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Bondi Beach bus patronage

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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:21 pm

I don't know what's ambiguous about my population figures. The last decade of the trams was 1950-1960, at which time the total LGA population was about 21,000. It was about 14,000 in the 1930s. Steady increase until about the 1980s then it took off like a rocket.

Edit: Of course on top of those figures is huge visitation to Bondi Beach, particularly in summer. Before the evolution of car ownership, the trams carried the majority of people, the buses a diminishing percentage. Waverley has also been marked by a lot of single residents and is notable for early (pre-war) development of apartment living.
Last edited by tonyp on Mon Jan 01, 2018 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Mon Jan 01, 2018 4:37 pm

boronia wrote:
burrumbus wrote:G'day Linto.I'm pretty sure the 4 routes for the short wheel base Bustechs are 327/328/360/361.If those buses were permanently allocated to those routes there would not be an issue.The rostering system flicks drivers and buses constantly between different routes-which is why they constantly appear on routes which are too busy for their capacity.They really need permanent shifts just on those 4 routes.Not hard to do.

I don't know how the rostering is arranged for these runs, but it would have to be fairly "self contained" to ensure larger buses don't sneak in.

I see the problem being that there may be too many of these short buses, but STA can't afford to keep them locked in "just in case". Once all the available standard buses are used up, they grab the unused short ones. Are these short buses appearing on the same long bus runs/shifts every day or is it random?

I'm not completely sure how the rostering is done for those routes either,Boronia.Probably need to observe the rostering patterns to work that out.
Anyway I did a little exercise on the 5 routes involved.I used 8am and 5'30pm as the pointpoints -as the busiest times on those timetables to work out the PVR for those routes.
327-3 buses.
-328-i bus.
355-5 buses.
360-6 buses.
361-3 buses.
Thats a PVR of 18 buses for those 5 routes using the Scania /Bustech VSTM fleet.
Waverley depot have ,off fleet lists, an allocation of 27 of these.You are correct Boronia .They just have too many of them at Waverley.Probably 20 of them would be sufficient to cover for maintainence/breakdowns/cleaning.
I still suspect that the rostering still flicks them around between routes too much.
Interesting.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Frosty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:32 pm

There’s one more VSTM used during the morning period I know of the route 750e school bus.

Waverley depot has a bit of space but I heard Randwick depot is full. Though I expect rosters & timetables to change with SELR opening.

I must wonder what is the percentage that visit Bondi Beach using PT ? But with car usage to Bondi Beach there wouldn’t of been much growth in the last decade or so parking capacity hasn’t increased & surely parking costs have increased, high levels of congestion.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:02 pm

The percentage using PT would have to be amongst the highest suburban areas in Sydney.Chatswood would rank up there too.The Thedbo paper gave a growth rate of 4.5% on the Circ Quay-North Bondi corridor ,but those figures are 10 years old.Hard to say though.
Question for you Frosty.From your observations would the VSTM's work those routes listed above all day ,or do they chop in and out with standard rigids ?? Cheers.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Frosty » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:34 pm

From my observations the VSTMs are pretty much all over the place at times on the 400 out to Burwood, doing local routes out of BJI such as 313 & time to time on the western side of Southern Cross Drive on the 343 & 310 during peak hour. The 360 is interesting though all sorts of W & R maybe P depot buses.

Thinking of it even during very busy periods non Mon-Fri never see Scania gas high floor used on route services.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Mon Jan 01, 2018 9:48 pm

Thanks Frosty.I suspected that would be the case.Makes you wonder the rostering arrangements.No wonder they can't get the capacity problems sorted with that sort of random rostering.I thought R and W shared the 360.Obviously P bobs up and works some trips too.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Linto63 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:42 am

burrumbus wrote:Anyway I did a little exercise on the 5 routes involved.I used 8am and 5'30pm as the pointpoints -as the busiest times on those timetables to work out the PVR for those routes.
327-3 buses.
-328-i bus.
355-5 buses.
360-6 buses.
361-3 buses.
Thats a PVR of 18 buses for those 5 routes using the Scania /Bustech VSTM fleet.
Waverley depot have ,off fleet lists, an allocation of 27 of these.You are correct Boronia .They just have too many of them at Waverley.Probably 20 of them would be sufficient to cover for maintainence/breakdowns/cleaning.
I still suspect that the rostering still flicks them around between routes too much.
Interesting.
Is route 326 Edgecliff - Bondi Junction via Bellevue Hill also a swb only route?
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:42 am

Not sure on that one Linto.From Frosty's observations the buses are all over the place.Hopefully Frosty can answer your question.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby hornetfig » Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:51 pm

tonyp wrote:I don't know what's ambiguous about my population figures. The last decade of the trams was 1950-1960, at which time the total LGA population was about 21,000. It was about 14,000 in the 1930s. Steady increase until about the 1980s then it took off like a rocket.


