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Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:07 pm

iamthouth wrote:Regarding the 5 Hillsbus artics, their capacity are 80 seats plus only 12 standees, for at total of 92.

I've seen that sort of figure before on local artics but I can't imagine how they derive it. The standees would be more than a metre apart if evenly spread! Sometimes you have to go past this bs and assume that an artic can carry at least 100, just as a 12 metre rigid will carry much more than TfNSW's nominal 58. On the other hand, it's unrealistic to think that they will carry the respective 150 and 100 that they are typically authorised for in Europe. I go by a rule of thumb that an Australian artic should be able to carry in the range 100-120 and a current type of typical decker 100+ (somebody might care to nominate an upper figure for Australian operation). A further consideration is that the number of doors might restrict the practical capacity if people are getting on and off all the time but maybe not if they're all just travelling end to end (like to an event).
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby boronia » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:12 pm

Some of these standee limitations are based on axle loads rather than space constraints. The old Atlanteans were limited to (IIRC) just five standees because any more would (using average weight calculations) put them over the allowance.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:29 pm

boronia wrote:Some of these standee limitations are based on axle loads rather than space constraints. The old Atlanteans were limited to (IIRC) just five standees because any more would (using average weight calculations) put them over the allowance.

Yes I appreciate that. It could be to do with the 80 seats. However, usually the tolerances with a human load are a little more generous. Use of heavy materials and components in the bus maybe?
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby hugh45 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 9:29 pm

I can think of two articulated buses in Sydney not counted above. One is with Kingsgrove Bus Service at Peakhurst and the other with Shire Bus Service at Heathcote. These buses are used for charter services.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Linto63 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:50 pm

tonyp wrote:
boronia wrote:However, usually the tolerances with a human load are a little more generous.
Evidently the industry feels differently, wanting the increase in GVM from 16 to 18 tonnes to be used as a more realistic reflection of the average weight of a person rather than as a green light to increase capacity. https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... t-increase

Don't know in which century or what sample was used to calculate the average Australian as weighing 65kg, a classroom of 8 year olds or the jockey's room at Randwick perhaps, 80kg is more realistic.

Sid Fogg's operate 7 ex ACTION Renaults in Newcastle, presumably they have regular school work to warrant.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:52 am

Linto63 wrote:Evidently the industry feels differently, wanting the increase in GVM from 16 to 18 tonnes to be used as a more realistic reflection of the average weight of a person rather than as a green light to increase capacity. https://www.busnews.com.au/industry-new ... t-increase

Don't know in which century or what sample was used to calculate the average Australian as weighing 65kg, a classroom of 8 year olds or the jockey's room at Randwick perhaps, 80kg is more realistic.

Sid Fogg's operate 7 ex ACTION Renaults in Newcastle, presumably they have regular school work to warrant.

The adult average sits at about 77kg assuming equal numbers of females and males. A couple of points are that artics have emerged only over the last 30-40 years and that this doesn't really explain why one might be rated at 92 passengers and others at 106-120 when they're basically the same size bus with three axles.

Thanks for the tip about Sid Fogg. I wonder how long they'll be around for as they're getting to quite an age? I'll include them because school buses are regular route buses, but if the ones from Kingsgrove and Shire are only charter I won't. I think this stays in sync with the division of Tim's listing of urban double deckers, a number of which are only for charter and tourist services rather than route services.

Figures in my original post are amended, with totals. I wonder what is the size of the total national route bus fleet (commuter and school)?
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Linto63 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:58 am

tonyp wrote:..doesn't really explain why one might be rated at 92 passengers and others at 106-120 when they're basically the same size bus with three axles.
8 wheels vs 10 perhaps, or different ratings for drive vs tag axles? IIRC the weight issue was why some Hillsbus and State Transit vehicles received alloy wheels.

I have a vague recollection (bus not entirely confident) that vehicle weights were included on registration stickers, if so this may be a way of analysing.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby hugh45 » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:09 am

Tony The articulates from Kingsgrove Bus Service and Shire Bus Service are regularly used to transfer school children for sport activities. I often see these buses at Scarborough Park, Kogarah along with other buses. Kingsgrove Bus Service will often use 6 or more buses to transfer school children to Scarborough Park. They probably use other buses for the same function to other sports related places. However they do not do route services.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Tue Aug 28, 2018 5:49 pm

Something that might explain the apparent ceased uptake of new 14.5 metre buses is the Controlled Access restrictions:

http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/business-indu ... buses.html

In this, 14.5s appear to have a list of route restrictions as long as your arm, while double deckers, under separate provisions, appear to be getting approval on an as-required basis, with RMS having to physically "clear" any route prior to commencement. Artics don't appear to have any such restriction, apparently being able to operate anywhere a 12 metre rigid bus can.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby mandonov » Tue Aug 28, 2018 7:51 pm

Interesting documents there. The DD approved routes aren't an exhaustive list as there's no mention of the roads used for the M92, and the document is dated 4 days ago.

