Various electric buses at TSA.

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tonyp
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by tonyp »

There is a centre of gravity issue with having battery packs up high. Most European buses that I'm familiar with (and the Yutong) have them on the roof only (maybe also in the rear vertical compartment). The issue of having additional packs under the floor would relate to range. Hence my question as to why an Australian citybus should require more range than a European one when it's operating in an inner city environment. If it's on services out to distant suburbs on the other hand I can understand that. I wonder if the electric bus has got tangled up in the NSW "one size fits all" philosophy?
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by stajourneyman »

So who, pray tell, is that dubious looking character in the photo applying the charger to 8104. :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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Living in the Shire.

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by stajourneyman »

stajourneyman wrote:So who, pray tell, is that dubious looking character in the photo applying the charger to 8104. :lol: :lol: :lol:
No takers??

It looks remarkably like one Robert Rachwal, former owner of Marrickville Bus Lines / Telford Tours.

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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His name gets mentioned in the article on a photo of 8105.
Living in the Shire.

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by Daniel »

stajourneyman wrote:
stajourneyman wrote:So who, pray tell, is that dubious looking character in the photo applying the charger to 8104. :lol: :lol: :lol:
No takers??

It looks remarkably like one Robert Rachwal, former owner of Marrickville Bus Lines / Telford Tours.
He is employed by TSA.

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Re: Private Observations 2019

Post by sunnyyan »

Was going to get a ride on 8107 today. Looked it up at 1230 and saw it was on its way to Glebe Pt on the 431, with no next run shown on Anytrip. Decided to go to Central because there was a chance it would return at 1313. It did end up coming back 5 minutes late, but for some reason it was running Not in Service with passengers onboard (probably set down only), so I couldn't get on.

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by Tongans101 »

tonyp wrote:
Tongans101 wrote:
Trams are not being returned to for addressing the high turn over and circulation, they have been added to increase the amount of public transport available.
Articulated buses are being phased out as they take up too much real estate on the roads.
N series chassis is not readily available in Australia and is a lot more expensive that the K series.
The electric buses are not just a "gesture", they are there to prove that they are viable and do actually work, especially now that TfNSW have been tasked with changing 10% of the fleet to alternate fuel by 2023 (650 vehicles)
The rear door location has more to do with engineering than passenger movement....its a big hole in the side of the bus and so design is required to have it positioned near a strong cross section, it also helps with seat positioning so that more seats can be fitted.
Trams are being returned to increase street public transport capacity in operations where buses can't provide the capacity. These are also typically very busy and crowded operations in which turnover and circulation are very important issues. I certainly hope that no jurisdiction is considering phasing out artics because they're the only bus type that provides these same attributes, albeit at a lower capacity, but better than nothing when there is no alternative tram or train service available. And it's not artics that take up too much road space, it's cars.

Out of interest, I understand that the additional battery packs under the floor would be for range. I deduce this from the different range figures quoted for European models that have fully low floor and Chinese models that have some high floor (and presumably battery packs under the floor as well as on the roof). However, I find it interesting that the fully low floor Yutong E12 has been acquired in fleet numbers for cities like Santiago and Sofia (not to mention Chinese cities) where the type of citybus operation would I think be very similar to that of the Sydney inner city operations. I believe that they also have full HVAC and no doubt have similar sorts of daily operating rosters, yet don't seem to need the extra batteries. What's your opinion on that? I'm not pushing any "line" here, just trying to get more factual background to inform the issue. I've ridden both the BYDs and Yutong here in Australia and very many trolleybuses over the years (including the modern European in-motion charging buses that run off wire) so I have a good feel for how electric buses should and should not operate.
The Yutong and BYD buses in Santiago and Sofia have the same amount of batteries. They are all mounted on the roof. The are different rules for their bus body safety which allows them to have all the batteries on the roof. In Australia we have more stringent rules regarding roll over safety which stops all 2 tonnes of batteries from being fitted on the roof. The European Electric buses (not BYD) run different charging systems and there fore difderent battery chemistry which allows less battery with fast charging through pantograph chargers. (Google OppCharge). There is also a lot more money available in Europe to pay for the infrastructure required for such charging systems. In Australia there is also a very narrow minded, old fashioned view, that all buses must have a range of 350km even though they don't need it for daily operations.

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by Tongans101 »

tonyp wrote:There is a centre of gravity issue with having battery packs up high. Most European buses that I'm familiar with (and the Yutong) have them on the roof only (maybe also in the rear vertical compartment). The issue of having additional packs under the floor would relate to range. Hence my question as to why an Australian citybus should require more range than a European one when it's operating in an inner city environment. If it's on services out to distant suburbs on the other hand I can understand that. I wonder if the electric bus has got tangled up in the NSW "one size fits all" philosophy?
COG issue is not an issue if its be calculated correctly.
The batteries in the back is because they all don't fit on the roof and because of range requirements set by all operators, not just those in NSW.

