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Artics on Route 400

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby burrumbus » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:00 pm

boronia wrote:
mandonov wrote:A new interchange on Westfield Drive would serve both trip generators equally. Just have to convince Westfield to dump Target and create a new entrance.

I wouldn't be surprised if Myer vacated first.

Myer as a company is in real trouble,Boronia.It's old department store business model is taking a real hammering from the online retailers and others.I think store closures in many areas aren't far away.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby boronia » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:09 pm

There have been hints of closings and down-sizings floating around for a while. Solomon Lew is getting a bit worried about his 10+% share holdings. I don't know about competition, but if you do go in to a store to buy something, it has hard to find someone to serve you.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby burrumbus » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:22 pm

Yes,we have a Myer in Albury here,and the customer service is poor.Not helping their cause at all.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby boronia » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:11 am

mandonov wrote:It's not really the right thread, but I've had a thought about the 400 Eastgardens terminators. Current indications (from the EIS) are that once CSELR is operational the 391 and 392 will be terminating at Todman Ave. Why not instead of terminating them in Kensington, we combine them with 400 short workings and terminate them at BJI.

This would make the 400 more consistent, reduce routes terminating in busy Kensington streets, provide a quicker trip between Eastgardens and Bondi Jct, and create a new cross town route.

Just an idea

The 391 and 392 do not operate through Maroubra Junction, which is a major stop for the 400s. But they could provide a bit of extra capacity between running as an all stop service to BJI
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby casualdriver » Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:15 am

not so much to do with route 400 but when buses replace airport line trains its unbelievable when you see passengers for airport with bags getting on normal buses.On one trip to the airport most people put their bags on the seat and stood up as there was nowhere to put bags without blocking people and the bus was pretty chockabloc
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby tonyp » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:16 am

burrumbus wrote:The route clearly needs high capacity artics on all trips.You also need luggage room,probably in the front and the trailer to make things easier for the airport pax and for shoppers.That would be ideal with all door loading and unloading,although reducing capacity a bit,but stowage for luggage is a key to improve dwell times,especially with all door load/unload and the pax amenity on heavily used trips.I'd suggest STA look at the luggage stowage areas Skybus use in Melbourne.Well designed and heaps of area.

This is spot-on. I'm not familiar with current Skybus design (but I know they've introduced low floor Scania N series which I'd love to see in operation), but I do know the Sydney Carbridge operation very well, but it's obviously exclusively airport traffic unlike 400 which would only have a percentage of plane travellers.

The Carbridge electric buses suffer greatly from having a high floor at the back which means that most users and their bags are jammed into the front 8 metres or so of the bus because it's difficult to climb up the back and, in spite of 3 doors (it would be totally non-functional with less), in a big crowd it's just terrible. An artic would spread out the crowd much better and, as you say, a luggage rack in the trailer would break up the terrible concentration of bags down the front which the Carbridge buses suffer from. I can tell you from bitter experience you can't leave your bags in the racks down the front and move down the back because you can't get back to your bags through the dense crowd when you want to get off - and you can't take your bags down the back because you block up the bus and you certainly can't get them up the stairs. These buses also ideally need a low floor back door behind the rear axle but as we know this isn't going to happen any time soon.

So to cut a long story short, 400 should have low floor (N series or equivalent) artics with a luggage rack down the front and one in the trailer. The racks will need to be on the floor with a shelf above, not just on top of the wheel arch, because you can't lift a 20 kg suitcase onto a wheel arch, believe me!!! :shock:

Oh - and all-door entry (without marshalls).
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby burrumbus » Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:03 pm

Agreed totally Tony.The luggage racks need to be sited close to the doors in the front of the bus and the trailer for max effect.Next time you go to Melbourne check it out.Skybus run a real good show.The Skybus racks extend up quite high,allowing the heavier cases to be low and the lighter bags up higher.Nothing left on the floor to clog things up.
And you don't need marshalls.If you have it set up right thats just not necessary.Alas another case of the route bus industry's(and TFNSW) obsession with one design fits all for all routes.Each route needs to have design features appropriate to that route.Clearly the 400 needs buses appropriate for that route.With STA's rostering systems those buses would be spread over everything else.The whole system needs to be reworked to get the best customer outcomes.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby boronia » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:02 pm

Skybus is point to point, so you don't get issues with people needing to get off mid route. With double deckers now, I wonder if there have been any security issues, with someone making off with the wrong bag?