The list specifying where 14.5m's definitely can't go is really focused around the eastern suburbs and Blue Mountains.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Frosty » Tue Aug 28, 2018 8:59 pm

Interesting restrictions on 14.5m buses are really focused on Rosebery & Waterloo. Which makes sense with quite a few roundabouts and small bus stops and other issues effectively banning 343 from 14.5m buses. It mentions Elizabeth/Chalmers St 14.5m buses being prohibted between Cleveland St & Bourke St. The X93 uses the aforementioned roads which occasionally has 14.5m buses. Not to mention all the coach operators such as Murray's & Greyhound they use 14.5m buses on these routes.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Fleet Lists » Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:34 pm

mandonov wrote:Interesting documents there. The DD approved routes aren't an exhaustive list as there's no mention of the roads used for the M92, and the document is dated 4 days ago.


It certainly mentions some of the state roads used by the M92 starting at James Ruse Drive and going at least to Alfords Point Road
http://www.rms.nsw.gov.au/documents/bus ... routes.pdf
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby mandonov » Tue Aug 28, 2018 11:13 pm

Ah, so it does
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Thu Aug 30, 2018 7:06 am

One outstanding checkup from my list is how many of the 165 remaining STA artics are 1.5 door and how many are 3 door? Are all of the 77 Euro 3 CB60s the 1.5 door and the 88 Euro 5 Volgrens the 3 door? It appears that way in the fleetlist but I just wanted to be sure that some hadn't slipped through the net either way.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Frosty » Thu Aug 30, 2018 5:00 pm

tonyp wrote:One outstanding checkup from my list is how many of the 165 remaining STA artics are 1.5 door and how many are 3 door? Are all of the 77 Euro 3 CB60s the 1.5 door and the 88 Euro 5 Volgrens the 3 door? It appears that way in the fleetlist but I just wanted to be sure that some hadn't slipped through the net either way.


That should be correct as the former odd-ball STA artics were handed over to Transit Systems.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Tim Williams » Fri Aug 31, 2018 9:03 am

Are the "Authorised roads for Double Deckers" as published by the RMS ready for operation by deckers? In other words have tree branches, poles, signs and shop awnings been attended to, along all those roads??
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:39 am

Tim Williams wrote:Are the "Authorised roads for Double Deckers" as published by the RMS ready for operation by deckers? In other words have tree branches, poles, signs and shop awnings been attended to, along all those roads??

That appears to be the case.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Tim Williams » Fri Aug 31, 2018 10:58 am

Amazing - and I will get around my (now more positive) thoughts, with photos on full low floors shortly.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Fri Aug 31, 2018 11:22 am

Tim Williams wrote:Amazing - and I will get around my (now more positive) thoughts, with photos on full low floors shortly.
Thanks.

As far as I can see, all those routes in the list are ones on which services operated by double deckers are already in operation, therefore the routes were engineered in advance as part of the project. There is no speculative engineering of roads on the chance that double deckers might run along them as it is quite an expensive business. In the case of the Bondi corridor, it was obviously decided that the cost of relocating power poles and wires was just too expensive (apart from the other reasons for choosing artics).

It's a quite a brutal business engineering urban space for double deckers, probably second only to building tramways! (Corner-cutting to accomodate 14.5s probably rates third and I don't imagine much of that was done in the end.) These costs are now born by government, but back in the 1950s, engineering for double deckers to replace the trams was assisted by the Traffic Safety (Lights and Hoardings) Act of 1951 under which property owners, no less, were ordered to cut back their awnings at their own expense! By 1959, 804 property owners had been ordered to do so and 606 had complied by then. Route-engineering would be a significant financial consideration in selecting services to be operated by double deckers in Sydney.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Off The Rails » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:01 pm

Bus Suggestions wrote:Correction: WA 102

Correction - WA has 103 (3000 to 3102).

Cheers! :wink:
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby In Transit » Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:27 pm

tonyp wrote:In the case of the Bondi corridor, it was obviously decided that the cost of relocating power poles and wires was just too expensive (apart from the other reasons for choosing artics).


Alternatively, given a modern fleet of artics was already available, and highly suitable for the corridor, perhaps double deckers weren't seriously considered at all...
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Mon Sep 03, 2018 7:40 am

In Transit wrote:Alternatively, given a modern fleet of artics was already available, and highly suitable for the corridor, perhaps double deckers weren't seriously considered at all...

I wouldn't have even mentioned it if it wasn't highlighted in the government's press release, which suggests that they did seriously consider the option. When you put that in the context of an earlier announcement that they plan to phase out artics and replace them with deckers, it suggests that the choice of artics for this corridor was made under sufference (for them, but a great relief for one of us!).
Last edited by tonyp on Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby Fleet Lists » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:01 am

tonyp wrote:(for them, but a great relief for most of us!).

That is if TonP represents MOST of us.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby boronia » Mon Sep 03, 2018 9:01 am

tonyp wrote:
Tim Williams wrote:Are the "Authorised roads for Double Deckers" as published by the RMS ready for operation by deckers? In other words have tree branches, poles, signs and shop awnings been attended to, along all those roads??

That appears to be the case.

From a quick look, these roads appear to be related to routes already in use.

Presumably RMS would survey more, if operators requested?

These would only be "state" roads, local councils might have to approval local roads.
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Re: Distribution of high-capcity buses in NSW

Postby tonyp » Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:00 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:
tonyp wrote:(for them, but a great relief for most of us!).

That is if TonP represents MOST of us.

Fixed!
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