STA Observations - July to December 2018

[Daniel]

So to those who complain about VSTMs on the 400, answer this question. Have you put in a complaint to TfNSW and your local member each and every time you see it happen?

[tonyp]

Tony, unfortunately your starting point here is to accept as factual a diatribe which fundamentally boils down to a dislike of the VSTM's. Whilst they aren't exactly my favourite bus and yes, they should be kept well away from the 400, to suggest the route has been "ruined" in an operational sense is pure hyperbole.

My point was about the funding restrictions imposed by Treasury having an impact on the quality of service-provision still stands.

[Fleet Lists]

But do such funding restrictions, which I agree do exist, apply to specific routes or as a whole to a particular region? I suspect the latter.

[Linto63]

Think Gong Shuttle. TfNSW/Treasury (one and the same) light up with panic when a service becomes too successful, because the more people use it, the more it costs, so they try any subtle or unsubtle methods they can to put the lid on it.

This was done to death at the time on the relevant thread, but what TfNSW was seeking to do was bring the Gong Shuttle into line with all other routes in the state, i.e. have its users make a contribution to its costs. While it ultimately didn't happen directly, the net result was that the cost recovery was brought in line with other routes, with the local council and university funding about 25% of the costs. And no TfNSW and Treasury are distinctly different, the former would like to spend more, but is held back by constraints placed by the latter.

Tony, unfortunately your starting point here is to accept as factual a diatribe which fundamentally boils down to a dislike of the VSTM's. Whilst they aren't exactly my favourite bus and yes, they should be kept well away from the 400, to suggest the route has been "ruined" in an operational sense is pure hyperbole.

Exactly, if they were flat floor short wheel base buses from Volgren or a European bodybuilder we would probably be told how wonderful they are and that their reduced capacity was a price worth paying.

My point was about the funding restrictions imposed by Treasury having an impact on the quality of service-provision still stands.

Not doubting there are times of the day where increased services are warranted, but it isn't a bottomless pit. Nice idea as it might be to provide a large increase in services, or only procure high capacity gold plated buses, there is a finite amount of resources. It is something that probably needs some work, but hardly ruined.

But do such funding restrictions, which I agree do exist, apply to specific routes or as a whole to a particular region?

Most likely that each region has a budget, so if it wants to increase spending in one area, it needs to find savings else where. Otherwise it would need to make a submission to treasury to increase its funding.

[Fleet Lists]

But do such funding restrictions, which I agree do exist, apply to specific routes or as a whole to a particular region?

Most likely that each region has a budget, so if it wants to increase spending in one area, it needs to find savings else where. Otherwise it would need to make a submission to treasury to increase its funding.

Exactly the point I wanted to make. Treasury would not be interested in route 400 specifically.

[tonyp]

ADS ON BUS (AND TRAIN!) WINDOWS......

Thanks to tonyp for the glaringly different comparative pix, and thanks to Jurassic Joke for the pathetic TfNSW quote.
Let's use it against them!
Since the opera house roof / horse race fiasco there has been an outpouring of public opposition to advertising in the wrong places. I urge you to forward TfNSW's insulting response to the shadow transport minister, Ms. Jodi McKay, MP (strathfield@parliament.nsw.gov.au) to encourage her to make CLEAR WINDOWS Labor policy in the lead up to the March 2019 election. TfNSW can have its all-over-ads, but NOT ON THE WINDOWS!

Here is another example just in from Prague demonstrating respect for passengers. I'm sure the advertiser would like to spread that message all over the side of the vehicle but has obviously accepted the constraint, not gone off in a huff taking the potential revenue with them and their message still gets out pretty boldly. I'm sure the average advertiser would like to wrap the harbour bridge in AOA but they accept the constraints. If you don't set constraints they will take everything. Set standards > still get advertising anyway > still get the revenue anyway. TfNSW and many other agencies and operators are acting like poor parents dealing with spoiled, entitled children and neglecting their own customer base.