What's your source for this? The suburbs of Bondi, Bondi Beach and North Bondi alone would have had close to 14,000 population by the mid 1930s. The entire LGA was developed, with only some exceptions mostly in Dover Heights by this time. You're suggesting a multi-hundred percentage population increase on the back of redeveloping maybe 10% of the housing stock, post-War, into mostly walk-up flats?!
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:25 pm

hornetfig wrote:
What's your source for this? The suburbs of Bondi, Bondi Beach and North Bondi alone would have had close to 14,000 population by the mid 1930s. The entire LGA was developed, with only some exceptions mostly in Dover Heights by this time. You're suggesting a multi-hundred percentage population increase on the back of redeveloping maybe 10% of the housing stock, post-War, into mostly walk-up flats?!

Good question. According to census figures, the population of Waverley LGA in the 1930s was around the mid 50,000s, from the 1950s to the 1970s around the mid 60,000s, so with new development since then it's gone up past 70,000 with a predicted rise to 80. So the buses are serving a little more population than the trams, with the proviso that I don't know what volumes of recreational traffic is served over the years.

Darned if I can see where my earlier figures came from sorry!
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby aussieboy » Tue Jan 02, 2018 6:35 pm

Linto63 wrote:With the 333, 380, 381, 382, 389 and at busy times X81, there are oodles of buses between BJ and the beach. Sure it gets busy at times, notably summer Sundays, but the supply more or less matches the demand. Don't particularly see the need to try and match the patronage levels achieved by a tram line that closed nearly 60 years ago when the demographics were very different.


Sorry, but this comment shows a real lack of understanding of the current problems.

The Bondi Beach corridor is a disaster and a huge embarrassment for Sydney. Just this morning, there was a queue of about 100 people at Bondi Junction Interchange - and 333s were just driving past, already full from the city.

There are so many things that could and should be done immediately, including:
*Proper queuing infrastructure at Bondi Junction, South Bondi, Bondi Beach and North Bondi so it's not a free-for-all
*Rationalisation of stops at Bondi Beach to North/Beach/South
*Proper information screens at these stops to let people know of the next bus, and a council-run volunteer program to welcome tourists
*Reconfiguration of Bondi Junction so people don't need to cross in front of buses - build escalators directly from the mall to the railway concourse, and a tunnel from the concourse into Level 1 Westfield
*A separated local service to service Bondi Rd, as currently it's just not possible to get on a bus a lot of the time. E.g. start the 381 at South Bondi, or have dynamic destination boards on the 381, i.e. "Tamarama" (eastbound)/"Bondi Rd" (westbound) - these would then update to "BJ/North Bondi" when the bus was en-route. This would stop tourists boarding.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:34 pm

Thanks aussieboy for your observations.The basic gist of your observations is simply the lack of capacity,the lack of headway management, and the way the services are organized(or not very well).I'm not sure the tourists would distinguish between
the 5 different variations of service(route numbers).They just want a bus to/from Bondi Beach.I'd agree about the queuing infrastructure and proper info screens.But that won't fix the basic problems there.
The problem with short workings along Bondi Road is the local patronage from the Beach to Denham/Fletcher Streets.That needs to be catered for.
Thanks for the post.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:37 pm

Linto63 wrote:
burrumbus wrote:Anyway I did a little exercise on the 5 routes involved.I used 8am and 5'30pm as the pointpoints -as the busiest times on those timetables to work out the PVR for those routes.
327-3 buses.
-328-i bus.
355-5 buses.
360-6 buses.
361-3 buses.
Thats a PVR of 18 buses for those 5 routes using the Scania /Bustech VSTM fleet.
Waverley depot have ,off fleet lists, an allocation of 27 of these.You are correct Boronia .They just have too many of them at Waverley.Probably 20 of them would be sufficient to cover for maintainence/breakdowns/cleaning.
I still suspect that the rostering still flicks them around between routes too much.
Interesting.
Is route 326 Edgecliff - Bondi Junction via Bellevue Hill also a swb only route?

Thanks Linto.The 326 uses 3 buses at the peak.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Stu » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:48 pm

Linto63 wrote:There are some 90 degree turns through local streets that a bendy would struggle to negotiate.


Wherever a standard size bus can go, so can an artic bus.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby boronia » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:48 pm

burrumbus wrote:
burrumbus wrote:Anyway I did a little exercise on the 5 routes involved.I used 8am and 5'30pm as the pointpoints -as the busiest times on those timetables to work out the PVR for those routes.
327-3 buses.
-328-i bus.
355-5 buses.
360-6 buses.
361-3 buses.
Thats a PVR of 18 buses for those 5 routes using the Scania /Bustech VSTM fleet.
Waverley depot have ,off fleet lists, an allocation of 27 of these.You are correct Boronia .They just have too many of them at Waverley.Probably 20 of them would be sufficient to cover for maintainence/breakdowns/cleaning.
I still suspect that the rostering still flicks them around between routes too much.
Interesting.

Thanks Linto.The 326 uses 3 buses at the peak.

