Route/Timetable changes 23rd and 30th September 2018

[Ray]

Looks like Brookvale is doing all the extra 136s, which means a lot of special running between the Northern Beaches and Chatswood.

I bet the operator wishes they had a depot conveniently located in Willoughby...oh hang on, my bad....

[BanksfielderIdiot823]

It's a shame that Melbourne doesn't have any 24/7 routes though, except for Skybus. Sydney has 22 bus routes (includes Nightride) that runs 24/7 plus the tram as far as The Star.

If by "24/7", you guys actually mean "late night services" then you're right with the Sydney stuff, but for Melbourne you've got some more research to do.

Melbourne does get quite close with the Night Network; running trains all night on Fridays and Saturdays (except for the Racecourse and Stony Point lines. Oh, and the City Loop and Southern Cross are also shut; everything runs from Flinders St. I know, it's just Friday and Saturday, calm the heck down.). You're right, the Skybus between MEL and Southern Cross does operate 24/7, but it's not a myki-ticketed service, so from where I see it, it doesn't count.

For Sydney, the Nightride routes don't count as "24/7" routes. Nightride just runs between Midnight and 4am to cover for the trains that are asleep. If a nightride runs 24/7, then I'd be about to see a Volgren Optimus with N60 to Town Hall come into Fairfield Station right smack at 2:00pm on a Monday afternoon. Now midnight to 4:00am doesn't constitute as 24 hours now, does it?

Looks like Sydney's ONLY true 24/7 services are the M54, 301, 373, 394, 420/420N (counts as one route unless your origin/destination is Domestic Airport) and the 400 between Eastgardens and Bondi Junction.

Melbourne's trams can't match the 24/7 coverage, but even setting this aside, flagship routes such as the 96 don't match the 333's frequency.

There is no way in hell that you could expect the frequency on a tram route to match up with that on a bus route that has the significance of the 333. There's just no way. If a tram route was like that and one broke down, the whole network would go into meltdown in a matter of minutes, just like when you put too many trains in the city circle at one time.

[tonyp]

There is no way in hell that you could expect the frequency on a tram route to match up with that on a bus route that has the significance of the 333. There's just no way. If a tram route was like that and one broke down, the whole network would go into meltdown in a matter of minutes, just like when you put too many trains in the city circle at one time.

Very common in Europe to run tram services at closer headways than 333, even down to 30 second headways. If a tram breaks down (extremely rare, rarer than buses), the service is typically diverted by another route. CSELR has a design capacity of a tram every two minutes and will use that from the beginning for events, between Chalmers St and Moore Park/ Randwick Racecourse. Also pretty sure that Melbourne's Swanston St corridor, for starters, carries about a tram per minute each way in peaks. In Australia generally at present, trams are able to run at closer headways than buses because of their multiple doors and all-door loading which gives them a quicker dwell time at stops.

And then on top of this, the matter of capacity. If we talk about standard 30 metre trams (not even mentioning 45 or 60 metre trams), you need two articulated buses to move the same number of people as one tram. So if you are running a tram every 2 minutes you will need artics every one minute, at which point it starts to get impossible to get through traffic light cycles without bunching etc.

[Ray]

Trackless trams might be an option, Tony? (but maybe that's for another thread)

[BroadGauge]

If by "24/7", you guys actually mean "late night services" then you're right with the Sydney stuff, but for Melbourne you've got some more research to do.

How do they?

Melbourne does get quite close with the Night Network; running trains all night on Fridays and Saturdays

How is that "quite close" to a 24/7 service when it only runs on 2 out of 7 days of the week?

There is quite literally no public transport at all in Melbourne on a Sunday night, Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night or Thursday night.

For Sydney, the Nightride routes don't count as "24/7" routes. Nightride just runs between Midnight and 4am to cover for the trains that are asleep. If a nightride runs 24/7, then I'd be about to see a Volgren Optimus with N60 to Town Hall come into Fairfield Station right smack at 2:00pm on a Monday afternoon. Now midnight to 4:00am doesn't constitute as 24 hours now, does it?

You can make the same journeys from 04:00 to 00:00 by train, and from 00:00 to 04:00 by bus. Seems like a 24/7 service to me! It defnitely seems a lot more like a 24/7 service than one that only runs on 2 out of 7 days of the week.

Beats having no service at all between for five hours of the day like in Melbourne on the majority of days of the week

[BanksfielderIdiot823]

Oh good gracious me. A lot of quoting to do here...

Tonyp's post: At least it's possible in Europe because they can actually do things right my friend. But I was actually talking about the frequency on just a single route alone; say, if the 86 had a tram every 3 minutes and the 96 had a tram every 3 minutes and etc. Thanks for the explanation though, I appreciate it.