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Tongans101
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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Swift wrote:Why not recess the batteries into a lower ceiling or part of the way? Surely we don't need an eight foot interior height.
Australia may not be Europe, but how does that stop it from striving to adopt a superior design that exists, wherever that is, instead of just saying that's the best we'll get and that's it. That is not a satisfactory, acceptable or logical stance.

A noisey electric bus will provide a better passenger experience than a quiet diesel bus that requires a transmission. Not to mention the great reduction in mechanical maintainance and wear.
Recessing the batteries was thought of but the issue would be how to remove the batteries for maintenance. Also the structure to support those batteries would be heavy and add weight which is not good.
To answer your question on the head clearance, yes, we do need that height in the main saloon in order to maintain the required height in the rear saloon....same as in any other diesel or cng bus. Going low floor would help solve that height issue but, as mentioned in other responses, the range required by operators demands more batteries which have to go behind the rear axle, so no low floor.
So that's the best we can get at this point in time
Last edited by Tongans101 on Tue Jul 09, 2019 1:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tonyp
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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Tongans101 wrote: The Yutong and BYD buses in Santiago and Sofia have the same amount of batteries. They are all mounted on the roof. The are different rules for their bus body safety which allows them to have all the batteries on the roof. In Australia we have more stringent rules regarding roll over safety which stops all 2 tonnes of batteries from being fitted on the roof. The European Electric buses (not BYD) run different charging systems and there fore difderent battery chemistry which allows less battery with fast charging through pantograph chargers. (Google OppCharge). There is also a lot more money available in Europe to pay for the infrastructure required for such charging systems. In Australia there is also a very narrow minded, old fashioned view, that all buses must have a range of 350km even though they don't need it for daily operations.
Thank you for all of the detail explanations, they do help explain some things even though the outcome is inevitably somewhat compromised. It's interesting that the UK must also have different standards or requirements to us as their Yutong E12s are standard fully low floor. I believe that the Australian E12s have all their batteries on the roof but still have a high floor at the rear with, I'm told, nothing much of significance under the aisle. I'm still trying to get to the bottom of that as nobody seems to really know why.

The tram industry faced all these sort of issues over the last 30 years with the progression from high floor to fully low floor and the adoption of battery/capacitor power. There were some major engineering issues but they eventually overcame them all. The European bus industry, in making the same transition, was very much influenced by tram developments. Some European manufacturers such as Skoda and Solaris also develop and build both trams and buses and I am very familiar with all these developments in electric street transport in Europe over the years.

In Australia, there has been no local tram industry, nor barely a presence, to inform the bus industry and they seem to ignore the trends anyway. There are several useful efficiency, productivity and accessibility lessons for the bus industry to learn from trams if they were willing to, not only the fully low floor, but all-door loading and additional doors at both ends of the vehicle so that there are no internal "caves" that discourage people from moving into them and that they can get trapped in when trying to disembark. I fully appreciate that the ability to achieve some of these objectives is presently restricted or prevented by local rules and product availability but they're objectives nevertheless worth moving towards in the longer term. The advent of low floors on the bottom deck of local double deckers shows that some of these features are actually possible, even in Australia.
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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tonyp wrote: The advent of low floors on the bottom deck of local double deckers shows that some of these features are actually possible, even in Australia.
The latest Gemilang Double decks are a completely different chassis to a standard single deck available in Australia and its not even worth comparing. Same for the bustech which was designed from the ground up over several years. DDs have yet more rules that need to be followed on top of those for single deck!

Australia just doesn't have the available staff, knowledge, industry or money to do what's done in Europe and China. Nor is there the demand to be able to achieve the capex and opex reductions required to justify the cost.

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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Nevertheless there are positive signs here and there in the local industry. Volgren has proved to be very capable at producing fully low floor buses as required, as well as being good on seat pitch. Cambridge demonstrates that extra doors are possible when required. All is far from lost and some significant improvements are possible when there's a will or, more particularly, government leadership.
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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tonyp wrote:Nevertheless there are positive signs here and there in the local industry. Volgren has proved to be very capable at producing fully low floor buses as required, as well as being good on seat pitch. Cambridge demonstrates that extra doors are possible when required. All is far from lost and some significant improvements are possible when there's a will or, more particularly, government leadership.
Guessing you mean Carbridge on the 3 door buses at the airport....designed by Australians in Australia by Gemilang Australia. The will is always there, hands get tied by regulations, available chassis and technology. Government leadership has had nothing to do with recent bus design!!

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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Public transport is a government led industry, TSA or not, it would be absolutely silly to suggest government leadership has no influence. Governments are the one buying bus after all, and the manufacturers need to know the market if they want to make money. If governments are lazy, then so will the makers of buses, because they don't need to change their ways to win orders.

