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NSW On Demand Buses

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby boronia » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:12 pm

Passenger 57 wrote:
boronia wrote:They are carrying passengers "for hire and reward", so would have to be legally "buses".
By that definition so are taxis
.
Maybe they should be on m/o or TV plates?
The majority(?) of STA buses no longer have MO plates (much to my disappointment). How do parking officers determine whether a bus not carrying STA, MO, or MOO plates is allowed to park in a bus zone?

As that station would be part of their "route" they would be legally entitled to park there and wait.
There is no defined route for many of these trials. Some don't even include stations as hubs.

I don't know how P2P legislation specifically affects these buses, but for normal buses/coaches:
1. Taxis are defined in another part of the legislation. Buses are supposed to have a minimum number of seats; used to be 8 or 9 in NSW
2. ST plates are a special form of m/o plates. Regardless of the plates, to be a bus in NSW, it should be displaying accreditation details. Unaccredited bus vehicles are not permitted to use bus zones. Do these buses carry the same accreditation as other buses?
3. No defined routes, but I think there are defined areas to which they are restricted. That would include hubs, regardless of their form.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Fleet Lists » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:16 pm

Possibly another point:
No defined hours of operation.
Some operate on Sundays while others dont. The Hillsbus ones operate weekdays peak hour only, and so on.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Passenger 57 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:42 pm

Glen wrote:I understand the Hillsbus trial is "fixed route" in the AM peak and "hub to door" in the PM peak.
Epping Station is the only defined hub for that area.

The transportnsw.info web page for that trial is more forthcoming than the operators site.

According to that there are 2 zones which probably correspond to the 2 differently shaded areas of the map on www,cdcourbus,com.au.

transportnsw,info wrote:Services run from Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays) during the following peak times:
  • 5.30am - 9am
  • 5pm - 8pm
The morning service runs along a fixed route and the evening service offers a station-to-door service within the designated service area. The service area is split into 2 zones:
  • Zone 1 includes Carlingford and North Rocks and will connect you with Carlingford train station and M2 Oakes Road bus station
  • Zone 2 includes Carlingford, Beecroft and Epping and will connect you with Epping train station

Carlingford is split into 2 zones rather than being served by 2 zones. The zones do not include all parts of the suburbs named.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Glen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:44 pm

P2P covers passenger transport vehicles with less than 12 seats.

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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Fleet Lists » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:48 pm

Passenger 57 wrote:Carlingford is split into 2 zones rather than being served by 2 zones.

What is the difference?
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Passenger 57 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:59 pm

boronia wrote:I don't know how P2P legislation specifically affects these buses, but for normal buses/coaches:

Is there any relevant distinction between bus and coaches in the legislation? Having to book services makes these transport on demand services more like coaches
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Passenger 57 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:03 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:What is the difference?

It affects which hub you are forced to use.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Fleet Lists » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:42 pm

As far as I can see that would apply whether Carlingford is split into 2 zones or being served by 2 zones.

Zone 1 includes Carlingford and North Rocks and will connect you with Carlingford train station and M2 Oakes Road bus station
Zone 2 includes Carlingford, Beecroft and Epping and will connect you with Epping train station
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby boronia » Wed Jan 31, 2018 6:49 pm

Passenger 57 wrote:
boronia wrote:I don't know how P2P legislation specifically affects these buses, but for normal buses/coaches:

Is there any relevant distinction between bus and coaches in the legislation? Having to book services makes these transport on demand services more like coaches

There wasn't. The two terms seemed to be used interchangeably, depending on which part you read.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Glen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:16 pm

Passenger 57 wrote:Having to book services makes these transport on demand services more like coaches

Point to Point services have to be pre booked and cannot be hailed or take walk up passengers, or stand on a taxi rank ..... except that all of the preceding is permitted only by taxis.

On Demand buses are effectively operating in the same way as Uber or other ride share services.

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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Glen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:18 pm

There's a lot of government information on the web about the new Point to Point legislation. It's well worth a read to understand the difference between buses, taxis and ride share services.



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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Glen » Wed Jan 31, 2018 7:30 pm

Although it's not immediately obvious until you get into the app to make a booking the Hillsbus service is actually split into four routes, two in each zone.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Swift » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:04 pm

I wonder how they'll deal with problem passengers that demand to be taken directly to their destination before others even though it's not the predetermined route? I have seen one video of a Lyft pool driver in America copping horrid abuse from a woman trying to tell the driver to go the way she wants despite the navigator programme directing the car elsewhere to pick up another passenger first. She then storms out swearing away. I can imagine this happening with ODBs, especially after Friday night drinks.
Will OD bus drivers use GPS?
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Passenger 57 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 8:46 pm

Fleet Lists wrote:As far as I can see that would apply whether Carlingford is split into 2 zones or being served by 2 zones.