How is that "quite close" to a 24/7 service when it only runs on 2 out of 7 days of the week?

There is quite literally no public transport at all in Melbourne on a Sunday night, Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night or Thursday night.

Read the start of my initial post where I said "If by "24/7", you guys actually mean "late night services"..." because a lot of people misuse "24/7" nowadays.

You can make the same journeys from 04:00 to 00:00 by train, and from 00:00 to 04:00 by bus. Seems like a 24/7 service to me! It defnitely seems a lot more like a 24/7 service than one that only runs on 2 out of 7 days of the week.

...except if you live in Yagoona, Birrong, or in my LGA in Carramar. You know what, even a few places along the Illawarra line towards Waterfall doesn't even have Nightride. Sydney is not just the Inner City and the CBD.

[BroadGauge]

Boss, read the start of my initial post where I said "If by "24/7", you guys actually mean "late night services"..." because a lot of people misuse "24/7" nowadays.

All that I'm seeing here is a bunch of rambling on about technicalities. Most normal people would consider that if they can catch a train to the city at most times, or fall back on catching a bus to the city that replaces the train when the trains aren't running, that they have a 24/7 public transport service.

It's the same as arguing that North Bondi doesn't have a 24 hour service to the city anymore, because the day service is the 333 and the night service is the 333N.

...except if you live in Yagoona, Birrong, or in my LGA in Carramar. You know what, even a few places along the Illawarra line towards Waterfall doesn't even have Nightride. Sydney is not just the Inner City and the CBD.

Nobody here ever claimed that the nightride bus network services every single station and line in the network. That has nothing at all to do with anything.

And also, extremely few people would consider the outer areas serviced by nightride buses such as Penrith, Cronulla and Campbelltown to be "inner city"

[Daniel]

I’ve just had to clean up a lot of junk from this thread... don’t make me have to do it again.

[J_Busworth]

The new 400/420 is starting to really annoy me. The 400 runs through the Airport and Mascot 2 or so minutes ahead of the 420 consistently throughout the day. This means that the 400 (predominantly Citaros and VSTMs) get really overcrowded whilst the 420 (1 in 2 are 14.5s) carry fresh air between the Airport and Eastgardens. It is really that hard to run an even 10 minute frequency?

[thunderbird]

It is really that hard to run an even 10 minute frequency?

Given the unpredictable nature of traffic around the airport terminals and approaches on Marsh and O'Riordan streets? Yes I'd say it is extremely difficult.

[moa999]

You mean they are actually running near time..

A quick look at Mascot - Domestic during weekdays does show the issue though.
400 - .08, .28, .48
420 - .10, .30, .50
Most of the morning.
Afternoon spacings appear more reasonable.

[boronia]

The new 400/420 is starting to really annoy me. The 400 runs through the Airport and Mascot 2 or so minutes ahead of the 420 consistently throughout the day. This means that the 400 (predominantly Citaros and VSTMs) get really overcrowded whilst the 420 (1 in 2 are 14.5s) carry fresh air between the Airport and Eastgardens. It is really that hard to run an even 10 minute frequency?

With the 400 starting at the Airport, it is not going to be subject to overcrowding or congestion due to incoming passengers. Running it just ahead of the 420 will reduce delays on the 420 from boarding passengers. If there are problems with the 400 being full between the airport and EG, there should be an emptying 420 just behind to pick up the slack and get pax to EG to connect with a local 400 to BJI.

There should be signage at the airport and other shared stops advising pax they can catch the 420 to EG and change if they need to go further.

[Frosty]

It is really that hard to run an even 10 minute frequency?

Given the unpredictable nature of traffic around the airport terminals and approaches on Marsh and O'Riordan streets? Yes I'd say it is extremely difficult.

Also need to think about 7-8 min frequency of the 400 between Eastgardens & Bondi Jn.

I've seen recently quite often the 420 overtake the 400 along Wentworth Avenue either the 400 is being operated by a slow gas bus or slow driver.

[boronia]

Well, if the 400 is continually stopping to pick up all the passengers, it is not unreasonable that the 420 will catch up and pass it.

[rogf24]

I decided to give the new Bondi 333/380 combination a go but during peak hour recently. I waited for a bus outside the Westfield just before 5 pm so it was like 4 something pm, so just one stop past Bondi Junction station. First one showed up, looked pretty full and people standing at the back part, there definitely was still room to squeeze on but this being Sydney I thought it would skip it and thought I could get on the next bus. Second one showed up, looked pretty full as well, let is pass without being angry even though I had waited for like 6 minutes on a high-frequency corridor during the peak. Third one showed up, busy but there was room around the doors, nice gaps between standees and no people standing at the back and I thought the driver would stop here.... hahaha nope completely misses the stop.