And they do have marshalls of sorts. Every time I've ridden on them there has been a supervisor/despatcher kerbside for each departure.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby burrumbus » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:26 pm

Yes ,Skybus do have customer service at each loading point.It works really well on a premium fare service.
I just don't think you need it on what is really an intensive route service,that goes through the airport.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby Swift » Sun Oct 08, 2017 2:48 pm

Being a limited stops service makes it an ideal candidate to trial unsupervised all door boarding throughout a run.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby Frosty » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:29 pm

What also needs to be considered is bus stop extensions to accomodate 18m Buses & reduce delays. A lot of delays of dwell times comes to buses waiting to enter the bus stop some trouble spots I’ve seen is Westfield Eastgardens & the stops outside Westfield Bondi Jn. Some bus stops are too short considering some of them serve at least 3+ routes.

The 400 rosters could still be shared with certain metrobus rosters. If I’m not mistaken only some of the K 400 rosters operated by the 14.5m buses are exclusive rosters.

From my experience on the GC Airport 777 bus that uses double deckers it usually at most had 12 customers. Though they did have some regular Bustech’s fitted with luggage racks removed about 6 seats.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby Swift » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:57 pm

Frosty wrote:
The 400 rosters could still be shared with certain metrobus rosters. If I’m not mistaken only some of the K 400 rosters operated by the 14.5m buses are exclusive rosters.

With the inconsistent use of the special red Metrobus livery these days (as I expected would eventuate years ago :roll: :roll: :roll: ) it wouldn't really matter if the odd red bus appeared on the 400 anyway.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby burrumbus » Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:04 pm

Frosty wrote:What also needs to be considered is bus stop extensions to accomodate 18m Buses & reduce delays. A lot of delays of dwell times comes to buses waiting to enter the bus stop some trouble spots I’ve seen is Westfield Eastgardens & the stops outside Westfield Bondi Jn. Some bus stops are too short considering some of them serve at least 3+ routes.

The 400 rosters could still be shared with certain metrobus rosters. If I’m not mistaken only some of the K 400 rosters operated by the 14.5m buses are exclusive rosters.

From my experience on the GC Airport 777 bus that uses double deckers it usually at most had 12 customers. Though they did have some regular Bustech’s fitted with luggage racks removed about 6 seats.

From what I can figure the Adelaide airport double decker carries less than that.A waste of resources which should be used on a busy service.
I think if you are going to spec up buses for use on a paticular route it should operate on that route only.Passengers need consistency in this case.Luggage racks/artic capacity/proper low floor.One of the problems with STA's style of rostering.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby iamthouth » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:39 pm

swtt wrote:Maybe Hillsbus should swap a heap of their low floor 14.5s over to the STA in exchange for a stash of extra DDs. 607X/M61 on their own should be all DD. Save a few 14.5s for M60.


M60 doesn't get 14.5s due to Pennant Hills Interchange u-turn, which would make it a three point turn.
DD's are ok now for 607X/M61, but consider the Metro impacts long term.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby Swift » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:44 pm

iamthouth wrote:DD's are ok now for 607X/M61, but consider the Metro impacts long term.

You bring up a good aspect regarding the metro. This will reduce the need for CDC's larger capacity fleet like the 14.5s and DDs. TNSW, if they have any imagination, have an opportunity to deploy them to runs where they can be used, and look no further than intensive STA runs.
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Re: Northern Beaches BRT: B-Line to transform Northern Beach

Postby swtt » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:19 am

Swift wrote:
iamthouth wrote:DD's are ok now for 607X/M61, but consider the Metro impacts long term.

You bring up a good aspect regarding the metro. This will reduce the need for CDC's larger capacity fleet like the 14.5s and DDs. TNSW, if they have any imagination, have an opportunity to deploy them to runs where they can be used, and look no further than intensive STA runs.


Only when metro goes to the city.

Otherwise 607X will still be a very heavily patronised service south of where the metro swings into Bella Vista. As will M61 at Baulkham Hills.
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Re: Artics on Route 400

Postby Stu » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:22 pm

With regards to dwell times, the route 400 has two minutes of dwell time built into the timetable at both the Domestic Terminal and the International Terminal for all trips in both directions.
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