[Swift]

Tony, unfortunately your starting point here is to accept as factual a diatribe which fundamentally boils down to a dislike of the VSTM's. Whilst they aren't exactly my favourite bus and yes, they should be kept well away from the 400, to suggest the route has been "ruined" in an operational sense is pure hyperbole.

Exactly, if they were flat floor short wheel base buses from Volgren or a European bodybuilder we would probably be told how wonderful they are and that their reduced capacity was a price worth paying.

C'mon Linto63, I respect your input normally, but until he actually does such a thing, you can't use that as your counterpoint. That is just being personal. If they were full low floor, don't you think full size buses would be as well then, so the capacity problem would still be the glaring problem.

[tonyp]

if they were flat floor short wheel base buses from Volgren or a European bodybuilder we would probably be told how wonderful they are and that their reduced capacity was a price worth paying.

Once again, I didn't say anything about the buses being used. Regardless in any case, the greatest productivity improvement would come from all-door entry, no matter the type of bus deployed. VSTMs may well be OK at low-demand times or they may not be, I don't know as I don't use the route. And "reduced capacity"? Low-floor buses are more efficient at carrying more passengers, not less.

With the 400, I get a whiff of the same demand-suppression philosophy that has dominated Sydney public transport since the 1950s. That's why I mentioned the Gong Shuttle where another attempt at demand-suppression was made. As it's a niche type of service (fare-free downtown circulator) used in a targeted way in cities around the world and around Australia, the revenue solution that they attempted was the wrong one - but they did eventually find the right one and thus demand will continue to rise until their financial crisis returns. The nexus between Treasury and TfNSW is that they both follow the demand-suppression mantra. The Gong Shuttle - as what would be judged in other parts of Australia/the world as an actual public transport success that grows patronage - will be an ongoing running sore for them as the co-funders will no doubt continue to resist increasing their contributions.

Where this dogma comes unstuck though is the non-infinite limit to which you can transfer public transport users into their private cars before the city grinds to a halt from road congestion. Then the politicians become interested because there's nothing more unattractive for them than a swarm of angry voters finding that it takes them hours to get to work. With the unprecedented population growth from immigration over the last couple of decades, the capacity of the Sydney public transport system (and the roads) has reached bursting point. The solution for the buses is returning the trams that shouldn't have been removed in the first place, but unfortunately TfNSW has fumbled this but hopefully it will get better. For trains, they've worked out the neat and, in hindsight obvious, solution of a high-capacity automated railway system to take up the growth that the existing system is no longer capable of.

I would find it interesting to know what the patronage of route 400 is now, whether (or at what times) it is at capacity and how much additional capacity would be needed to cater for latent demand (if it were not discouraged).

[Fleet Lists]

With the 400, I get a whiff of the same demand-suppression philosophy

A whiff but no specific evidence.

[Linto63]

This is also the first timetable since route 400 was split. It was almost inevitable when splitting Sydney's busiest route that it would take a bit finessing to get the service levels right.

[tonyp]

With the 400, I get a whiff of the same demand-suppression philosophy

A whiff but no specific evidence.

This is why I'm asking those questions. Is there latent or excessive demand for which capacity is not available?

Agree that it's early days to draw hard conclusions from the new route.

[neilrex]

I'd be happy if they could just run all their services without inexplicable 45 minute gaps between buses.

[neilrex]

So I went to see the last day of "sculpture by the sea" on Sunday.

First step was bustitution to Wynyard. Bus arrives, bus marshall announces all stops to Chatswood, then Wynyard. Another bus pulls up right behind. I ask, where is that one going ? She checks list. That's the other one. I'll get on that one, then, I says. She says, get on this one, it has only one extra stop. I ask her if she knows how many cycles of the lights it takes to get to that one extra stop. She admits, she doesn't. It's a one-door bus, of course. One of those buses without gotham arches, and a slightly sloping floor all the way to the back.