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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rogf24 wrote:Public transport is a government led industry, TSA or not, it would be absolutely silly to suggest government leadership has no influence. Governments are the one buying bus after all, and the manufacturers need to know the market if they want to make money. If governments are lazy, then so will the makers of buses, because they don't need to change their ways to win orders.
The new orders of low floors in Victoria are a government-led initiative. For sure the industry most likely wouldn't have gone this direction on its own initiative. I believe the various orders of double deckers are also a result of government initiatives, as are the electric buses. I don't blame the local industry for simply being reactive of course. In such a small industry it's very risky undertaking speculative ventures if it's not followed by substantial orders.
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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tonyp wrote: The new orders of low floors in Victoria are a government-led initiative. For sure the industry most likely wouldn't have gone this direction on its own initiative. I believe the various orders of double deckers are also a result of government initiatives, as are the electric buses. I don't blame the local industry for simply being reactive of course. In such a small industry it's very risky undertaking speculative ventures if it's not followed by substantial orders.
The Victorian low floors are not exactly a government led initiative, the only Vic Government policy is for the buses to be locally manufactured. The purchase of low floor Volvo B5LH buses was because CDC Victoria wanted hybrid buses for environment benefits having trialled one, the fact the hybrid chassis was only offered by Volvo for Euro 6 emissions in low floor format meant that is what CDCVic specified in the order.

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Re: Private Observations 2019

Post by Stu »

The Yutong E12 electric bus is currently at Transit Systems Leichhardt. The Premier company logo decal has been removed, the bus may be there for evaluation.

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Re: Private Observations 2019

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Stu wrote:The Yutong E12 electric bus is currently at Transit Systems Leichhardt. The Premier company logo decal has been removed, the bus may be there for evaluation.
I didn't expect the trial on the south coast to end so soon. I hope somebody will eventually get to look underneath to see the reason for that high floor (aisle) at the back - i.e. whether there are battery packs under there. I hope it goes into route service so you guys will be able to compare the two. I have my own opinion that one is overall better than the other but I'll keep it to myself so as not to influence prejudgement!
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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BluDART wrote:
The Victorian low floors are not exactly a government led initiative, the only Vic Government policy is for the buses to be locally manufactured. The purchase of low floor Volvo B5LH buses was because CDC Victoria wanted hybrid buses for environment benefits having trialled one, the fact the hybrid chassis was only offered by Volvo for Euro 6 emissions in low floor format meant that is what CDCVic specified in the order.
That's one aspect to it, but these buses were originally introduced by Latrobe Valley, a much smaller concern where the project was actively backed by PTV which made some emphasis in the publicity on the benefits of them being fully low floor - in words that showed that they understood the reasons for having a fully low floor. To quote the press release:
All eight buses will feature low-floor layouts to improve passenger access and safety,
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by bussie »

tonyp wrote:
BluDART wrote:
The Victorian low floors are not exactly a government led initiative, the only Vic Government policy is for the buses to be locally manufactured. The purchase of low floor Volvo B5LH buses was because CDC Victoria wanted hybrid buses for environment benefits having trialled one, the fact the hybrid chassis was only offered by Volvo for Euro 6 emissions in low floor format meant that is what CDCVic specified in the order.
That's one aspect to it, but these buses were originally introduced by Latrobe Valley, a much smaller concern where the project was actively backed by PTV which made some emphasis in the publicity on the benefits of them being fully low floor - in words that showed that they understood the reasons for having a fully low floor. To quote the press release:
All eight buses will feature low-floor layouts to improve passenger access and safety,
Thats an effect of the purchase, not a cause.

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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bussie wrote: Thats an effect of the purchase, not a cause.
The point I'm making is that PTV actually recognise the benefits of fully low floor to the extent of highlighting it: "to improve passenger access and safety". That is to say, people are encouraged more to move down the back, more seats are available to people with accessibility issues and the risk of accidents from people tripping/falling on stairs is reduced. The alternative (which I suspect would be the case in the NSW bus bureaucracy) would be that it would go unnoticed, merely attributed to happenstance, as you suggest.
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

Post by Daniel »

Are you sure it’s just not another throw away line?

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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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Daniel wrote:Are you sure it’s just not another throw away line?
I've seen it elaborated on in another release but I'd have to dig around to find it again. I believe it's also not the only Volvo hybrid chassis on the market so a choice was made. Obviously other factors would have been considered in that choice as well.
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Re: TSA Electric buses built by Gemilang Australia.

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tonyp wrote:
Daniel wrote:Are you sure it’s just not another throw away line?
I've seen it elaborated on in another release but I'd have to dig around to find it again. I believe it's also not the only Volvo hybrid chassis on the market so a choice was made. Obviously other factors would have been considered in that choice as well.
The only Volvo hybrid chassis available to the Aus market is the Volvo B5LH Hybrid. It comes in two chassis variants with a standard rear axle or a portal rear axle
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