YUTONG ELECTRIC BUS STARS AT NSW GOVT E-BUS LAUNCH

[tonyp]

As for seat squabs the bench ones also seem to be short on the Bustechs.

Seat pitch refers to the distance between a point on one seat and the same point on the seat in front of it. It's more to do with knee room rather than squab length. I had the impression that Bustech is quite good on seat pitch, so is Volgren, Custom not so much. The fact that I'm 1.9 metres tall also means that manufacturers have a somewhat severe judge here - but destruction testing is not such a bad thing!

[tonyp]

Here is footage from the Gerringing on-ramp (northwards) to the crest of Mt Pleasant (Saddleback), taken from the second row from the back. The first 1:20 min is along the flat at about 100 km/h for about 3 km, then about 1.5 km, 120 metre altitude climb up the mountain with the video finishing just over the top when you can see Wollongong in the distance. I haven't calculated the gradient but it's steep, not helped by RMS putting the 80 km/h sign at the bottom of the grade rather than about halfway up where it should be. You can hear the revs come off, but the driver says that it takes this grade more easily than a diesel bus. Lesser grades along the route you barely notice.

Turn the volume on full and you still won't be troubled by engine noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mdUxjL ... e=youtu.be

[rogf24]

Do you know which runs they do?

[tonyp]

Do you know which runs they do?

At the moment (reading from the Kiama end as that is no doubt where many of you would start if coming from the north), 08:00 and 11:00. From the Bomaderry end, 05:35, 07:00, 10:00. The intention is to ultimately expand this to the whole of the timetable.

I would also encourage anybody to try the Carbridge Toro on the Blue Emu (long-term) carpark service at Sydney Airport for comparison. There is no policing of who is on the bus. If you're not actually parking in the carpark, pick up the bus at either the Virgin or Qantas domestic termini and ride it into any stop around the carpark, disembark (to avoid being queried by the driver why you're staying on the bus), then pick up the next bus that comes along (with a bit of luck you might score an Optare too).

[matthewg]

I still think this is an odd location to test an electric bus. Their forte is stop-start city traffic making maximum use of regenerative braking. Belting down an open semi-rural highway at 100km/h is about the worst use case possible.

The sustained heavy load of highway speeds will kill that battery pack quick smart. The bus will kill its battery pack in 12 months, TfNSW can then declare the whole thing a failure and they can get on with the business of buying more diesel buses to choke up our inner city air with.

The Carbirdge run around the airport is probably almost an ideal use case - low speeds, so low / short max draw down on the battery, start-stop, so the electric brake comes onto its own, etc.

[tonyp]

I still think this is an odd location to test an electric bus. Their forte is stop-start city traffic making maximum use of regenerative braking. Belting down an open semi-rural highway at 100km/h is about the worst use case possible.

The sustained heavy load of highway speeds will kill that battery pack quick smart. The bus will kill its battery pack in 12 months, TfNSW can then declare the whole thing a failure and they can get on with the business of buying more diesel buses to choke up our inner city air with.

The Carbirdge run around the airport is probably almost an ideal use case - low speeds, so low / short max draw down on the battery, start-stop, so the electric brake comes onto its own, etc.

Its configuration is as a citybus. I'm sure that the next phase of testing will be in urban running. There is nevertheless plenty of opportunity for regeneration on this service and the driver has to ensure that he maximises it. It's not a straight 100 km/h run from Bomaderry to Kiama, it dips into stop-start suburban streets in Bomaderry, Berry, Gerringong and Kiama and also plenty of downhills along the run requiring braking.

[tonyp]

I've been doing a bit of backgrounding on this bus model and the E12 is definitely a low-floor bus and quite a lot of them have now gone to countries spread around the world, either as orders or demonstrators. There is a RHD demonstrator in Liverpool, UK, where they haven't batted an eyelid at receiving a low-floor without feeling the need to put a high floor in the back to make it acceptable (the Australian bus industry is certainly an odd bird). The Australian demonstrator would be the only E12 in the world modified in this way, as there's an alternative low-entry model should anybody want that configuration.

By the way, I forgot to mention that the bus also has a back window but on the Australian demonstrator that has been covered over with a solid wrap as you can see in the photos. The E12 also has a significant "parcel shelf" at the back because of the rear-accessed equipment below it and, like the Toro, this shortening of the interior is why they would have a bit of sweat fitting in a decent number of seats (for short people!). What would probably be a 44 seater if it were a diesel bus becomes a 40 seater, but I think its prime role would be a more of a standee bus for intense inner-urban operations (think Gong Shuttle, Perth CATs, Bondi service). This why the low floor is significant.

The bus is basically similar to/derived from a combustion-engined model known as the Yutong Low Floor Citybus, which has found its way to Australia where it has been modifed to low-entry to accomodate the favoured underfloor diesel engine. Again, this bus is low-floor in other markets and, despite initially joking about Yutong's mis-description of its Australian model, I now realise that Yutong knows precisely what the terminology distinction means (unlike much of our local industry) and when they describe a model as low floor or low entry, that's what it is - until Australians mess around with the design.