Arrive eventually at Bondi Junction station. Signage and wayfinding there is still really, really, pathetic. The most recent re-vamp, a few years ago, is even more pathetic than what they had before. Two huge queues for stand A exit, and stand B. There is a temporary sign pointing to stand B for Bondi Beach services, which seems to be incorrect. I am expecting a long delay, but two long artics arrive simultaneously and the queue all gets absorbed. Even with three doors, it takes a long time to get off at bondi because everyone has to stop to tap off.

Finish viewing scultptures at Tamarama. There is about 100 people waiting at both of the bus stops, on either side of the road, at the back of the park behind the beach. I am trying to figure out how the bus works there now, I know they changed it. There is a temporary sign taped on the pole, which helpfully says the bus comes to the beach side first, then the north end of bronte, then turns around and comes back to the other side of the road 4 minutes later. Useful to know ! There is about 100 people, on either side. I decide to walk to Bronte. As I get to the top of the steps leading down to Bronte Beach, small packed bus zooms by the stop at the top of the steps there. Hahah suckers. At that rate, they'll be waiting 3 hours. Bus from Bronte is only 65% full.

Back to Martin Place on the train. Bus stops in Clarence street are more sensibly signposted than usual. Three all-stops-to-Chatswood buses arrive before any bus going beyond chatswood. Another bus arrives, stops half way between the marked stops. People start asking bus marshall where it is going. Chatswood. He says. He gets asked this about ten times in various formats. Is it going to North Sydney ? Is it going to Pymble ? Is it going to Artarmon ? He just says, Chatswood. Meanwhile, all the orderly queues are broken up and milling around because the bus isn't stopped at the proper spot. How hard is it for this guy to say "This bus is direct to Chatswood, only". Which isn't one of the route options listed on the sign. It's a special. Which is fine if they want to do that, but how hard is it to say so, clearly ? Another small, rat-like marshall gets on the step of the bus, he isn't trying to stop people getting on, he expects they to squeeze around him. After several people ask him "are you getting on, or not", he gets out of the way.

Another bus, which is actually going to Hornsby, soon comes along. Marshall doesn't know if it is the all-stops Chatswood-to-Hornsby, or the one which skips three stations. Bus eventually departs Wynyard. At Chatswood, bus turns right into Brown Street, past the station, then back up Victoria Street towards the main road. There's a new Mrs Shouty at Chatswood but no sign of Mr Pointless. After a few minutes delay, some people get on, and the bus seems to depart towards Roseville. But wait ! Bus then makes dangerous and probably illegal right turn into Help Street, then back up Brown Street, and then back into Victoria Road pointing towards the station. This takes about 10 minutes. More people get on. The stupid bus has gone to the wrong side of the road, and apparently someone decides that the intending passengers are such snowflakes that they are incapable of crossing the road to get onto it. It's like Tamarama come to Chatswood, as bus visits both sides of the street.

This bus has pale blue gotham arches which I don't think I have seen before, and also only one door. As there are about 30 people standing, this creates long delays for people to get off at Roseville and Lindfield.

I would have thought that about 40% of Sydney's buses are not even used on Sunday. Why do they use so many one-door buses for this kind of work ?

[tonyp]

You should assemble your engrossing Travellers Tales into a book neilrex!

[Jurassic_Joke]

If the 400 has mostly been given to Waverley, what choice do they have? Their fleet comprises gassies (if I understand correctly, used less at night because they need more frequent refuelling than diesels), artics (mostly intended for 333, and prohibited from 400 in any case unless route adjusted at Eastgardens), VSTMs, and a whole *7* standard diesels.

Then why give so much responsibility of 400 to Waverley, while 357 cruises by getting all the nice normal sized buses from Randwick? I know why VSTMs get given the buck for the 400 as soon as service pipes down a bit after the arvo peak, and thats because truncated 400 is still longer than most Waverley routes and they want to save $$$$$$$$$$$ using a small diesel bus instead of a gas bus. Gee, how'd they tolerate running all those gas buses before VSTM was a thing?

