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F6, STM and rail tunnel

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Swift » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:31 pm

Tony Abbott canned federal funding to revive the line after winning office and known for being idealogically against federal funding of railways, but Mal is not.
I think the feds and the state will have to join forces to get this tragic ghost project finished, even if they have to make it non electric and single track to start with.
I think, as alluded to in the I M article, because it was a proposed goods only railway line, there just wasn't the impetus to get it built like a passenger link would enjoy, as there is no direct and apparent effect on most of the citizenry.
I think relentless media coverage showing the partly built line sitting wasted would go some way to shaming the government(s) to act.
Another obstacle I thought about is the possible need to knock down the half built bridge and start over as it is now an ageing design and there may not be the know how and components available to complete it consistent to that design, unless they can just graft the latest bridge building technology onto the existing structure. Wouldn't look pretty though.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby tonyp » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:04 pm

The present state government's attitude is that they're happy to build the line as long as it's privately funded by its freight users. (They should apply the same philosophy to motorways.)

Promoting passenger services on the line would undermine this strategy as then the privates would throw the matter back to the state.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Swift » Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:32 pm

A pity Neville and Barry didnt at least get the bridge and tunnel finished before Nick arrived!
Another Illawarra Mercury inaccuracy claiming Nick toppled Neville.
Nick would not likely have toppled the Labor in 88 had Neville stayed on.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby boronia » Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:29 pm

tonyp wrote:The present state government's attitude is that they're happy to build the line as long as it's privately funded by its freight users. (They should apply the same philosophy to motorways.)

Promoting passenger services on the line would undermine this strategy as then the privates would throw the matter back to the state.

Wouldn't this be an ARTC issue, as they now seem to be responsible for all improvements to the country rail network? Federal funding would then need to apply. The freight users would indirectly pay for it through access charges.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby tonyp » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:55 pm

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/stor ... ins/?cs=12

It seems that the rule for capacity nowadays at TfNSW is not how high the demand is but what time of day it is. If it's 1524 there must be no demand.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Swift » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:30 pm

Why don't they run V sets there? They have more seats I believe.
Why the insistence on making south coast services Oscar only?
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Campbelltown busboy » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:23 pm

Swift wrote:Why don't they run V sets there? They have more seats I believe.
Why the insistence on making south coast services Oscar only?
I've been at Strathfield around 9:30am and every second train though platform 3 would be a empty 8 car V set heading to the Flemington mantinace centre why would there be so many V sets heading to the mantinace centre after the morning peak some of those V sets Could be used on the South Coast line
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby mandonov » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:38 pm

So that they can run them to Bondi Junction instead of Sydney Terminal.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Liamena » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:46 pm

Swift wrote:Why don't they run V sets there? They have more seats I believe.
Why the insistence on making south coast services Oscar only?


The V sets don't have more seats than the Oscar, I don't think. The V sets are two seats either side of the aisle, the Oscars are 2 and 3. Although TBH I have not actually counted them,
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby boronia » Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:50 pm

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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby tonyp » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:38 pm

boronia wrote:Compare capacities here:
http://www.sydneytrains.info/about/fleet/v_sets

There are so many variables in these figures it's impossible to add up unless you know what the typical consist is made up of. However, the Oscar is designed like a suburban train so it's bound to have more capacity and more seats. The V sets are long distance trains and vastly more comfortable. It seems you can have one or the other, or logically you put more trains into service on the line.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Swift » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:51 pm

Ok, they are about the same, there you go. I have seen V sets running on the ESR before, but only once or twice a day.
I think it is inexcusable to run any four car service during peak. South Coast seems to be the poor cousin to CCN and BM services.
They need to resurrect the original alignment at Helensburgh and duplicate Coledale tunnel to reduce slow points on the line. The Helensburgh diversion could be used for 'disruptive goods trains to allow passenger services to pass.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Frosty » Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:54 pm

tonyp wrote:http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/story/4828239/taking-a-stand-on-overcrowded-south-coast-trains/?cs=12

It seems that the rule for capacity nowadays at TfNSW is not how high the demand is but what time of day it is. If it's 1524 there must be no demand.


I swear not to long ago but they changed the T4 timetable & SCO timetable slightly so there would be less suburban customers using the 1524 by having some more Hurstville all-stops & express Cronulla/Waterfall and making it pick up only until Helensburgh.

Got to factor in the V sets aren't the most reliable train, age & lack some important features such as selective door opening. I say its similar to how Sydney trains doesn't use C&K sets on weekends. I've seen the Oscar's a few early morning/peak services on the T4 /SCO are used as a hybrid suburban all stops/limited stops train & intercity. Since CCN & BM are more seperate to their suburban cousins compared to the SCO & T4 Line.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby boronia » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:00 pm

There are hybrid Oscar runs PM on T1-CCN Springwood/Emu Plains all to Blacktown, Parra, Strath, Redfern, Central then up the Shore to Wyong. Similar patterns the other way in AM.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby tonyp » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:03 pm

Frosty wrote:Got to factor in the V sets aren't the most reliable train, age & lack some important features such as selective door opening.

