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[LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby jpp42 » Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:40 pm

Just for completeness sake it should be mentioned there is a turnback at John St Square also. This is used for the overnight services to the casino.

However there is quite a lot of patronage to the Fish Markets during the day so I would agree that short turning at Wentworth Park would make the most sense, even if it does require a signaling upgrade.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby tonyp » Sun Aug 27, 2017 7:19 am

jpp42 wrote:Just for completeness sake it should be mentioned there is a turnback at John St Square also. This is used for the overnight services to the casino.

However there is quite a lot of patronage to the Fish Markets during the day so I would agree that short turning at Wentworth Park would make the most sense, even if it does require a signaling upgrade.

Except for Lilyfield which has a separate siding, none of these turnbacks are actually very satisfactory as they're merely crossovers, which means that the whole service on the line can be delayed while a tram reverses. Lilyfield is the only practicable turnback on the line. The others are basically for emergency workings.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby boronia » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:25 am

Why trams on Sydney's booming inner west light rail aren't running more often
Matt O'Sullivan

Published: August 27 2017 - 11:45PM

Commuters wondering why trams aren't running more frequently on Sydney's inner west light rail line during peak hours despite a boom in passengers can now blame "capacity constraints".

Internal government documents obtained by Fairfax Media show constraints such as "power supply, stabling facilities, single track near Dulwich Hill and fleet size" are limiting a significant increase in services on the line from Central Station to Dulwich Hill during the morning peak, when overcrowding is at its worst.

Of an extra 95 weekly services announced last week by the state government, fewer than a third will run during the morning peak hours of 7am to 10am. The rest will operate during the "inter-peak" period of 10am to 3pm, and at weekends.

Patronage growth on the line from Central Station to Dulwich Hill has been "exceeding all expectations" of transport planners.

And it is set to accelerate over the next few years as thousands of new residents move into high-density apartment complexes along the light-rail corridor.

A "sensitive" briefing document for Transport Minster Andrew Constance last year warned significant development along the line would "continue to influence patronage growth and crowding levels at commuter and leisure peak times acoss the week".

About 2300 new dwellings have been built or are under construction at Harold Park, Lewisham, Summer Hill and Dulwich Hill, while a further 2400 are set to be erected at the Darling Square precinct near Paddy's Market in Haymarket.

The documents obtained under freedom-of-information laws show greater frequency of trams is limited by the fact that the fleet of 12 light rail vehicles means the maximum is one service every eight minutes during peak hours.

They reveal Transport for NSW has been considering buying more light rail vehicles for well over a year but note the long lead time of 21 months between ordering them from a manufacturer and pressing them into service on the inner west line.

"After the first vehicle, further vehicles can be delivered in groups or separately, but will typically be delivered one or two at a time, in monthly cycles," the documents say.

The eight-minute frequency of services also cannot be reduced unless an additional section of track is laid near Dulwich Hill. However, the documents say "this would not be a constraint" if shuttle services ran between Central Station and Lilyfield.

They also outlined Transport for NSW's plans for a "capacity study" and a "scoping exercise" late last year, which was to be followed by "a strategic business case ... outlining the options including procurement of additional capacity".

"The capacity study will also review the infrastructure constraints including but not limited to Dulwich Hill configuration, infrastructure, stabling capacity, power, signalling, maintenance facilities and associated costs," they say.

"[It] will identify the operations and maintenance which is currently unfunded."

Transport for NSW has refused to release more recent documents under freedom-of-information laws, which would give a better insight into its longer term plans to cope with the surge in demand.

They include a "strategic business case demand analysis" in April, and a draft "patronage modelling and capacity improvement study-cost estimate report" a month later.

A spokeswoman for Transport for NSW said it was "investigating a range of short and long-term improvements" to allow the introduction of new services on the line.

"In order to meet longer term customer demand and support land-use growth, we will need to invest in more vehicles and supporting infrastructure such as signalling and depot facilities," she said.

The line carried about 4 million passengers a year before a 5.6-kilometre extension to Dulwich Hill was opened in early 2014. In contrast, the latest government data shows almost 10 million trips were made on the line in the past 12 months.

