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STA Observations - July to December 2018

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:27 am

tonyp wrote:I just wonder - on the basis of long Sydney experience - whether a bus is actually full if you can see daylight through the back half of the bus, or whether it's just claimed to be full. The standees in that photo look rather spread out.

Trust me, it was filled, front to rear, including the cave at thre back, you often criticise for not being occupied by standees! That is one props I will grant the students over others.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Linto63 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:39 am

Seems somebody has a problem with university students 'highjacking' what they perceive as 'their' service. It is a public service, there are no restrictions on who can board, so they are within their rights. Like most people, they are probably not transport cranks and merely seeking to get to their destination in the way they see as the most efficient.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby boronia » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:44 am

The solution is to provide more buses, not restrict who can use them.

The problem has existed for years, but STA/TfNSW is obviously not interested.

At least there will be "room for one more" when the trams start running.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Thu Oct 18, 2018 11:53 am

boronia wrote:
At least there will be "room for one more" when the trams start running.

I do hope this will be the light (rail) at the end of the tunnel, but I think it will be the same problem on bogies by bogeys!
We all know the best way to deal with those. Get rid of it with a tissue.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby tonyp » Thu Oct 18, 2018 12:32 pm

boronia wrote:The solution is to provide more buses, not restrict who can use them.

The problem has existed for years, but STA/TfNSW is obviously not interested.

At least there will be "room for one more" when the trams start running.

Not having a driver beside the front door adjudicating on when the vehicle is "full" will probably help a lot too.

Trams can take infinite numbers of people on board. The trick is to have enough doors to ensure, not only that they can board quickly, but that they can actually get off again!

Image

CSELR tram: right
IWLR tram: wrong
Single door Blue Whale: very wrong
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Toyota Corolla: right, but wouldn't go anywhere due to gridlock
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:00 pm

Wow, that whale could eat a Volgren!
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Ray » Thu Oct 18, 2018 1:41 pm

or a whinger on the 393 :lol:
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:06 pm

I take it the smilie is in good jest Ray(mond)! 8)
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Linto63 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:38 pm

tonyp wrote:Trams can take infinite numbers of people on board.
Infinite? In reality 450. https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... light-rail
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby tonyp » Thu Oct 18, 2018 5:31 pm

Linto63 wrote:
tonyp wrote:Trams can take infinite numbers of people on board.
Infinite? In reality 450. https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projec ... light-rail

That depends on the standard of measurement used and which of those standards TfNSW has decided to quote. It might be 4, 6 or 8 ppsm. The point I'm making is that a tram has no restrictions on how many can be loaded on board unlike a bus where ultimately axle load is an issue. A tram can take as many as will fit in. The main issue that puts a damper on it nowadays is backpacks!
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:08 pm

Maybe they should make one end with no seats so that in quieter times people can go to the clearly signposted end with seating, but it can carry more passengers when needed, a which will be a lot.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby boronia » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:10 pm

I see the Sussex family caught a tram to the beach in Melbourne today.

Tomorrow they are going to Bondi Beach, wonder if they will catch a Royal 333?

[I spotted a 3-3/3 artic operating an 893 in and a 372 out from Central around 5 pm today].
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Linto63 » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:12 pm

tonyp wrote:That depends on the standard of measurement used and which of those standards TfNSW has decided to quote. It might be 4, 6 or 8 ppsm. The point I'm making is that a tram has no restrictions on how many can be loaded on board unlike a bus where ultimately axle load is an issue. A tram can take as many as will fit in.
So trams can carry an infinite number of passengers? Of course not, there is a point where there is simply no more room.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby boronia » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:23 pm

You've ever been on a train in Tokyo?

There is a defined capacity but a bit of pushing, squeezing and shoving will usually increase it by at least 1.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby mandonov » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:23 pm

Is hyperbole really worth a debate?
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby tonyp » Thu Oct 18, 2018 6:49 pm

Swift wrote:Maybe they should make one end with no seats so that in quieter times people can go to the clearly signposted end with seating, but it can carry more passengers when needed, a which will be a lot.

That's one of the functions of all those fold-up seats in trams and buses, not only for parking prams and wheelchairs but to increase carrying capacity (via standees) in crush loads.

A typical 30 metre tram carries about 200-220 passengers at 4 ppsm, about 260-270 at 6 ppsm and 300+ at 8 ppsm. TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram is "full" when it isn't), the tram can fill to 8 ppsm, an absolute crush load, beyond which at some "infinite" point people would cease to be able to breathe! So those CSELR sets with the quoted capacity of 450 (2x225) could conceivably carry 600.

