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2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Sydney / New South Wales Transport Discussion

Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby aman » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:11 am

Fleet Lists wrote:
aman wrote:
The whole of South Western Sydney lost access to Redfern for more than a decade and the world moved on. Complete non-issue.

Not the whole of South Western Sydney - only the East Hills/Campbelltown line. The Bankstown/Liverpool line was not effected.


That's exactly what I mean. Bankstown is not South Western Sydney (no matter how much the media tries to convey this).
South-Western Sydney in my opinion is Liverpool and Campbelltown councils (although I'm not too sure that anything north of Liverpool should be counted).

Anyway names of regions aside, my point stands. They're advocating for the Blue Mountains line to stop at Redfern. Besides 1 hr in morning peaks (not even the whole peak period), and only for stations before Revesby (excluding Macquarie Fields) is there an direct service on the East Hills line.

Yet nothing is said about that? Uni students often don't have 9-5 classes, so I would think that those direct trains often do not help.

Now going back to the Blue Mountains line, how many people get off at Redfern from stations before Emu Plains? Only those should be counted. The rest have access to a T1 service should use that. I would wager alot less than Usyd has specified.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby tonyp » Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:36 am

If it wasn't for the planning-on-the-run practised in NSW, a more clear-thinking approach to this issue would have been for the Rouse Hill-Bankstown metro to go via Sydney University and the ultimate extension of the Parramatta-Sydney metro towards Malabar to go via the Waterloo route. As it stands, it's all arse-about and pretty impractical to take the Parramatta metro through the city, to then zig zag to Sydney University and then out to Malabar. What will happen in the future is that somebody will realise this and unplug the relevant section of one line and plug it into the other and vice versa - at great expense.

Meantime, I can't see what's wrong with having all trains stop at Redfern. The services are all so damn slow it's not going to make any difference anyway.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby moa999 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:19 am

There are detailed reports on the station selection process in which Waterloo just scored higher than Sydney Uni.

Personally think they should have created a Waterloo station on the Airport Line, thus enabling Sydnney Uni on Metro, but this opportunity has passed

There is a perfect straight section just near two dilapidated government owned tower blocks.

As for Redfern there is obviously a wholesale revamp of the station required to make it fully accessible and increase the size of the concourse.
Successive governments have kicked this can down the road and having the Metro avoid Redfern pushes it further away (compared to Central Walk for example)
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:26 am

boronia wrote:I just read a response from ST/TfNSW on FB where they now claim that that Redfern was deleted for "safety reasons". All those people getting off BMT trains onto an empty platform 1 were at great risk.

What about all the people from the Central Coast and South Coast trains that still stop at platform 1 at Redfern?...

I'm not too fussed about the removal of Redfern, but what I found outrageous is the lies that are being told to justify it.

Saying that more BMT commuters go on to Central over Redfern is obscuring the fact that far more commuters alighted at Redfern than Strathfield. Many more would alight at Town Hall over Central if given the opportunity. The Opal data probably doesn't show the number of customers alighting at Redfern to change there forCity Circle or Eastern Suburbs trains.

Saying that removing Redfern speeds up the trip for BMT customers is also a lie. The journey to Central takes longer under the new timetable and has an added stop at Blacktown. If they're suggesting the Opal data shows more BMT commuters want to go to Blacktown over Redfern (or even Lidcombe), I think they need to double check that data.
Last edited by andy_centralcoast on Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Dec 03, 2017 11:47 am

aman wrote:That's exactly what I mean. Bankstown is not South Western Sydney (no matter how much the media tries to convey this).
South-Western Sydney in my opinion is Liverpool and Campbelltown councils (although I'm not too sure that anything north of Liverpool should be counted).


You admit yourself that you are wrong as you include Liverpool in South West and it is covered through the Bankstown Line.
And I have lived in Bankstown and it was undoubtedly considered South West irrespective of your opinion.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby boronia » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:07 pm

In the days of trams, those far flung outposts like Earlwood and Canterbury were considered "south-west".
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby simonl » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:24 pm

aman wrote:That's exactly what I mean. Bankstown is not South Western Sydney (no matter how much the media tries to convey this).
South-Western Sydney in my opinion is Liverpool and Campbelltown councils (although I'm not too sure that anything north of Liverpool should be counted).

Curious as to what you would call Fairfield.

Beyond Liverpool might be termed outer SW.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby tonyp » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:31 pm

The BTS station barrier count data, unfortunately not updated since 2014, shows Redfern as having the largest passenger movements in NSW through it after Central, Town Hall, Wynyard, Parramatta and North Sydney (just). No other station on the system comes near it. It handles more traffic than stations for entire suburban and intercity CBDs with all their multiplicity of activities. Yet it's not important enough for every train to stop there?

It is also an interchange for Illawarra and South Coast.