Here is a description of the similar UK demonstrator from the 2016 UK Euro Bus Expo:

Yutong had a large team present in Birmingham and talking to Ren Hong, Director of the International Marketing Department, I was told that while some are using NMC or LTO battery technology Yutong believes that LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) offers the most reliable and stable option at this stage. The entire bus including all of the electrical components (but not the European built ZF axles and steering and certain other European components) was designed in Yutong’s own R&D facility though some parts were built on its behalf by contractors. It was exclusive to Yutong and not available to any other manufacturer. The bus was shown with Yutong’s own door system but operators could specify Ventura if they wished.

I was told that the monocoque aluminium framed bus weighs 14tonnes, three tonnes of which is the batteries. Displayed with a single door it can alternatively have dual doors. The driveline layout is conventional in that a big electric motor (YTM280-CV9-H) replaces the engine and gearbox; it does not have hub motors. In the form shown the range was said to be over 200km with the air conditioning running and over 250km without. All of the 16 modular battery packs (weighing 180kg per pack) are roof mounted and the bus has been successfully tilt tested. It is claimed that the batteries will still retain at least 80% capacity after a minimum of 3,000 full discharge cycles, the equivalent of around nine years service. Recharging is overnight and takes five to six hours using a 60kW charger though there is also a fast charge option taking 120-150 minutes which requires a 150kW charger. For the time being the company is not offering battery rental packages but says it will work on them depending on market requirements.

Ren Hong stressed that this was a true zero emission bus on which the doors, heating, pumps, steering and other key systems were all electric. There were no diesel pre heaters, though if you wanted that it was possible at a reduced price.

Warranty terms are two years on the whole vehicle with five years (with no mileage limit) as standard on the battery and electrical components. This can be extended at a cost to eight years. As shown, the price of the bus was £350,000. In addition Yutong will be supplying the recharging systems which cost £35,600 for a two bus 60kW charger and £82,500 for a four bus 150kW charger. I was told that both charging systems plug straight into the mains and are ready to go, though you would need to make arrangements with your supplier before doing so.

This is the interior of that E12 which I think may be the one being trialled in Liverpool. Of course, it has that British oddity, a single (front) door only and the typical emergency exit on the offside.

[tonyp]

Comprehensive review here from Australian Bus and Coach with plenty of meat for tech-heads among you. Typical industry review, all about the operator and driver and absolutely nothing about the passenger space or its functionality as a transit vehicle.

https://www.busnews.com.au/bus-reviews/ ... 1iEGhey74w

[tonyp]

Here is a recent video of an E12 on urban duty in Sofia, Bulgaria. It is of course low floor as per the standard model spec and is a three-door, a configuration not possible in Australia without major re-engineering as the motor/drivetrain is on the left side of the bus (same situation as with diesels). The characteristic quietness and acceleration are notable and there are comments about quality and range, whether speculative or not I couldn't say.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPguVWzMrmc

Why do bus (and tram for that matter!) fans filming inside buses keep the camera pointing straight ahead and never pan side to side and up and down occasionally so that we get a general picture of the bus, floor, doors etc so we can see how it all works? Pet annoyance together with external photos of buses and trams only taken from the offside!

[gld59]

Avoid hostility from pax who think they're being creepy?

[tonyp]

Avoid hostility from pax who think they're being creepy?

Sitting in the back row behind everybody - as typical for such videos - this isn't an issue.

[lunchbox]

tonyp,
How advanced is the design for the production-line electric buses? Is it too late to lobby for fully low foor?

[tonyp]

tonyp,
How advanced is the design for the production-line electric buses? Is it too late to lobby for fully low foor?

This bus has been in full production for some time and is sold in significant numbers around the world. It is a fully low-floor bus as its model designation indicates. It's the Australian distributor who ordered this one to be produced as a low-entry variant specifically as an Australian demonstrator. The only explanation that has come forward is that it has been adapted to the "requirements of the Australian market". There is nothing under the high aisle at the back that can't be under the seats as is the case with every other example of this model around the world.

It's one of those deeply frustrating incidences about the Australian bus industry that defies rational explanation but does reveal how deeply out of touch they are with end-use issues. To quote the late Geoff Johnson again, the industry is run by mechanics, not passenger transport people. It's their loss in the end as more and more bus corridors in Australia are replaced by trams because the bus industry can't lift their game to deliver more.

Yutong Australia has also junked one of their biggest competitive advantages over the Carbridge Toro electric bus. Great business move.

[Merc1107]

To quote the late Geoff Johnson again, the industry is run by mechanics, not passenger transport people.

If I may... If there's nothing there to access in the first place, then I don't even think that concern is even remotely valid. Nor would cost be - especially if a truly low-floor chassis has been modified to low-entry for our 'market conditions.'