Really all I am saying is that the text definitions are ambigous. If all of Carlingford was served by both zones you would be able to be dropped off (and possibly picked up too?) wherever you lived in Carlingford in the PM runs whatever your preferred hub. Refer to the map to see the differently shaded areas from each zone.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Passenger 57 » Wed Jan 31, 2018 10:09 pm

Glen wrote:Point to Point services have to be pre booked and cannot be hailed or take walk up passengers

Which leads to the somewhat bizarre scenario that people unfamiliar with the service will ask the driver if they can be taken somewhere and told they'll have to book. There will then be a race between the person trying to madly submit their booking, other bookings and the scheduled departure of the van. In a more user friendly system, the driver would have asked the passenger where they wanted to go and possibly known the destination was on the way to the next booking or submitted the booking on behalf of the passenger. Hopefully, some drivers will allow some intending passengers to sit in the van and complete their bookings from there even after the van begins rolling based on their knowledge of the route and correspondingly passengers are happy to be cooperate if their booking is assigned to another or later van as their part of the bargain.

I imagine for the rules against hailing to be enforced, the crown would have to prove that the driver transported someone immediately after an in-person request. Is there a regulation that states the minimum period between a booking and transport? Or one that states drivers can't take a booking via personal request - which is not the case here anyway. There is no legislation that denies drivers the right to stop whenever they feel like it provided it is safe to do so. I can't see how a yarn with someone who waved at them could against the law either. I say the law is an ass because it is so readily circumvented.

If you ask me we should be trialling share taxis which work well in certain scenarios as well as this booking model, Bah, bugger trials, Just do it already and fix it later,
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby LB608 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:20 am

Do we know which depot the Transdev ones that operate on the shore return to each night?
Where do the Keolias Downer ones go of a night?
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Glen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 8:01 am

Passenger 57 wrote:
Glen wrote:Point to Point services have to be pre booked and cannot be hailed or take walk up passengers

Which leads to the somewhat bizarre scenario that people unfamiliar with the service will ask the driver if they can be taken somewhere and told they'll have to book.

I imagine for the rules against hailing to be enforced, the crown would have to prove that the driver transported someone immediately after an in-person request.


Much of what you describe applies equally to Uber. If you see an Uber car vacant you can't just hop in.

For more details see:
https://www.pointtopoint.nsw.gov.au

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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Swift » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:22 am

Glen wrote:
Much of what you describe applies equally to Uber. If you see an Uber car vacant you can't just hop in.


I have read on forums that some are touting for cash fares in Sydney. Probably rife IMO.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby LB608 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:43 am

I have walked straight out of Auckland International Airport to a Uber Taxi,didn't know it was Uber until i got in it
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Swift » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:47 am

LB608 wrote:I have walked straight out of Auckland International Airport to a Uber Taxi,didn't know it was Uber until i got in it

Are you talking about a legit taxi here? Uber have a taxi app.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Glen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:54 am

LB608 wrote:I have walked straight out of Auckland International Airport to a Uber Taxi,didn't know it was Uber until i got in it
The rules I am referring to apply in NSW.

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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Fleet Lists » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:01 pm

I was surprised that in https://transportnsw.info/travel-info/w ... -transport there are 11 such on demand services listed in Greater Sydney which includes Illawarra and Central Coast and two in Newcastle, one of which is bicycle based https://transportnsw.info/travel-info/w ... nd-service due to start in April 2018.

Newcastle eBike On Demand service

The On Demand eBike service for the Newcastle area is operated by BYKKO and begins from April 2018.

Electric bikes (eBikes) will be available for hire from 19 docking stations across Newcastle West, Newcastle East, The Junction and Newcastle CBD.
Hours of operation

eBike services are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Bookings and fares

You can book this service online by selecting a pick-up point and time within 15 to 60 minutes of pick-up. Bookings are subject to availability.

eBike hire costs are as follows:

A monthly membership is $49 which includes 60 minutes hire per day. Extended usage will be an additional $3.99 per 30 minutes.
A concession monthly is $24.50 which includes 30 minutes hire per day. Extended usage will be an additional $3.99 per 30 minutes.
A weekly membership is $22 which includes 30 minutes hire per day. Extended usage will be an additional $5.99 per 30 minutes.
Casual hire rate is $5.99 per 30 minutes plus $150 deposit.

A complimentary helmet will be attached to each eBike or available from select locations
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Glen » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:21 pm

That probably beats tripping over them in the street!

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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby Passenger 57 » Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:35 pm

I can't imagine the ebike trial getting much of a run at those prices apart for maybe commuters for whom the monthly deal works and that depends on the racks being located within convenient walking distance of peoples homes.

I have seen commuters using the rackless share bikes.

Its interesting to compare the prices with those offered by BYKKO directly. Those interested might enquire whether free member ships are still available in in their own trial which launched in Nov 2016.

More up to date information and cheaper short term pricing on http://swipenride.com.au/ which is another BYKKO site but no monthly pass offered here.
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Re: NSW On Demand Buses

Postby swtt » Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:41 am

Swift wrote:It's just a taxi service then, not a proper bus service.
It was explained once at a meeting I attended by an STA depot manager, that smaller buses are just no match for full size buses in durability.
Why had this simple fact disregarded now. Are the mechanical components beefed up in mini buses these days? I seriously doubt that!
This will be futile while they insist on repeating history.
But capped at $5 instead of the cost ballooning up quickly.

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