I wasn't aware that Campbelltown trains don't stop there. That doesn't mean that's good, it means that they should stop there. It's a pity that the Bankstown conversion to metro misses Redfern. It really should have gone via Sydney University. People are really underestimating the significance of universities as activity nodes.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby Fleet Lists » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:35 pm

tonyp wrote:I wasn't aware that Campbelltown trains don't stop there. That doesn't mean that's good, it means that they should stop there. It's a pity that the Bankstown conversion to metro misses Redfern. It really should have gone via Sydney University. People are really underestimating the significance of universities as activity nodes.

The Campbelltown trains not stopping at Redfern are those via East Hills and the Airport.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby Geo101 » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:42 pm

From https://transportnsw.info

07:44 departure stop name Springwood Station, Platform 1 Springwood (Stop ID 2777191)

Blue Mountains Line towards Central

09:06 stop name Central Station, Platform 6, suburb Sydney trip leg

Walk 11min (887m)

arrival time 09:18 arrival stop name University of Technology Sydney, Broadway, Ultimo

I won't add the option to take a bus from railway square to Broadway, because there are simply too many buses to select. About one every 2-3 minutes at that time of the day.

If the numbers were truly that large, they would already have bus services from Redfern?

EDIT: Straight from the web site

Central station is a 15-minute walk along City Road and George Street; however, buses to and from Central are frequent and easy to catch from Parramatta Road or City Road.

https://sydney.edu.au/campus-life/getti ... sport.html
Last edited by Geo101 on Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby aman » Sun Dec 03, 2017 12:59 pm

tonyp wrote:The BTS station barrier count data, unfortunately not updated since 2014, shows Redfern as having the largest passenger movements in NSW through it after Central, Town Hall, Wynyard, Parramatta and North Sydney (just). No other station on the system comes near it. It handles more traffic than stations for entire suburban and intercity CBDs with all their multiplicity of activities. Yet it's not important enough for every train to stop there?

It is also an interchange for Illawarra and South Coast.

I wasn't aware that Campbelltown trains don't stop there. That doesn't mean that's good, it means that they should stop there. It's a pity that the Bankstown conversion to metro misses Redfern. It really should have gone via Sydney University. People are really underestimating the significance of universities as activity nodes.


Yes Campbelltown trains (direct) do stop there arriving at Redfern at 07:29, 07:44, 07:59, 08:14, 08:29, 08:44 city bound. In the other direction 16:36, 16:51, 17:06, 17:21, 17:36, 17:51, 18:06, 18:21. All other times via Airport.
So I guess it is a bit different as Redfern is not skipped on the T8, it's just that the line doesn't go through Redfern at all. Unless you are going to the first class and not leaving until at least past 16:00, these times won't suit and you'll have to change at Wolli Creek anyway.

Now in the offpeak, to get the trains to stop Redfern from Campbelltown, it would mean a reduction on the Airport line or to run more than 8tph on that line. Then also, what about Padstow to Turella? Should they undo what the Kingsgrove to Revesby quad is meant to fix for Sydney Uni? How about Mascot / Green Square (Good luck) ? I'm sure they have some students there.

My point is, people have been interchanging to get to Redfern (or any destination when required), if they can do it then so can people on Blue Mountains trains. You can't have all trains stop at Redfern no matter how big the uni is.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby tonyp » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:39 pm

I'm starting to understand Sydney University's frustration. Yes of course they would recommend walking or bussing from Central when they don't have their own immediate railway station - the travel options then have to be spread over a number of alternatives which they describe on their website. They run an evening shuttle bus to and from Redfern, presumably for safety reasons.

I note that the number of people using Redfern increased by nearly 20,000 a day between 2004 and 2014. I'm sure the extras weren't lured by Redfern's milkbars alone.
Last edited by tonyp on Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby boronia » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:41 pm

Any train should be able to stop at Redfern. As mentioned, a slight delay for terminating UP trains does does not affect their subsequent running and there are no platform issues, and down trains can simply be timed to depart 1-2 minutes earlier without affecting their slots in the rest of the network.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby Aurora » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:08 pm

boronia wrote:[...] and down trains can simply be timed to depart 1-2 minutes earlier without affecting their slots in the rest of the network.

Which then potentially affects the paths of trains arriving into the yard few minutes before.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby boronia » Sun Dec 03, 2017 2:27 pm

Some platform rearrangement would mostly solve that problem.

I can find only 15 intercity services arriving at Central (i) between 0700 and 0900, and priorities for arrival/departure can be adjusted.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby mandonov » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:15 pm

I question why the Uni didn't kick up a stink a month ago when the timetable was leaked and still had somewhat of a chance to change.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby Tonymercury » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:26 pm

mandonov wrote:I question why the Uni didn't kick up a stink a month ago when the timetable was leaked and still had somewhat of a chance to change.


It wasn't leaked, it was released for public comment.

Which makes no difference to your point.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby tonyp » Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:58 pm

Tonymercury wrote:
mandonov wrote:I question why the Uni didn't kick up a stink a month ago when the timetable was leaked and still had somewhat of a chance to change.


It wasn't leaked, it was released for public comment.

Which makes no difference to your point.