Isn't it amazing, over 20yrs ago we had the DAB Midcity buses working Perth CATs (and presently a two-door Iveco Citelis low-floor artic); technology has advanced to do away with the cited maintenance impracticality of low-floor buses, yet what has happened here with the electric bus is practically choosing to regress.

[tonyp]

If I may... If there's nothing there to access in the first place, then I don't even think that concern is even remotely valid. Nor would cost be - especially if a truly low-floor chassis has been modified to low-entry for our 'market conditions.'

Isn't it amazing, over 20yrs ago we had the DAB Midcity buses working Perth CATs (and presently a two-door Iveco Citelis low-floor artic); technology has advanced to do away with the cited maintenance impracticality of low-floor buses, yet what has happened here with the electric bus is practically choosing to regress.

There was also the ACT fleet of Irisbus Agoralines (derived from the Renault Agora, the pioneering mass-produced low-floor bus of the 1990s in Europe) in the 2000s and a number of Scania N series low-floor artics purchased in Victoria and NSW about 10 years ago. All of these designs sailed under the noses of their various owner agencies and operators apparently without triggering the slightest understanding of their true significance, or the fact that the design was a result of intensive studies to improve operational efficiency and productivity in Europe. The local Yutong representative, as quoted by ABC magazine, thinks that the only reason that European buses are fully low floor is because they have an extra door right at the back, completly ignoring the many other low floors without a back door - including the Paris Yutong E12. Goddam it's frustrating, I just don't know how you get through.

Incidentally, Perth should be going for low floors with this new order, especially with the extremely busy CAT buses.

[burrumbus]

Do you know which runs they do?

At the moment (reading from the Kiama end as that is no doubt where many of you would start if coming from the north), 08:00 and 11:00. From the Bomaderry end, 05:35, 07:00, 10:00. The intention is to ultimately expand this to the whole of the timetable.

I would also encourage anybody to try the Carbridge Toro on the Blue Emu (long-term) carpark service at Sydney Airport for comparison. There is no policing of who is on the bus. If you're not actually parking in the carpark, pick up the bus at either the Virgin or Qantas domestic termini and ride it into any stop around the carpark, disembark (to avoid being queried by the driver why you're staying on the bus), then pick up the next bus that comes along (with a bit of luck you might score an Optare too).

Yes you can ride the Carbridge Blue Emu service very easily with the lovely variety of vehicles that Carbridge operate on it.It would be one of the busiest pax per km services in Sydney and very well operated.

[tonyp]

and very well operated.

Except for using buses with huge stairs and a high floor at the back which really constrains them when carrying some of the massive loads that the service carries. Which proves the point I'm making!

The operational part is also constrained by the poor road/priority arrangements provided by the airport, often resulting in buses being stuck in unmoving traffic despite priority lanes (which are bokcked by cars). A couple of flight crew have said to me that they've sometimes nearly been late for their duty because of this.

[tonyp]

It looks like RATP Paris is not going with Yutong and is to acquire 800 electric buses from European manufacturers:

https://www.intelligenttransport.com/tr ... pollution/

[neilrex]

Here is footage from the Gerringing on-ramp (northwards) to the crest of Mt Pleasant (Saddleback), taken from the second row from the back. The first 1:20 min is along the flat at about 100 km/h for about 3 km, then about 1.5 km, 120 metre altitude climb up the mountain with the video finishing just over the top when you can see Wollongong in the distance. I haven't calculated the gradient but it's steep, not helped by RMS putting the 80 km/h sign at the bottom of the grade rather than about halfway up where it should be. You can hear the revs come off, but the driver says that it takes this grade more easily than a diesel bus. Lesser grades along the route you barely notice.

Turn the volume on full and you still won't be troubled by engine noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mdUxjL ... e=youtu.be

105 views, 0 likes. Tough crowd.

[tonyp]

Probably the absence of a rattling Diesel engine and the whine of a gearbox make it a bit boring!

[tonyp]

Just a reminder that BYD also produces low-floor electric buses:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZJuYogDDCw

The Chinese are smart and up with the latest. It's an "only in Australia" thing that an agency or operator can take a piece of the latest tech and convert it back to the previous generation by putting a high floor in it. Even the Brits don't do it and I don't think the Americans would either, so that's really saying something. Onya Yutong Australia and Carbridge - the local bus industry scores an own goal again.

[neilrex]

All the buses in china have high floor at the back and that is where passengers prefer to sit there, too.

[tonyp]

All the buses in china have high floor at the back and that is where passengers prefer to sit there, too.

No not all, the Yutong E12 is also available and sold in China and I'm sure it's the same with BYD. People prefer to sit at the back in low floor buses too. The seats are exactly the same - same height, same number - as with a high floor. A lot of people seem to have trouble coming to terms with that fact. The seats at the back aren't low, the stepless aisle is.

[tonyp]

Another E12 appears to be on our shores without any particular client so far:

https://www.busnews.com.au/detail/yutong-e12-693277

[moa999]

A lot more rooftop batteries on that compared to the BYD/Gemilang that recently started service.