every 30 min, while 630 is an irregular 20 - 40 min frequency on Saturdays and 40 min on Sunday. Neither frequency is sufficient for each to be regarded as a stand-alone service. Although if there was a single stop, the combined (albeit lumpy) frequency (as high as 4.5 buses/hour on Saturday mornings) may encourage some to start using it as a 'turn up and go' service. If this is the case then a single stop, served by both routes, would be desirable.

For legibility it ought to be the same place that students catch the 601 during the week. The message conveyed (which would strengthen the 601, by the way) would be that you are guaranteed to get the best service to Monash by waiting at that stop, no matter what day of the week.

This introduces some inconsistency with the 900, with use of both stops on weekends and late at night, but only one on weekdays. And in principle inconsistency means complexity which is a bad thing if you want to build a legible network.

Both options, ie (a) the status quo of seperate stops, or (b) also stopping the 900 at the 601/630 stop when the 601 isn't running can be supported or opposed on legibility grounds.

(a) is most legible for 900 drivers since it's the same pattern 7 days/week. But what about the passenger? If you want to best exploit combined frequencies and convey the simplest / most consistent message for Monash passengers (ie wait here for the best service 7 days/week) then I think (b) probably wins.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby revenue » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:15 pm

Hence we get back to my original suggestion - double stopping the 900 at Huntingdale if there are passengers waiting at the stop around the corner. Double stopping is annoying, but it meets the objectives of letting people get on the 900 who are travelling beyond Monash before then loading up with people who are just going to Monash. It could be a simple rule - if the 900 (and this is only for outbound services) departs Huntingdale from its current stop and sees people around the corner, then it should pick them up. Because the 601 stop is prepaid, it would be a very quick process to board them - as they wouldn't be able to purchase tickets on board. In terms of timing, it doesn't make that much difference in dwell time between picking up 15 people at one stop or 10 at one stop and 5 at another.

So, double stop the 900 when people are waiting is my final bid...

So are we all done?...going once....twice.....final call.....anyone else.......are we all done....?
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby system improver » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:24 pm

revenue wrote:...So, double stop the 900 when people are waiting is my final bid...

Nope. Move the stop.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby 1whoknows » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:44 am

Totally agree - should have been the first thing done.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby revenue » Mon Mar 26, 2012 8:57 am

But if you combine the stops, how do you address the issue of people wanting to use the 900 who are travelling beyond Monash?
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby 1whoknows » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:41 am

How many of them would there be at the peak Monash loading time - surely most of the outbound traffic beyond Monash would be early AM or PM??

Also many such passengers would have the option of joining the 900 at Oakleigh which adds only another 2 mins to journey time. This of course assumes an intelligent user but that's OK - all the dumb ones are getting off at Monash.

And of course if you fail badly enough at Monash you get to work at RMIT and issue silly press releases about public transport.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby revenue » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:00 am

There are a quite a few travelling beyond Monash. I don't think its acceptable to tell someone to catch the train to Oakleigh to catch the bus there as that would add fifteen minutes to your travel time (eg. have to travel another station, and then travel on 900 through back streets).

One of the reasons for 601 was to ensure that people travelling beyond Monash could get onto a 900 bus with no problems. If you remove this benefit by combining the stops, it does reduce the benefits of the 601.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby BroadGauge » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:56 am

Considering the 601 runs every 4 minutes and there's probably a bus sitting in the stop awaiting departure for half the time, why do people care if the 900 services (at less than 1/3 of it's frequency) don't use the same stop? The only time I could see a point in having the 900 also pull up at the 630/601 stop would be on weekends/late nights when the 601 doesn't operate.

I doubt people going beyond Monash would love it when they have to queue for 5 minutes to get on a bus, in that time their 900 comes in, picks up other people and goes, whilst they get to the front of the queue and the next bus is a 601 that doesn't go where they want anyway.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby Craig » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:40 am

Judging by the new 630 timetable available on the PTV website (http://ptv.vic.gov.au/route/view/907) it appears the days of the 630A are numbered, and all Monash Uni - Huntingdale shortworkings will disappear after next Friday.

Given there is no new 601 timetable online, it would appear that the 630A bus will simply be absorbed as a fourth bus for Route 601, allowing the 601 buses to layover between each trip. This will cut out 4 trips an hour in each direction, but there will still be 22 services, still more than adequate I would think.

I wonder if another bus will be painted up in the 601 livery?

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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby revenue » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:28 pm

Well that took about two weeks longer for people to work out than I expected. ;)

In summary:

- The 630A is being absorbed into the 601.
- Four buses will operate the 601 service (up from three previously)
- An additional bus will be repainted into 601 livery (not sure if it will be ready for 22 April, but will be pretty soon as order has been placed).
- This will allow the 601 to have access to two bays at Monash (the 601 and the old 630A bay - this provides some benefits)
- By running four buses in a loop it will resolve some of the issues associated with the 630A departing to a timetable (eg. you can end up with simultaneous departures of 601 and 630A which isn't really desirable - you want to keep the buses evenly spaced).
- By removing the timetable from the 630A - and the longer layovers that were provided for this route - it should mean more services are able to be completed in peak times.
- The 630A was kept separate initially because it was thought that the vehicle might be able be redeployed elsewhere if the 601 was able to cope with patronage, but the patronage growth has been so large that it will be required on this corridor. Bit of a shame really - there were lots of places we could have used that bus! :P Victim of our own success.
- The above decisions were made after reviewing the patronage from March whch is the busiest time of the year for this bus service (or about three weeks from decision to implementation which is kinda cool).
- PTUA were told about the proposed change and did not raise any objections.
- Don't pay any attention to the timetables on the Metlink website, they are there so that the journey planner can calculate trips. In practise, the four buses will complete as many trips as they can. The service does not have a timetable.
- Patronage has been above expectations. Monash said it was 17,000 per week. New figures are higher than that
- Patronage is always highest in March.

I *think* (not absolutely sure) that it is also true that:
- 601 buses carry more people per vehicle per day than any other buses in metropolitan Melbourne
- the patronage of 601 will exceed 401, even though it has half the number of buses (shorter route, more return trips)

I can't think of any other route where a vehicle would carry more than a thousand passengers per day...in fact I can't think of anything that comes close.

Any finally, we will be asking the 900 bus drivers to stop again around the corner at peak times if they have space, and there are people waiting at the stop.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby Breezel » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 am

The new 601 bus is in operation today. Bus 130.
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby revenue » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:44 am

In the 601 colour scheme? If so, then that's very very impressive for them to be able to get the bus repainted in such a short time. :)
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby Apollo » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:30 pm

revenue wrote:In the 601 colour scheme?.


Yes it is
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby revenue » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:34 pm

Wow - impressive!
I have to say, the more I deal with Eastrans, the more impressed I am with them. :)
They really do have a 'can do' attitude
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Re: Huntingdale to Monash Uni Clayton shuttle

Postby cal_t » Tue Apr 24, 2012 2:36 pm

It helps that they are a smaller depot too, though? Do you not agree?
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