Then of course there's the practical matter of doors because crush loads are a bit pointless if nobody can get on or off in a timely manner. So expecting loading at 6 or 8 ppsm is unrealistic if there's only a door e,g. every 10 metres. During public discussion of the announcement some time ago that the metro trains would be carrying passengers at 4 ppsm (again they could carry more if necessary), TfNSW (accidentally?) disclosed the information that the capacity of Sydney's buses and double deck trains was rated at only about 2.5 ppsm. This is a direct reflection of the poor situation with doors and internal circulation and standee distribution on both types of vehicle. Double deck trains are a bit of a basket case for passenger capacity (unless everybody is only riding end to end on an event journey) but buses, as we know, are capable of much better if designed better.

Which brings me back to the point of whether those 393s are really full to their design loads.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby idontknow556 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 8:55 am

Are there any more new Scania K310UBs being ordered? The to be delivered list is empty.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Nugget » Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:35 am

tonyp wrote:That's one of the functions of all those fold-up seats in trams and buses, not only for parking prams and wheelchairs but to increase carrying capacity (via standees) in crush loads.


Theoretically yes but I don't see people who have a seat getting up so that more people can get on. The only way would be what they do in some places which is lock them into the up position during rush hour.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Swift » Fri Oct 19, 2018 11:14 am

No seats. It's cheaper, workable in NSW and the trams will inevitably be full all day, every day from day one.
It will be drowning in it's own popularity, so seats are an indulgence in this setting.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby David10 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:07 pm

tonyp wrote:TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram...
Back on form Tony, more name calling, this time people who are just doing as they are instructed to do are 'jobsworths'.

Last time it was calling bus drivers 'bastards.' viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84327&start=1125 After much chastisation, a hasty retreat was beaten with a declaraton "I hold drivers and other front-line staff in the highest regard..." Clearly that was bulldust.

Here is a tip, get out of your ivory tower and see what really happens on the ground, instead of throwing s*** at others. I don't know which is worse; your downtalking of people who you clearly feel you are superior to, or the apathetic administrators who sit on their hands and do nothing about it.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Qantas94Heavy » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:28 pm

tonyp wrote:A typical 30 metre tram carries about 200-220 passengers at 4 ppsm, about 260-270 at 6 ppsm and 300+ at 8 ppsm. TfNSW quotes conservatively at 4 ppsm but, for example clearing crowds at a special event (if there aren't a lot of people with bulky backpacks or Transport jobsworths on the platform preventing people boarding because the tram is "full" when it isn't), the tram can fill to 8 ppsm, an absolute crush load, beyond which at some "infinite" point people would cease to be able to breathe! So those CSELR sets with the quoted capacity of 450 (2x225) could conceivably carry 600.


Conceivable if this was Beijing, Tokyo or Sao Paulo. Have you ever seen how Sydneysiders behave during severe train disruptions? They don't even try to squeeze on, even if they've been waiting on the platform for an hour. Meanwhile I step around the crowd and squeeze my way in.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby rogf24 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 12:32 pm

David10 wrote:Back on form Tony, more name calling, this time people who are just doing as they are instructed to do are 'jobsworths'.

Last time it was calling bus drivers 'bastards.' viewtopic.php?f=3&t=84327&start=1125 After much chastisation, a hasty retreat was beaten with a declaraton "I hold drivers and other front-line staff in the highest regard..." Clearly that was bulldust.

Here is a tip, get out of your ivory tower and see what really happens on the ground, instead of throwing s*** at others. I don't know which is worse; your downtalking of people who you clearly feel you are superior to, or the apathetic administrators who sit on their hands and do nothing about it.


Whatever the administrators and other elites in the transport system do, it doesn't absolve the drivers and unions from putting the barriers up that prevent efficient running of the buses. In case you missed it, tonyp constantly criticises managers and the government too, in addition to drivers and unions. He's not specifically going after drivers themselves, he's going after everyone in the entire system and that includes the drivers.

Also, he's calling marshalls jobsworths here not drivers. Obviously considering that most of the world can pack buses and trams to the brim using all doors without marshalls, he does have a point here.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby gld59 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:14 pm

rogf24 wrote:Whatever the administrators and other elites in the transport system do

David10 isn't slagging off administrators in the transport system, but the administrators here.
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby rogf24 » Fri Oct 19, 2018 1:55 pm

Ah apologies. I don't think the administrators do a terrible job. They keep things running pretty well keeping in mind that people have different views on how transport systems should run (which includes the drivers).
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Re: STA Observations - July to December 2018

Postby Daniel » Fri Oct 19, 2018 4:28 pm

Sorry, we aren’t here to babysit users and audit invidual posts. We do the best we can with our free time available.
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