This story was found at: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/why-trams-on- ... xyf4o.html
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby tonyp » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:00 pm

First, the patronage growth didn't exceed the expectations of those transport planners and others who actually had a clue what to expect (that is everybody except TfNSW and its consultants). Trams are almost always very popular with the public and there is almost always a major patronage boost when they're re-introduced. The predictable scenario during the lobbying/planning phase of tramways is that there's great official scepticism, if not fierce opposition (supplemented by the aggressive solicitations of the bus lobby) and if the project still manages to go ahead, it's implemented with the most grudging compromise and minimalism so that when it goes into operation it gets overwhelmed by demand due to being underdesigned. The sceptics and opponents can then say "we told you it wouldn't work". IWLR now moves more people than any single Sydney bus route, yet it only serves a relative backwater, not a major corridor.

Second, there are well-established methods for designing and operating a high-capacity tramway, most of which were also previously practised right here in Sydney but have now been dismissed as irrelevant or outdated (even though they're still best-practice in Europe). So everybody set about re-inventing the wheel, the dead hand of the Sydney Trains style being glaringly evident throughout, even down to the lethargic operation. Indeed, the previous tramways administration left a high-capacity terminus at Central for IWLR to inherit, only for the current mob of geniuses to completely shaft the capacity at the Dulwich Hill end. It's a pity people can't be sacked for these major mistakes nowadays, but it seems that promotion, or another lucrative consultancy contract, is favoured instead. There are also tram manufacturers who can deliver trams in far less than 21 months.

IWLR would have no problem catering for high density development along the line (that's quite common in Europe) if it was designed and operated properly. The original proponents of this project would now be saying to TfNSW "we told you so". I know that it's very depressing for many of them to see the project come to fruition and then be immediately undermined by TfNSW bumbling. Personally, having worked in the NSW Public Service, it doesn't surprise me at all. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory is their house style. I've long since shelved the high ideals I brought back from Europe, but at least Queensland DoT (like PTA WA, the polar opposite of TfNSW) has done a pretty good job on Gold Coast to use as a local exemplar.

Edit: This should be read in conjunction with the news item:

http://www.smh.com.au/cqstatic/gy49ao/I ... ilGIPA.pdf
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby burrumbus » Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:49 pm

I think another factor in the patronage growth on this line,and as tony says,on a backwater corrido,r is the relative reliabilty of the tram,despite its funereal pace, and the unreliabilty of the bus routes in its area.People do walk with their feet to a better service.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby Liamena » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:05 am

I was in that area for a while when the tram was half finished, and almost never used it.

It avoids all of the major local trip generators like Sydney University or UTS or Leichhardt shops or Broadway Shopping centre and Glebe Point Road. Avoids them completely, they all have buses.

And in those days, all of the buses would take you to anywhere you wanted to go along the entire 3 km length of George Street. The tram only went to Central, and then you had to walk a long way and pay another fare for a bus or a train.

Is there going to be a convenient interchange location for commuting workers from the existing tram to change to the George Street tram ?

Edit: had a go with trip planner again, checking out how to get from the north end of Norton Street, to various places in the cbd. Nearly all of the suggestions involved using buses going to Bronte, Coogee or Maroubra ! Crikey, a lot has changed since I was there. It was quite difficult to generate a trip which involved using the tram! The best it could come up with, was catching the tram to Pyrmont and then walking 17 minutes to the destination.
Last edited by Liamena on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby molybtek » Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:13 am

I thought the boom started when they lowered the price and integrated the ticketing system.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby boronia » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:35 am

Liamena wrote:Edit: had a go with trip planner again, checking out how to get from the north end of Norton Street, to various places in the cbd. Nearly all of the suggestions involved using buses going to Bronte, Coogee or Maroubra ! Crikey, a lot has changed since I was there. It was quite difficult to generate a trip which involved using the tram! The best it could come up with, was catching the tram to Pyrmont and then walking 17 minutes to the destination.


Trip planner will usually calculate the (theoretically) fastest trip between two points. Sometimes it will come up with some ridiculous suggestions.

Did you try deleting "bus" as a mode of travel?
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby boronia » Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:39 am

Liamena wrote:Is there going to be a convenient interchange location for commuting workers from the existing tram to change to the George Street tram ?

You would have to walk from Capitol Square to either Rawson Place or the next stop north along George St.

TfNSW considers this to be "convenient".
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby tonyp » Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:31 pm

Liamena wrote:I was in that area for a while when the tram was half finished, and almost never used it.

It avoids all of the major local trip generators like Sydney University or UTS or Leichhardt shops or Broadway Shopping centre and Glebe Point Road. Avoids them completely, they all have buses.