The university is a big bureaucracy like other large organisations. It probably slipped under the radar. Their often-vocal Transport and Logistics Institute could have been onto this for them if they weren't so busy looking for BRT opportunities. :roll:
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby Tonymercury » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:28 pm

tonyp wrote: Their often-vocal Transport and Logistics Institute could have been onto this for them if they weren't so busy looking for BRT opportunities. :roll:


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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby boronia » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:39 pm

Tonymercury wrote:
mandonov wrote:I question why the Uni didn't kick up a stink a month ago when the timetable was leaked and still had somewhat of a chance to change.


It wasn't leaked, it was released for public comment.

Which makes no difference to your point.

I think TfNSW is pretty much oblivious to public comment, no matter how high up the chain it comes from.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby andy_centralcoast » Sun Dec 03, 2017 4:52 pm

Tonymercury wrote:
mandonov wrote:I question why the Uni didn't kick up a stink a month ago when the timetable was leaked and still had somewhat of a chance to change.

It wasn't leaked, it was released for public comment.

I wouldn't really call that "operator draft" a request for public comment though.

If I remember correctly, the last new timetable with an official public consultation period was back in 2009 for the integration of the ECRL.

Feedback was solicited almost 12 months before the proposed new timetable was to be implemented. Copies of the draft new timetable were available at stations, as well as online, and there was an advertising campaign encouraging people to review the draft and provide their feedback.

They even published a list of all the changes that were made as a result of the community feedback. Many of the tweaks were based on feedback from schools and some services were adjusted to better suit student travel patterns.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby boronia » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:01 pm

Geo101 wrote:From https://transportnsw.info

07:44 departure stop name Springwood Station, Platform 1 Springwood (Stop ID 2777191)
Blue Mountains Line towards Central
09:06 stop name Central Station, Platform 6, suburb Sydney trip leg
Walk 11min (887m)
arrival time 09:18 arrival stop name University of Technology Sydney, Broadway, Ultimo
I won't add the option to take a bus from railway square to Broadway, because there are simply too many buses to select. About one every 2-3 minutes at that time of the day.
If the numbers were truly that large, they would already have bus services from Redfern?
EDIT: Straight from the web site

This is for the UTS (which is on Broadway and down into Ultimo), almost opp Central Station. One bus stop from Railway Square.). It is different to UoS, which would be a 15-30 minute walk from Central, depending on which part of the campus you needed to go to. There are plenty of buses from Railway Square which serve the City Rd or Parramatta Rd entrances. Access time from Redfern would again depend on which part of the campus you need to get to. Much of the Darlington area, to the east of City Rd, is used by the Uni now.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby Newcastle Flyer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:13 pm

tonyp wrote:Meantime, I can't see what's wrong with having all trains stop at Redfern. The services are all so damn slow it's not going to make any difference anyway.

So according to you the XPT's, Xplorers & the Indian Pacific should stop at Redfern. Remember you said ALL trains.

To get to the uni, just go to Central, then get the multitude of buses - some bus routes especially for the university.
Interurban trains are meant for a purpose, as longer distance runs, not designed for suburban travel.

But I thought this was about the recent chances.

Trains
The 05:03 Wickham to Central now the fastest express even at 2hr 23min travel time can be save a bit of more time if it needed to, as it's been almost 3 minutes early at a number of stations. And yes there was & is "crowing" about not stopping at Cardiff & Fassifern, hardly any passengers at the two even with a train about 19 minutes after it.
What I can't understand is the next train is a semi-express stopping at only three extra stations, but takes 12 minutes longer. How can skipping just three stations add up to saving of 12 minutes, especially when the now fastest express is meant to take a minute longer between Wickham & Hamilton?

But that 2hr 23min time is still about 6 or so minutes slower than the former 08:00 weekday up train when it took only 2hr 21min from the REAL Newcastle Station to Central.

Buses
With the proposed route changes for Newcastle Transport, with some exceptions, I think it'll drive more people away from public transport, but it has both good & bad points. It's not really that passengers in most cases will have to change buses on what are now direct bus routes, but the number of times a passenger will now have to change. The one direct bus route will now require 3 or even 5 buses - even for high demand bus routes.
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby Hendikins » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:12 pm

Newcastle Flyer wrote:Trains
What I can't understand is the next train is a semi-express stopping at only three extra stations, but takes 12 minutes longer. How can skipping just three stations add up to saving of 12 minutes, especially when the now fastest express is meant to take a minute longer between Wickham & Hamilton?


This particular service is required to be operated by an Oscar and run to white speed boards (to 130km/h max).
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Re: 2017 Train & Bus timetable changes

Postby swtt » Sun Dec 03, 2017 8:25 pm

Hendikins wrote:
Newcastle Flyer wrote:Trains
What I can't understand is the next train is a semi-express stopping at only three extra stations, but takes 12 minutes longer. How can skipping just three stations add up to saving of 12 minutes, especially when the now fastest express is meant to take a minute longer between Wickham & Hamilton?


This particular service is required to be operated by an Oscar and run to white speed boards (to 130km/h max).


Why don't other Oscar services run to white speed boards?
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