I don't care if they were built in 1873 and have wooden swing doors, they're the most comfortable and quietest trains in Australia.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby rogf24 » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:05 pm

In the AM peak, there's an OSCAR service which runs from the Wyong leaving at 6:05am to Springwood via the city arriving at 9:17am.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Transtopic » Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:34 pm

The capacity of V sets and Oscars may be similar, but bear in mind an 8 car V set is nominally 40m longer than an 8 car Oscar, which is equivalent to a 10 car Oscar. That's one reason why it's problematic in running V sets on the underground with 160m platforms.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby tonyp » Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:08 am

Transtopic wrote:The capacity of V sets and Oscars may be similar, but bear in mind an 8 car V set is nominally 40m longer than an 8 car Oscar, which is equivalent to a 10 car Oscar. That's one reason why it's problematic in running V sets on the underground with 160m platforms.

Many years ago, during one of the network's many operational crises over the years when everything fell apart, I rode a V set into Sydney which was diverted through to Bondi Junction (which is where I actually wanted to go). It was the nicest, quietest ride I've had on ever had on the underground! But by your figures it must have been a six car set unless people at the ends walked to other doors. It certainly wasn't a short train as I recall, being a peak service.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Linto63 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:10 pm

tonyp wrote:
Frosty wrote:Got to factor in the V sets aren't the most reliable train, age & lack some important features such as selective door opening.

I don't care if they were built in 1873 and have wooden swing doors, they're the most comfortable and quietest trains in Australia.
Woah there! Tony did a NSW transport authority actually manage to get something right? This will have to go straight to the pool room. :D

The V sets were undoubtedly world class when built and a credit to Comeng and the NSWGR, but with the oldest survivors approaching 40 years of age and the youngest nearly 30, they are showing their age. While the recent refurbishment has given them a new lease of life, the ride quality does appear not quite what it was, although this obviously could be to do with the infrastructure on which they operate. A degree of jerkiness seems to have crept in when building up speed, guess this could be a result of mixing camshaft and chopper powercars.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Swift » Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:07 pm

^ probably mainly due to age and the removal of the old double glazed windows which orovided a luxuriously quiet ride that rivalled a Lexus LS400 on baby smooth bitumen!
The quality of passenger was vastly superior in their first decade of service too.
I used to see them as an oasis from the general dross that travelled on suburban services when catching them from the city to Eastwood in the eighties.
It is almost the other way now!!
At least the plum interior refurbs have somewhat restored the sound deadening.
Unfortunately the undesirable element haven't gone anywhere and it does ruin the image of the trains
themselves.
I prefer an Oscar when riding Central Coast services precisely because they feel like a suburban. Sad isn't it.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby boronia » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:19 pm

The V set cars can be quite noisy in the end sections. Bogie/drawgear/track noise, and often very loud a/c equipment, are a deterrent to riding there.

Upstairs saloon definitely the best experience. zzzzzzzzzz
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Swift » Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:40 pm

boronia wrote:
Upstairs saloon definitely the best experience. zzzzzzzzzz

Stands to reason as it is physically removed from the sources of noise. That was the reason I always chose the top deck.
The first batch from 1970 had a much dowdier looking interior fitout accompanied by the drone of air duct fans whirring away.
It was a good thing they waited another seven years with the much
improved and impressive interior of the subsequent batches from 1977 that we
enjoy today.
PS: the original 1970 sets were the best looking on the outside at least.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Linto63 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:39 pm

Swift wrote:
boronia wrote:PS: the original 1970 sets were the best looking on the outside at least.
Agree, the blue and grey goose fronts were the best coupled with the clean lines not punctuated by DDA painted doors. The replacement of double glazing would explain why they don't seem as quiet as they used to, although I guess when they did enter service they were just so much quieter than anything else that it was probably just relative to everything else.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Transtopic » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:21 pm

Linto63 wrote:The replacement of double glazing would explain why they don't seem as quiet as they used to, although I guess when they did enter service they were just so much quieter than anything else that it was probably just relative to everything else.

Now being retired, I occasionally travel to the CBD from Eastwood or Epping and I prefer to catch a V set, even though I usually have to change at Central to continue into the CBD and the same for the return journey. I think they're marvellous and I hope that the new Intercity trains will be at least equal to that standard. If it's an Oscar standard, then I'm afraid they've lost me.
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Re: F6, STM and rail tunnel

Postby Linto63 » Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:46 pm

Back when the V set replacement program was announced, Gladys wearing her transport minister's hat did admit that the Oscars were inappropriate for the long distance services they operate, so hopefully these thoughts will turn into action. That said Oscars continue to be rostered for many weekend services on the short north on weekends while V sets are laid up.

The removal of V sets from South Coast services was certainly a dumbing down of the service and the use of suburban Tangaras on 2 hour Bondi Junction - Wollongong services is fairly poor.
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