And in those days, all of the buses would take you to anywhere you wanted to go along the entire 3 km length of George Street. The tram only went to Central, and then you had to walk a long way and pay another fare for a bus or a train.

Is there going to be a convenient interchange location for commuting workers from the existing tram to change to the George Street tram ?

Edit: had a go with trip planner again, checking out how to get from the north end of Norton Street, to various places in the cbd. Nearly all of the suggestions involved using buses going to Bronte, Coogee or Maroubra ! Crikey, a lot has changed since I was there. It was quite difficult to generate a trip which involved using the tram! The best it could come up with, was catching the tram to Pyrmont and then walking 17 minutes to the destination.

In the early days of the journey planner, all the light rail stops were entered in the database but the then private owner of the line wouldn't provide a timetable (because they didn't reliably run to one!). So when you looked up how to get from one LR stop to another it gave you a bus result!

Even though the LR doesn't go near a lot of those trip generators, I get the impression from public feedback I hear that the peak hour buses in particular are so unreliable and caught up in traffic jams that people find it quicker to use the tram, even with walking at the other end of their journey. I think the patronage growth is truly staggering considering the "back fence" nature of the line and must have come at the expense of the buses, as few people would have been driving to the CBD. Sad to say for the bus diehards among you :wink: , people do like the smoothness, space and quietness of trams. The way for the bus industry to challenge this is ultimately with fully low-floor, electric buses, together with strategic use of bus lanes and traffic light priority so that the buses aren't caught in stop-start traffic.

The official interchange point between IWLR and CSELR is at the corner of Hay and George - Capitol Square stop to (I think it's called) Chinatown stop at the same intersection. Half of George St to be crossed by pedestrian crossing, that's the main inconvenience.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby moa999 » Tue Aug 29, 2017 3:56 pm

boronia wrote:
Liamena wrote:Is there going to be a convenient interchange location for commuting workers from the existing tram to change to the George Street tram ?

You would have to walk from Capitol Square to either Rawson Place or the next stop north along George St.

TfNSW considers this to be "convenient".


Capitol Square and Chinatown stops will be about 75m apart, albeit not shown as a connection in the proposed name maps, despite being much closer than Central Chalmers and Central Grand, and more convenient with only slight gradient, and crossing of Campbell St

Whether people coming from the inner west will have room to board at that stop during the morning peak towards the CBD is another matter
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby Glen » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:49 am

tonyp wrote:
jpp42 wrote:Just for completeness sake it should be mentioned there is a turnback at John St Square also. This is used for the overnight services to the casino.

However there is quite a lot of patronage to the Fish Markets during the day so I would agree that short turning at Wentworth Park would make the most sense, even if it does require a signaling upgrade.

Except for Lilyfield which has a separate siding, none of these turnbacks are actually very satisfactory as they're merely crossovers, which means that the whole service on the line can be delayed while a tram reverses.

Yes not ideal, but it's worked in Melbourne on lines a lot busier.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby tonyp » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:16 am

Glen wrote:Yes not ideal, but it's worked in Melbourne on lines a lot busier.

This is what they had to contend with on the old Watsons Bay line when they couldn't fit in turning loops (this is Double Bay):

Image

They were moving 20 million passengers a year along the line.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby Glen » Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:45 pm

tonyp wrote:
Glen wrote:Yes not ideal, but it's worked in Melbourne on lines a lot busier.

This is what they had to contend with on the old Watsons Bay line when they couldn't fit in turning loops (this is Double Bay):

They were moving 20 million passengers a year along the line.

That's OK, I can still remember Bourke St terminus before the 96 was extended to St Kilda! :lol:
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby crimsontide » Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:10 am

boronia wrote:
swtt wrote:Opal data working its magic. Without the central repository of information, it would have been a guestimate of what patronage was like.

Might be pretty obvious to anyone riding on the trams.


That rules out anyone from TfNSW. :lol:
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby tonyp » Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:57 pm

I was told by my mob that went into Darling Harbour today that all the trams were absolutely packed to the gills. They were 15 mins apart in the morning and 10 mins in the afternoon. Maybe that's why TfNSW has rigged up the trip planner to encourage people to walk to Darling Harbour rather than catch the tram! They've really botched it up. They're learning the hard way all the lessons about tram operation that were carefully learnt and built upon over a century everywhere else. Sydney used to have all the knowledge but it was ditched and now they're reinventing the wheel.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby GazzaOak » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:59 am

Yeah, on sunday, its was packed horribly.... due to the event going on at the icc center.... and my mate has a broken ankle, so that didn't help her...