So that's 21 buses for peaks, say 2 spares; that leaves 4 for them to use as required. Presumably the o/p requirement would be less, so those "laying over" could be rostered into other routes in between?
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Tue Jan 02, 2018 7:58 pm

Yes that seems correct on paper,Boronia.But it seems to be different on the road with poor rostering choices,from other board members observations !!! How do you see that from your spots down Kingsford way ?? Might need a trip out to BJI to check this out !!!.See whether I can sneak it in this school holidays.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby boronia » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:32 pm

Unfortunately, I am not in that area regularly enough to make informed observations. I have seen the occasional M on the 400 and other routes, but I'm not in the habit of checking every Bustech that goes past. If I can, I'll make notes of what I do see, and can pass on to you.

Hanging around BJI for a few days might shed some light on it, if you have the time to do it. Comparing patterns over a few days would show up whether they are rostered or random.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:54 pm

Thanks Boronia.I'll have to see whether I can fit it in this holidays.Be an interesting little exercise to check this out.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby In Transit » Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:58 pm

burrumbus wrote:The problem with short workings along Bondi Road is the local patronage from the Beach to Denham/Fletcher Streets.That needs to be catered for.
Thanks for the post.


Patronage for journeys purely between the beach and Denham/Fletcher is minuscule, and no more than if the bus deviated down any side street.

The only reason the 381 goes that way is that the tram used to (with a short off road section where it crossed back underneath Bondi Rd), avoiding the steepest part of the Bondi Rd hill. Other than the political difficulty in removing something that already exists, there is no justification for its retention whatsoever.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby burrumbus » Tue Jan 02, 2018 9:14 pm

Thanks Intransit.Would you therefore agree that you could use the 381 as a stopper service from South Bondi-BJI as aussieboy suggested ??? Getting the headways right between the services would seem to be a key in fixing this up.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Tue Jan 02, 2018 10:16 pm

aussieboy wrote:
Sorry, but this comment shows a real lack of understanding of the current problems.

The Bondi Beach corridor is a disaster and a huge embarrassment for Sydney. Just this morning, there was a queue of about 100 people at Bondi Junction Interchange - and 333s were just driving past, already full from the city.

There are so many things that could and should be done immediately, including:
*Proper queuing infrastructure at Bondi Junction, South Bondi, Bondi Beach and North Bondi so it's not a free-for-all.

The passengers being bypassed by full buses sounds like the North Sydney services in the weeks after the trams were replaced by buses. What happens when you downscale capacity, obviously.

You shouldn't need queuing infrastructure; you need all-door loading with passengers spread out along the stops like at a tram stop or railway station ready to board by the nearest door. This not only gets them on quickly, it also ensures that the bus is fully loaded. How many buses in Sydney for the past 50 years run past stops because they're "full" when they aren't full and those waiting at the stop see with frustration tons of daylight through the bus except for the solid mass congealed down the front. It's not rocket science.

To make it worse, BJ interchange hasn't been designed for access to all-door loading and it has a building with its permanently-embedded structural pillars that can't be moved (cf. the design of Perth Busport).
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby aussieboy » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:02 pm

tonyp wrote:You shouldn't need queuing infrastructure; you need all-door loading with passengers spread out along the stops like at a tram stop or railway station ready to board by the nearest door. This not only gets them on quickly, it also ensures that the bus is fully loaded. How many buses in Sydney for the past 50 years run past stops because they're "full" when they aren't full and those waiting at the stop see with frustration tons of daylight through the bus except for the solid mass congealed down the front. It's not rocket science.


The Bondi services are most definitely full. The issue is a train of ~500-1k tourists arrive, then you need 10+ buses to clear the crowd. There will never be enough on-demand capacity to cater for this; structured queues are the only answer. With headways of 2mins, the queue could be cleared within 10mins.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby tonyp » Wed Jan 03, 2018 8:18 am

aussieboy wrote:
The Bondi services are most definitely full. The issue is a train of ~500-1k tourists arrive, then you need 10+ buses to clear the crowd. There will never be enough on-demand capacity to cater for this; structured queues are the only answer. With headways of 2mins, the queue could be cleared within 10mins.

But you're not going to load the buses fully or quickly if you just take them in through the front door. With such crowds, the next bus in the two-minute headway is likely to be there before you finish loading the first.



I'm wondering if they should now be reviewing the case for rail to Bondi Beach.
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby Tonymercury » Wed Jan 03, 2018 10:51 am

tonyp wrote:
I'm wondering if they should now be reviewing the case for rail to Bondi Beach.



Presumably the residents of Newport would all drive down to join the demos at Bondi Beach - hopefully, not finding anywhere to park!
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Re: Bondi Beach bus patronage

Postby aussieboy » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:22 pm

tonyp wrote:I'm wondering if they should now be reviewing the case for rail to Bondi Beach.


Absolutely. The new council has come out against light rail, with no consultation of residents. The previous Liberal council was in favour and did a lot of work on feasibility etc.

IMO the best place to put it would be down the laneways that run parallel to Bondi Rd (Waverley St - Dalley St - Ocean Lane - Avoca St
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