During the daytime its tolerable, at nighttime, absolutely not. The VSTM is a stain on Sydney Buses for every non small-backstreet route it operates on....which speaking of which, do they spend more time operating outside of the niche routes they were purchased for?? Because it sure feels like it these days.

I'm with Tony here, its just another circle jerk of Transport against NSW trying to slowly pick things apart (400) that are successful. Because the quality of service on 400 outside of peaks was heaps, heaps better before September.

[boronia]

My regular driver friend from P advises they will be getting major roster changes from 3rd December.

Doesn't know if other depots are affected at this stage.

[swtt]

My regular driver friend from P advises they will be getting major roster changes from 3rd December.

Doesn't know if other depots are affected at this stage.

Probably another round of TT changes that are coming up as well? Usually they happen on every 3 months on average?

[Stu]

Scania VSTM's are not intentionally scheduled, sometimes towards the end of each peak period it is difficult to allocate a bus when there are more than the usual amount of buses being booked up for defects whilst other buses are running late when running not in service back to the depot. The yard supervisor will have to allocate any other bus that is permitted to operate on a particular route. In this case a Scania cng (high floor) and a VSTM are suitable although attics are not.

The yard supervisor cannot intentionally allocate no bus at all simply because there is no standard sized rigid accessible bus for route 400 for example. Try telling that to management or explaining to TfNSW the reason for cancellation. There are rare occasions when there is physically no buses available at all and trips have been cancelled as a result.

If the issue of VST's being sent out on route 400 happens often enough, then TfNSW need to work with STA to rectify the issues causing this to happen.

[Stu]

My regular driver friend from P advises they will be getting major roster changes from 3rd December.

Doesn't know if other depots are affected at this stage.

Probably another round of TT changes that are coming up as well? Usually they happen on every 3 months on average?

Although not STA anymore - Region 6 will have new timetables for a number of services along with distinctive changes to some services from December 2 and apparently again in January.

[swtt]

Probably another round of TT changes that are coming up as well? Usually they happen on every 3 months on average?

Although not STA anymore - Region 6 will have new timetables for a number of services along with distinctive changes to some services from December 2 and apparently again in January.

Oooh what changes are in the pipeline?

Sent from my Huawei Mate 9 using Tapatalk

[Fleet Lists]

Not here please - keep this for STA.

[Stu]

There is talk of the route 310 being re-numbered to 307 and re-routed to Mascot Station, this would cause timetable changes to other routes which would result in new scheduling and rostering.

[Frosty]

That rumour is true and there are greater overall changes to Green Square network outlined in this thread: http://www.busaustralia.com/forum/viewt ... =3&t=86254

[boronia]

During the daytime its tolerable, at nighttime, absolutely not. The VSTM is a stain on Sydney Buses for every non small-backstreet route it operates on....which speaking of which, do they spend more time operating outside of the niche routes they were purchased for?? Because it sure feels like it these days.

I'm with Tony here, its just another circle jerk of Transport against NSW trying to slowly pick things apart (400) that are successful. Because the quality of service on 400 outside of peaks was heaps, heaps better before September.

Part of the problem is they seem to have way too many VSTMs than they need to operate those niche routes, so they can't all be held captive.

[Stu]

^ Correct. These buses were commissioned 4-6 months before the CSELR bus network changes, prior to these changes routes 326 & 327 went to and from the city, since the bus network changes services only operate as far as Edgecliff so that is one operational reason as to where the surplus comes from.

The other operational reason that creates surplus of Scania midi buses comes from route 328, although it was a new route created to replace the 327 service around Darling Pt, the route is only short plus during the peak periods the route becomes even shorter as the 328 only operate between BJI & Edgecliff.