They really need at least 5 mins turnaround (especially when there an event going on at the icc center, at least from central to the star).....
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby Liamena » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:00 pm

Depending on exactly where you are going at Darling Harbour, if you are coming off a train then Town Hall is probably shorter to walk to most places, at least if your train goes there.

Is there any information at the tram stop at Central, when the next tram will come ? I don't recall ever seeing one. If people could tell whether the next tram was coming in 2 minutes or 14 minutes, a lot of them can decide whether to walk or wait.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby tonyp » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:07 pm

GazzaOak wrote:Yeah, on sunday, its was packed horribly.... due to the event going on at the icc center.... and my mate has a broken ankle, so that didn't help her...

They really need at least 5 mins turnaround (especially when there an event going on at the icc center, at least from central to the star).....

Unfortunately I don't think that they're capable of running a 5 minute headway at present (nor do they have the vehicles and infrastructure to do it). But yes, that's what they needed last weekend. All should have been thought of when the operation was planned and the line designed.

Liamena wrote:Depending on exactly where you are going at Darling Harbour, if you are coming off a train then Town Hall is probably shorter to walk to most places, at least if your train goes there.

Is there any information at the tram stop at Central, when the next tram will come ? I don't recall ever seeing one. If people could tell whether the next tram was coming in 2 minutes or 14 minutes, a lot of them can decide whether to walk or wait.

Some are unable to walk.

I don't know if there are next tram indicators on the line. When I contacted TfNSW to suggest them for the Gong Shuttle they didn't even seem aware that there are such things for street public transport. They just said "new technology" would be investigated when and if needed. They're probably still coming to terms with typewriters at Transport HQ.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby mandonov » Wed Oct 04, 2017 12:49 pm

There is next tram indicators for every light rail platform. Whether it's accurate or not is another thing.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby boronia » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:34 pm

They do count down to the next arrival, but sometimes they seem to be very long minutes. And they usually show "due in 1 minute" even as the tram is leaving the stop.

I have suggested that these signs should also be placed at the approach to stations (so people know if they have to rush down stairs or lifts), where the entrances are remote from the platforms. TfNSW advises "this is up to the operator"
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby GazzaOak » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:38 pm

boronia wrote:They do count down to the next arrival, but sometimes they seem to be very long minutes. And they usually show "due in 1 minute" even as the tram is leaving the stop.

I have suggested that these signs should also be placed at the approach to stations (so people know if they have to rush down stairs or lifts), where the entrances are remote from the platforms. TfNSW advises "this is up to the operator"


Its very odd as well.... its not consistent.... you could see another tram in the next 8 min, then another tram come in in 20 mins or whatever
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby matthewg » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:16 am

mandonov wrote:There is next tram indicators for every light rail platform. Whether it's accurate or not is another thing.


'more or less'. They match within a minute or 2 what the tripview app on my phone reports, and it seems to actually represent close to reality.
There is some sort of real-time feed of the tram positions. But the tram needs to have started from the terminus or from central has to reach the reserved track next to the PowerHouse for accurate tracking. I suspect there is a data feed off the train describer system for the 'railway' part of the line.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby tonyp » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:31 am

boronia wrote:
I have suggested that these signs should also be placed at the approach to stations (so people know if they have to rush down stairs or lifts), where the entrances are remote from the platforms. TfNSW advises "this is up to the operator"

Well no, it's up to TfNSW.
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Re: [LR] Extra tram services to help ease crowding

Postby tonyp » Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:35 am

matthewg wrote:
'more or less'. They match within a minute or 2 what the tripview app on my phone reports, and it seems to actually represent close to reality.
There is some sort of real-time feed of the tram positions. But the tram needs to have started from the terminus or from central has to reach the reserved track next to the PowerHouse for accurate tracking. I suspect there is a data feed off the train describer system for the 'railway' part of the line.

Two examples of the use of count-down timers at bus stops that I recall very clearly, in Plzen and in Perth, have been absolutely spot-on and I see them adjust themselves if I can see in the distance that the bus is caught at traffic lights for example. If they can achieve this level of accuracy with bus countdown timers I don't see why they can't achieve it with trams (indeed they do in examples in Europe that I've seen).

Here is a twin countdown timer for two routes in Perth that share a stop (it also has an audio announcement of the time if you press either button):

Image

Here is one in Plzen for a bus stop hosting several routes:

Image
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