Some people not from Australia were literally f...ing waving their arms at the driver to no avail and they were becoming really restless. Like what the actual hell. The fourth bus, was like the third one but it actually stopped and it filled up and there were a few standing at the front door (classic result of front door boarding but driver allowed it good on him). But I plus like 7 or 8 others had to wait for the next one, the next one was like the first, still had room to squeeze on but it stopped to let people off. Despite a few people getting off the driver told a decent crowd not to board so I decided to jump on via the back door, surprisingly still had a bit of room left, was told immediately by the driver to get off and so I did and gave the driver the middle finger on the way out. It was becoming a literal joke at this point. Overseas tourists, hahaha... waiting in the heat for a bus that keeps on coming but won't let them on even though it was crush loaded. I felt sorry for them for such a bad experience. I was only trying to see it but my impressions was beyond a cluster f... I decided to head to Westfield to relieve some of the pointlessly self-inflicted stress in the air conditioning. Before walking there, saw yet another 333/380 pass...

6 buses, none of the buses were crush loaded and some clearly still had room. At this point, something has to give, this is completely unacceptable. Sydney Buses, you should be ashamed of yourself. At bus number 6 in the heat, I don't give a toss how crowded it is and I would imagine the other passengers would have thought the same. You can shove safety up your asshole at this point. Now, I personally don't blame the bus drivers for this even though I was clearly frustrated at this, just the system is just crap. I guess I won't be trying that anything again soon. Clearly hasn't improved anything.

[rogf24]

Apologies for rant but it was really that bad. I have submitted a complaint as well. I always thought STA did a semi-decent job at operating buses despite some hiccups and a few problems, certainly not the best but it worked but this was just atrocious. And what a way to introduce to welcome tourists to Sydney.

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[tonyp]

There should be signage at the airport and other shared stops advising pax they can catch the 420 to EG and change if they need to go further.

When you've come in on a flight with luggage, changing buses is the last thing you want to do, unless the drivers are as courteous as the Perth ones and put the ramp out for you. The interchange stop also needs to be impediment-free - same standards for rolling suitcases as for wheelchairs basically.

[tonyp]

Apologies for rant but it was really that bad. I have submitted a complaint as well. I always thought STA did a semi-decent job at operating buses despite some hiccups and a few problems, certainly not the best but it worked but this was just atrocious. And what a way to introduce to welcome tourists to Sydney.

I can tell you already that TfNSW's reply will include telling you how dangerous it is to have people boarding through other doors.

I feel sorry for the planners who work hard to deliver such capacity improvements, only to have them undermined by operational staff. Hopefully, if this government is returned, we can look forward to privatisation of this region next.

[moa999]

Or you could do what everyone else does and walk the 100m to the bus terminal where there is likely a queue.

[rogf24]

So this bus stop is not a bus stop!?! That makes a mockery of having a bus stop.

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[tonyp]

So this bus stop is not a bus stop!?! That makes a mockery of having a bus stop.

In STA territory, a bus stop is an observation post from which to observe half-empty buses go past without stopping. I'm sure it's in their definitions somewhere.

[neilrex]

There is quite literally no public transport at all in Melbourne on a Sunday night, Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night or Thursday night.

You can add sunday morning to that list.

There is no public transport running early enough for me to get to the church on time.

[Jurassic_Joke]

There is quite literally no public transport at all in Melbourne on a Sunday night, Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night or Thursday night.

This is actually so true, all the pro-Melburnians that preach "Melbourne has 24 hour public transport we need that too, Sydney (night) transport sucks" always conveniently leave out/mislead with the fact that this only applies for two nights of the week. I mean, trains trams and buses running all night on Friday and Saturday is amazing - but its only those two nights and its still a half hour frequency mostly for individual routes - more or less on par as NightRide.

And you know what? There's no NightRide bus network counterpart there in Melbourne either for the other days of the week, I was shocked.

People flex on NightRide in Sydney so much (last year, the network received a considerable expansion too) and don't realise how good we actually have it in that aspect compared to Melbourne. You get a travel in a professionally maintained bus, that uses the quickest route possible and normal fares/travel rewards/caps etc still apply (just noting in some other jurisdictions, its a separate fare structure where you'd pay about $8 for a single trip irrespective of distance instead, other tickets/fares not valid etc). NightRide adds a sense of (mostly!) tying the network together after hours and don't forget the overnight cover bus routes not in the NightRide network (400N, 333N, 151, 304 etc etc).

So yeah. NightRide is pretty awesome. I'd rather have NightRide 7 nights a week (in addition to a train network that finishes slightly later on Friday and Saturday) than what Melbourne has of two nights of all night transport but any other night, god forbid you miss the last tram/train/bus, then you can forget it and fork out an arm, leg + kidney for an Uber - yeah nah. Sorry.